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Limited vs unlimited atonement?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Fish14, May 9, 2017.

  1. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    And my point is, those who believe are saved.
    • lest they should believe and be saved.
    • Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.
    who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

    12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13


    A person who believes for a while, then no longer believes, is no longer a believer.



    JLB
     
  2. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    You bring up a good point saying, 'lest they should believe and be saved'

    John uses Isaiah to talk about why those who believe in Christ, believe, and why those who do not believe, don't believe.

    Simply those who do not believe, to them the arm of the LORD has not been revealed, He is hidden from them, not revealed, refer Luke 10:21-22.

    God has not chosen them, so the unbelievers minds are blinded by Satan, refer 2 Corinthians 4:3-6.
    Since God has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, lest they should see, understand, turn and believe.

    John 12
    37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:

    “Lord, who has believed our report?
    And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

    39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:

    40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
    Lest they should see with their eyes,
    Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
    So that I should heal them.”

    41 These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.
     
  3. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I said this:
    "This is tantamount to enduring in order to save yourself. It was Jesus Christ who "endured the shame" to save us."
    Those who understand what context is knows what this verse is about.

    What you've failed to show so far is that "believing for a while" means "saved for a while", esp since Paul described the gift of eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and then he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

    Further, Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28.

    Those verses are very clear and in plain language. They teach eternal security.

    Not conditional security based on what you do or do not do.

    Failure to prove from Scripture.
     
  4. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Rom 1:19-20 tell us the ways that God has taught everyone. Creation reveals His eternal power and divine nature.

    True. But it doesn't mean they lack anything. It means they aren't interested in learning. Just like students in any school setting. There are those who want to learn, and those who couldn't care less.

    So you don't think "not being chosen" isn't a valid reason, if it were true? Why not?

    Other equally sinful people WERE chosen. So what's the difference between those going to heaven and those going to hell, in reformed perspective? Who was chosen by God. That's the excuse.

    But the Scriptures make it clear that no one has any excuse because the grace of God has brought salvation to everyone. Titus 2:11

    The only excuse for ending up in hell is because of refusing the free gift.
     
  5. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Those who have rejected Scripture are not wise.

    Let's consider all the verse says about what God desires and requires.
    Hos 6:6
    For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings.

    iow, God doesn't want lip service (burnt offerings apart from acknowledgement of Himself).

    Your aversion to sacrifice only reveals an ignorance or rejection of Scripture.

    Why does Hebrews mention sacrifice 13 times?

    Why make up stuff? That's not what Hos 6:6 says. It's about lip service, which God does NOT desire.

    How do you explain what Christ said?
    Heb 10:5-9
    5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; 6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7 Then I said, 'Here I am — it is written about me in the scroll — I have come to do your will, O God.'" 8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made).

    And then -
    9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
     
  6. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Why can't you prove from Scripture that one who believes for a while is only saved for a while???

    Because the Bible never teaches that. Instead, the Bible teaches that those who receive the gift of eternal life will never perish. That's eternal security. Jn 10:28

    And, that eternal life is a gift of God (Rom 6:23) and the gifts of God are irrevocable (Rom 11:29). Again, eternal security.

    That's why no one can prove conditional security from Scripture. It ain't there.
     
  7. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    Just clarify- you don't believe that the One who began a good work in us will necessaily carry it through to the end?

    While the "P" stands for the perseverance of the saints - most any Reformed teacher would nuance that in their teaching to really be saying that it is the perseverance of God - since He is the one working in believers to bring glory to Himself through them.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2017
  8. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    Because God says no man will have an excuse for starters.

    Secondarily because the fallen angels were not chosen for salvation and they have no excuse and will be dealt with accordingly in righteousness.
    Exactly - I don't believe in limited atonement.

    Some refuse that grace as we well know from scripture.

    If some are (by grace) given ears to hear - the ones who lack the ears because of their ever increasingly having been rightly abandoned by God for their sins (as per Romans 1) - they will have no excuse.

    Jealousy is but one more sin - is it not?

    For the record - I would be jealous and field their same objection. But, according to what God has told us clearly, they will have no excuse - that excuse or otherwise.

    The angels will have no excuse and they weren't even offered salvation at all.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2017
  9. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    The context is that no man has any excuse for not recognizing God as Creator, and being thankful to Him.

    That doesn't lead to heaven, of course. And since all who will go to heaven are sinners, those not chosen to go to heaven will have an excuse, if it were true that God chooses who will believe (foundation of reformed election).

    However, God DOES choose who will go to heaven. Believers only. And a big difference between that fact and the foundation of reformed election.

    Huh? There is no mention of angel salvation in Scripture.

    How does that square with the idea that God chooses who will believe?

    But, if they weren't "given ears to hear", or simply weren't chosen, that is exactly their excuse.

    The "no excuse" of Rom 1 has nothing to do with why people end up in hell.
     
  10. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    True - All who will go to Heaven are sinners deserving of judgment just as those who will not go to Heaven.

    Of the same lump of clay ("sinning clay") God has the right to do as He wishes. That would be true even if they had never sinned and it is doubly true, if you will, of those who have.

    The judgement of God toward sin is, among other things, abandonment to unbelief (Romans 1). If God chooses in grace to act within some so that they will come to Christ and pass others by in abandonment - He has that right.

    There is no doubt in my mind that those so passed by will try to use the excuse of "But you had mercy on my neighbor - therefore you owe me mercy as well". But it will not fly since they are sinners and anything God does or does not choose to do with them is His preogative as the one whom they have sinned against.

    Further sill - God would have the right to do with His craation whatever He wants even if they had never sinned.
    No - God chooses unbelievers to become believers. The choice or lack of choice we are talking about here is a choice by God before anyone becomes a believer.

    One becomes a believer by coming to the Lord as He has told us. One comes to the Lord because he has been given and drawn to the Lord by His Father.

    The choice God makes to give and draw a sinner to the Lord is made before that person has become a believer by responding to that drawing.

    Therefore - God chooses unbelievers to be saved, not believers.

    It's a clever slight of tongue to say that God chooses believers. That is because it is true that we believers are the ones who were given and drawn by God.

    But we were not believers when God made His choices as any logical construct will show.

    That is the point of contention here.
    Obviously.

    And there is no mention of salvation for those not given and drawn by the Father to the Son.

    The point is that neither the lack of an offer of salvation to sinful angels or the passing by of sinners who have been offered salvation will form a workable excuse on the day of judgement.
    Not sure what you mean by "square". But the choice to not believe is their own choice.

    The fact that God chose not to give to them a new nature which would choose to believe does not change that one bit.
    Undoubtedly that will be their excuse and it will not fly.
    "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."
    Romans 1:18-20

    They are without excuse for suppressing the truth in unrighteousness resulting in all ungodliness and unrighteousness - resulting in the righteous judgement which ensued because of.

    The reason they are without excuse is that God has revealed Himself to them through nature and, seeing that, they should have remained Godly and righteous.

    The wrath of God being revealed against them is abandonment to unbelief and an ever excalating sinfulness.

    His wrath is righteous and therefor, if He chooses to leave them in their abandoned condition rather than choose to give and draw them to the Lord, they are without excuse come final judgement as well.

    I know that it is human nature to judge what would and would not be righteous for God to do. But the simple fact is that we are the creation and He is the creator. Everything He chooses to do is righteous simply because He is God and He is the standard by which righteousness is guaged.

     
    Last edited: May 27, 2017
  11. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    No argument.

    If He did that, those not chosen would have an excuse for going to hell.

    He would still be providing an excuse for those not chosen.

    No. It will not fly because God has revealed His eternal power and divine nature to everyone, so that no one has an excuse. And esp so since the free gift of eternal life is available to everyone.

    Not an issue.

    What verse or passage says this?

    Where?

    Nope. He was taught and he paid attention. Like Cornelius.

    The Bible says that God is pleased to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21. I'll bet there are no verses that say what you've just said.

    It's biblical. 1 Cor 1:21 says God is pleased to save those who believe. Now, does it make sense to think that God didn't choose to save those who believe? He was pleased to do so, so of course He chose to do so.

    Belief comes from the heart. God chooses to save those who believe "from the heart".

    The reason there won't be any excuse for those cast into the lake of fire is because Christ purchased the gift of eternal life for them but they either rejected the gift outright, or just weren't interested in it.

    How does that work IF God chooses who will believe? There can be no choice of their own, if God is making the choice for them.

    Now that changes the discussion to a different subject; which came first; chicken or the egg. No, no, no. That's not it. Oh yeah, which came first; belief or regeneration. They occur at the same time. But Eph 2:5 and 8 shows that faith results in regeneration.

    Right. And...they rejected the free gift of eternal life.
     
  12. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    The condition to have eternal life is believe.

    Those who believe for a while, then no longer believe, are no longer believers.

    Are you attempting to teach this Forum that someone who no longer believes, is still somehow a "believer'?


    • Romans 6:23 does not say eternal life is a gift of God.
    Here is Romans 6:23 -

    For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

    You left out the part that says the wages of sin is death, which is found by reading the context and warning from Paul to Christians who live their life practicing the unrighteous deeds of sin, by presenting themselves as slaves to the flesh, to practice the works of the flesh.

    16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
    Romans 6:16

    You also left out that eternal life is "in Christ Jesus our Lord", which is crucial to understand, that we are to remain in Christ Jesus as a branch is to remain in the vine or wither and be cast into the fire and burned.

    Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;...
    If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:2,6

    Just because a person comes to be "in Him" for a while, doesn't necessarily mean they will remain in Him. We must remain in Him or wither and be cast into the fire and burned.

    What is the outcome of a branch that is thrown into the fire and burned?


    • Romans 11:29 doesn't say the gifts of God are irrevocable.
    Here is what Romans 11;29 actually says -

    29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

    This verse doesn't say the gift of God is eternal life and is irrevocable.

    This verse says the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Obviously if a person has the calling of repentance still available to them, as the context shows [unbelieving Jews], then they do not have eternal life.

    28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
    Romans 11:28-29

    Though they are enemies of the Gospel, they still have the calling the repent and believe the Gospel.
    But they don't have eternal life life.

    If you believe unsaved Jews who still have the call to repent and believe the Gospel, somehow have eternal life, then please provide the scriptures that teach us "unsaved Jew" can have eternal life.


    You however, have taken a "part' of one verse, and a part of another verse, while disregarding the rest of the verse and ignoring the surrounding context, to create a "Frankenstein" mix and match doctrine that is not found in the bible.



    JLB
     
  13. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    You have failed to provide and scripture, so I will just consider that you have no scriptural support for your theory.


    JLB
     
  14. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Which contradicts the poster you seem to be defending, who points to sins being forgiven without shedding of blood. Meanwhile, your statement that "sins weren't forgiven until the atonement was made in the law, not before," is correct insofar as sins could not be forgiven without an atonement, but it is incorrect if meaning that every sins awaited an sacrifice being presently made for that sin.

    The Lord told David, for one, that He has put away his sin upon David's contrite confession and before any atonement under the Law was offered, yet God required blood atonement to be made for all of Israel's sin, and which pointed to Christ, under which God could forgive sins at any time.
    Obviously if one received forgiveness before the required atonement was made, then one is receiving something now before the required atonement was made.

    Christ never told any of those forgiven to sacrifice any atonement because He would make that atonement, and thus what He told souls was to believe on Him. That Christ made the atonement and thus souls are forgiven who believe on Him is indisputable and the two obviously go together:

    For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (Mark 10:45)

    For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

    And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:46-47)

    And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;...To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:39-40,43)

    Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (Romans 3:25)

    For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. (Romans 5:10-11)

    For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. (Romans 6:10)

    For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; (1 Corinthians 15:3)

    In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; (Ephesians 1:7)

    In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: (Colossians 1:14)

    And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. (Hebrews 9:22)

    And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; (Hebrews 10:11-12)

    Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, (Hebrews 10:19)

    Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, (Hebrews 10:19)

    Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (1 Peter 2:24)

    For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: (1 Peter 3:18)

    But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; (Hebrews 10:12)

    Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, (Hebrews 10:19)

    Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)

    And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, (Revelation 1:5)

    Remember these in my response to your denial of Christ being a sin offering below. Either Jesus death was that sin offering and is essential for forgiveness or it was superfluous, take your pick.

    Not a problem at all, for here the fact that God can forgive - even if He can withhold such if one is not acting consistent with saving faith, which effects repentance and obedience - is because He has provided for sins being forgiven via the atonement.

    Repentance and belief go together, repentant faith being what appropriates justification and is salvific:

    The Lord is nigh unto them that are of a broken heart; and saveth such as be of a contrite spirit. (Psalms 34:18)

    I deal more with this two-sided coin later on, so see there.
    Really? You mean Scripture is lying when is says He bore and suffered/died for our sins after being delivered by the priests? just what kind of difference do you see that would change this?

    And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering. (Leviticus 16:5)

    And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat. And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. (Leviticus 16:7-10)

    Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: (Leviticus 16:15)

    And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: (Leviticus 16:21)

    And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the Lord commanded Moses. (Leviticus 16:34)

    Christ was thus both offerings, the scapegoat and sin offering, which is corespondent to Isaiah 53, which you must also deny refers to Christ making atonement as a sin offering:

    All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:6)

    Jesus did not talk about His cross, instead, He talked about the disciples taking up their own cross. If anything, Jesus was telling the disciples to 'sacrifice' themselves.

    Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul [life] an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. (Isaiah 53:10)

    Thus Christ said He was a ransom, and because of his death remission of sins is provided for, and Paul affirms that He died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and by His blood we have forgiveness, and Peter affirms He bore our sins and suffered/died for them, and Hebrews states he offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, and thus by His sacrifice sins can be actually taken away and access into Heaven obtained, and John states He made atonement, and by His blood believers wash their sins away, and Phillip affirms the suffering scapegoat and sin offering of Is. 53 speaks of Christ:

    The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth: In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth. And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. (Acts 8:32-35)
    Because He made atonement as the sin offering who bore our sins and died for them at the hands of priests (if via the Romans), Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (Romans 3:25,26)
    Repentance is a result of belief, and in fact all we do is a result of what we really believe, at least at the moment.

    One has a change of heart in response to what he believes. in this case that he is a damned destitute sinner in need of salvation (a change from believing he is not), and who thus must believe on the Lord Jesus to save him, and which belief is itself an act of repentance, a change of heart.

    And which means that salvific belief and repentance are inseparable, and the words can be used for one another, one cannot have one without the other, one cannot believe without repentance, and to repent requires belief, but it is repentant faith which purifies the heart, appropriates justification and is counted for righteousness.

    To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. (Acts 10:43)

    And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. (Acts 15:8-9)

    When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. (Acts 11:18)

    In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise. (Ephesians 1:13)

    Repent ye therefore [contextually as a consequence of evidence Christ is Lord], and be converted [an act of repentant faith], that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; (Acts 3:19)

    He that believeth [with Biblical repentant faith, which characteristically continues] on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)

    Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. (Acts 20:21)

    Thus the words are used interchangeably, but as repentance is an effect, with faith being its cause, however, repentant faith does not merit forgiveness, "but to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." (Romans 4:5)

    Such saving faith is that which effects obedience, and thus sometimes salvation is promised by if one will do sometime (baptism, confess) since such testifies to them being believers. It is only the kind of faith which will confess Christ in word and in deed that is counted for righteousness, though as seen in Acts 10, God, who opens the heart, and gives faith and grants repentance, sees saving faith in the heart before there is outward response, and purifies the heart by such faith.
    Of course man no longer had to bring anything to be sacrificed, for God hath set forth Christ "a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God."(Romans 3:25)

    In response to which our whole life is to be a sacrifice, is not a sin offering.
    Not sure where you are going with this but yes, For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:3-4)

    I already have shown requirements of sin offering for the people in the dy of atonement, while if what you quote (which refers to sins through ignorance) excludes anything that differs from it as being a sin offering (as Lv. 4:23 does where it is a male goat, not female), then any such that differ are. However, there is not need to go thru the 107 OT references to sin offering as it is clearly stated and shon that Christ is the sin offering which all such pointed to, and thus you either let the Holy Spirit interpret Himself or you must contradict Him.

    Just a few more:

    Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. (Hebrews 7:27)

    Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh: How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (Hebrews 9:12-14)

    Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. (Hebrews 9:25-26)

    And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Hebrews 9:27-28)

    But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; (Hebrews 10:12)

    Or do you pick and choose from the Bible what books you hold to be inspired of God? What is the name of your cult?
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
  15. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    I believe that God will both preserve His word and continue the work He began with convicting me of sin, righteousness and judgment, and opening my heart, etc., for which i can claim zero credit. And since this means continuing in faith (versus mere profession), then God works to chasten us to repentance if needed.

    But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. (1 Corinthians 11:32)

    If God did not work such repentance, then we would be. Yet the fact that God continues this work does not mean that I could not or cannot resist and reject Christ (which is the only thing i can really take credit for), and cannot choose to do what Scripture clearly warn believers, as believers, against. Such as,

    And because ye are sons [Paul's audience], God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. (Galatians 4:6)

    Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again [those who were set free] with the yoke of bondage [going back into what they were set free from]. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if [submission to Judaizers these believers are being warned against] ye be circumcised [signifying justification obtained by keeping all the law], Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become [an effectual change due to their choice] of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace[their former state]. For we [those who continue to believe] through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. (Galatians 5:1-5)

    Take heed, brethren, [contextually not a general sense, but as believers] lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God [a departure from their former state s believers]. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin [a change of heart]. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end [[perseverance of the saints]. (Hebrews 3:12-14)

    Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering [continued exhortation to persevere]; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, [indicating departing from the faith, as follows] as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. (Hebrews 10:23-25)

    For if [a choice brethren are warned against] we [not just you] sin wilfully [not out of weakness, but with full consent, as a decision not to continue but to depart, signified by giving up being with the believers] after that we have received the knowledge of the truth [a term which refers to believing, as per 1Tim. 2:4; 2Tim. 3:7], there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins [cf. Hebrews 6:6-8; a terminal condition of judgment, with no provision for repentance and forgiveness, having forfeited what saving faith obtained], But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26-27)

    He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified [a past condition, appropriated by faith, now forfeited by a definite denial of the same] , an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:28-29)

    Cast not away therefore your confidence, [the issue being faith, out of which obedience flows] which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise [not that doing earns the promise, but that saving faith is that which finally perseveres, which faith as manifested in works God - who gave faith and the ability and motivation to obey - rewards under grace] For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

    Now the just shall live by faith [the just live by faith, not merely profess it, with such faith being what appropriates justification]: but if any man draw back [a denial of justifying faith], my soul shall have no pleasure in him [as solemnly, fearfully described above]. But we [who do not draw back, but persevere] are not of them who draw back unto perdition [contextually a terminal condition of judgment, with no provision for repentance and forgiveness due to treating Christ with contempt] but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:35-39)

    Such departing from the the living God, drawing backing into perdition, falling from grace, etc., is likely the the "great transgression," (Psalms 9:13) that of having "wickedly departed from my God,"(2 Samuel 22:22) which David stated he did not do, despite his sins, for unlike apostates he overall kept the ways of the Lord, and confessed in repentance when convicted of not doing so, (2 Samuel 12:7-13)

    It is the Father's will that none should perish and that all whom the Father gives Christ shall be saved, but as with Judas, there are some sons of perdition. Thus it is manifest who the elect are, vessels fit for honor, and who they are not, vessels fitted for destruction, but I am sure you have a case for the elect being all who were ever regenerated, and God not allowing them to die in impenitent denial of the faith. Whatever glorifies God most should be what we at least want.

    I once held to OSAS myself, and by nature would like to now, but in the light of Scripture find it incontrovertible that believers are being addressed as believers in these texts, I cannot see how all such can be dismissed as hypothetical, or that the consequences warned of are less than that of damnation as lost soul, and of them being the more accountable.

    Yet i pray and trust that as David said, The Lord will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O Lord, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands. (Psalms 138:8)

    Thanks be to God.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2017
  16. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    FreeGrace2 said:

    How do you explain what Christ said?
    Heb 10:5-9
    5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; 6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7 Then I said, 'Here I am — it is written about me in the scroll — I have come to do your will, O God.'" 8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made).


    And then -
    9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


    Just as i suspected, you pick and choose what part of the Bible you allow to be inspired of God, with a red letter hermeneutic even though Christ Himself wrote nothing down, and thus all the words of Scripture come thru the inspired agency of men. Which selective rejection marginalizes you as a cultist, with a manifest antagonist's axe to grind, who is hardly worthy of the extended attempts at reason-able exchange.

    Do you even believe the CF Statement of Faith? Yes or no?
     
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  17. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    Yes.

    And this is what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life: "they shall never perish". John 10:28

    Believeth thou this? (Jn 11:25)

    That's not ever what the Bible calls them. The Bible calls them apostates.

    No, I am pointing out from Scripture that once a person receives the irrevocable gift (Rom 6:23 - Rom 11:29) of eternal life, they will never perish (John 10:28).

    It sure does. Your claim is absurd. It says so in plain language.

    Your conclusion is in serious error, because Paul never wrote what you are claiming here. And the death mentioned in 6:23 refers to spiritual death, which EVERY HUMAN BEING has already experienced. We don't spiritually die every time we sin. That is absurd.

    This "death" here refers to loss of fellowship because of sin. We know this because of what John wrote in his first epistle, ch 1:
    3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
    6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth.
    7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
    8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
    10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
    Ch 2:
    1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

    Once again you've conflated 2 separate passages and demonstrate no idea of what context means.

    Those who claim to be Christian should already know that eternal life is ONLY for those who have believed in Christ and are sealed IN HIM with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13,14). So I've left out nothing.

    Your claims of what I've left out are false and meaningless.

    Nothing here about loss of salvation. But everything here about loss of fellowship.

    You've failed to provide ANY verse that says we can be unsealed from being IN HIM for any reason.

    Such failure reduces your assumptions to false doctrine.

    That's not what Jesus promises to those He gives eternal life: they will never perish.

    Believeth thou this? (John 11:25)

    Absurd. It says so in plain language.
    Oh, gee. I guess by adding "the calling of God", seems to remove the gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23) from the gifts that are irrevocable.

    That is absurd and irrational. To say the least.

    It says that the gift of God and the calling of God are irrevocable. And eternal life is one of God's gifts.

    Those who never have believed never receive eternal life. Those who receive the gift of eternal life will never perish.

    Believeth thou this? (John 11:25)

    Those who have never believed never received the gift of eternal life.

    Those who HAVE believed HAVE the gift of eternal life and will never perish, because Jesus promises this. And apparently you don't.

    This is ridiculous. No one has eternal life until they believe in Jesus Christ. And those who have believed and have received the gift of eternal life will never perish because Jesus promises this. And apparently you don't.

    Ridiculous question. I repeat, no one has eternal life until they believe in Jesus Christ.

    I know that eternal security scares you as much as the mythical Frankenstein scares young children, but that's not my problem.

    The mystery is why Scriptural truth scares you so much.
     
  18. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    I said this:
    "What you've failed to show so far is that "believing for a while" means "saved for a while", esp since Paul described the gift of eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and then he wrote that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

    Further, Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish in John 10:28.

    Those verses are very clear and in plain language. They teach eternal security.

    Not conditional security based on what you do or do not do.

    Failure to prove from Scripture."
    It appears my post was very poorly understood, if at all. Or that you never bothered to even read any of it. Everyone can see that I noted 3 verses.

    Maybe it's just that you've rejected those 3 verses and don't consider them to be Scripture. Well, again, that's not my problem.

    However, more than citing 3 verses, I challenged your view on conditional security, which is based on what you do or do not do.

    And, once again, you've failed to meet the challenge and show any verses that support your claims.
     
  19. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

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    I said,
    God chooses unbelievers to become believers.

    The choice or lack of choice we are talking about here is a choice by God before anyone becomes a believer.

    ""All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." John 6:37

    ""No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44

    The ones the Father gives to the Son and draws to the Son are unblievers.

    Unless every person on earth is given to the Son and drawn to the Son - it is obvious that God chose unbeliever to be given to the Son and drawn to the Son.

    The only way God could have given and drawn believers is for everyone to be saved in the end and, in fact, be saved before being chosen to be given and drawn to the Son. That simply didn't happen.

    Your constantly saying that God chose believers to be given and drawn to the Son is clearly non sensical.
     
  20. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

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    This verse does not say that God chooses unbelievers to become believers. Nor does any other verse.

    Ditto here.

    But God didn't choose them to become believers. They are drawn just like Cornelius, who did listen and learn from the Father (John 6:45).

    John 6:45 doesn't allow that kind of interpretation.

    Neither did God choose who would believe.

    I never said that. You are misinformed.

    I have said repeatedly that God chose to save those who believe. Which isn't even close to what you're claiming I said.

    And, unlike your view about God choosing unbelievers to become believers, which has no verse to back it up, I do have a verse to back up my claim that God chooses to save those who believe.

    For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 1 Cor 1:21

    This is obviously a choice.
     
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