Limited vs unlimited atonement?

JLB777

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While this train of discussion is not with me - I have a thought to add here about what you said.

I accepted the Lord at 13 and lasted a couple of years until I onsciously left Him due to anger concering my Father's death.

After a time I became a strong agnostic (close to an aethiest).

I stayed in that condition for 15 years or so until the Lord convinced me of His reality through a miracle.

Looking back - I can see the Holy Spirit (with whom I was sealed when I believed in my youth) moving and using me in varios ways to argue against many of the arguments my aethist and cultish friends were using against evangelical Christians.

I believe that I was exercising gifts from the Holy Spirit even in my unbelief.

While I freely admit that I was an "unbeliever" to say the least for over 15 years - I will not agree or say that He ever left me having sealed me securely when my very real conversion happened in my youth.

However - it isn't because of my experience that I believe in OSAS. It is because I know that I passed from death to life when I was 13 and that I will never come into condemnation even if I do come under His just chastisment and even suffer loss in the long run because of my sins.

He is the one who started a good work in me close to 6 decades ago and He is the one who will see that work to completion in my glorification.

It's for the praise of His grace and perseverance that He saved me and it is for His the praise of His grace and perseverance that He will keep me saved regardless of momentary unbelief and indescresions or even ones which last for over 15 years. should He tarry.

I too have a similar testimony, and if I were to go by my experience alone, without what the scriptures teach, I would be in the OSAS camp.

We must not elevate our experience over what the word of God teaches us.


Thank God you did respond to His calling, later on.


I think you misunderstand, the context of the discussion.


The context is departing from Christ, while under persecution.

This is not being backslidden or falling back into a sinful lifestyle.


13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

  • Matthew says it this way:

20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21


The warning is to His disciples, to not depart from or fall away from Him, and return to the religion of Judaism, because they are being persecuted: Tortured or threatened with death, if they do not renounce Jesus as a false messiah or false prophet, and return to keeping the law of Moses, and sacrificing animals for their sins, and the practices of Judaism, which is a religion that does not recognize Jesus Christ as Messiah or Lord.

To renounce Jesus as Messiah, is to claim that another is messiah.

You must understand the context, in order to understand the discussion.

Here is the writer of the book of Hebrews teaching the Jewish believers the same thing.


12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. Hebrews 3:12-14


This phrase "departing from" is the same Greek expression Jesus used in Luke 8:13, "fall away".


Depart From; Fall Away - Strong's G868 - aphistēmi


  1. to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to remove
    1. to excite to revolt
  2. to stand off, to stand aloof
    1. to go away, to depart from anyone
    2. to desert, withdraw from one
    3. to fall away, become faithless
    4. to shun, flee from
    5. to cease to vex one
    6. to withdraw one's self from, to fall away
    7. to keep one's self from, absent one's self from

This context and warning is carried on throughout the book of Hebrews, whereby the author is convincing the Hebrew followers of the Lord that Jesus is the True Messiah, The True Lord, The True High Priest, and not some man, or false messiah, in which they must be faithful to Him as the True Messiah, even unto death.

In Hebrews 6 we see this continuing context:


4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:4-6



JLB
 
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Marvin Knox

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Still haven't seen any in Scripture. But I know what you mean................................Since both sides of a diametrically opposed argument cannot be true, then the wrong one simply has another explanation for it. No paradox at all.................No, I'm not being obstinate. And your post aligns with my views on paradoxes. One side of a diametrically opposed argument, such as OSAS vs OSNAS, has to be wrong, and their "Scriptural support" simply has a different meaning, which can be explained rather easily. That is why I don't see paradoxes.
PARADOX (Webster's) --- "a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true."

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24

"I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil. 1:6


"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22

"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been partakers of the Holy Spirit, and having tasted of the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame." Hebrews 6:4-6.

If those two pairs aren't a paradox then I don't know what is.

Before you start - I can almost hear your response to this post - something about how the ones in blue should be taken different ways than those often taken by anti-OSAS.

I would agree with you on the proper way of looking at these scriptures and your conclusions. I agree that they are not really contradictions.

But that's the point isn't it? This is not a true contradiction but only a seeming contradiction i.e. a "paradox".

You either don't know what a paradox is or you are being obstinate and argumentative for some reason. Why I a person would want to dig in the way you have on this issue I don't know.

I suppose there is another explaination.

Perhaps you are so spiritual and atuned to the Holy Spirit that, immediately and the first you read these scriptures, you didn't even pause for a moment before understanding exactly how they meshed together without contradiction.

It is possible I suppose.

I have often been impressed by your ability to argue and with your insights as well. But I just won't buy into that idea.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I take the time to look up and actually post the scripture themselves, while you don't post any scripture
Please stop spewing untruths.

but only opinion, then you call me lazy, when I put forth the effort to write out the scripture for all to see.
Your effort is fruitless and worthless, since Jesus promised those He gives eternal life will never perish.
John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

Do you even grasp that?

To never perish only requires receiving God's gift of eternal life.

Your views directly contradict Jesus' promise.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

  • Those who believe are Believers.
  • Those who believe for a while, the return to unbelieving, are not believers.
That isn't even the argument. Where have you been?

The argument is about a saved person perishing in hell. Which is really ridiculous, since Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish.

So there's really no argument at all. Just people who have no clue what Jesus said.

This truth will never change.
The truth that those who have received eternal life will never perish.

Claiming that people who are not believers, have eternal life, is nothing but a false teaching.
No, the false teaching is claiming that a saved person can perish in hell.

Are you teaching the people of this forum, that a person who believes for a while while, then no longer believes, is somehow still a believer?
Once a person has received the free gift of eternal life, they will never perish, because Jesus promises that.

That means your claims are false.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I too have a similar testimony, and if I were to go by my experience alone, without what the scriptures teach, I would be in the OSAS camp.

We must not elevate our experience over what the word of God teaches us.
Then how come you've elevated your unsupported opinion over the promise of Jesus Christ, who said that those He gives eternal life will never perish.

Please notice that in order to never perish depends totally upon Him. There is nothing we can do or fail to do that trumps His promise.

Yet, you think there is.

I think you misunderstand, the context of the discussion.
He fully knows the context.

The context is departing from Christ, while under persecution.
Eph 1:13,14 doesn't permit such a view.

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13
\
Once saved, always saved.
Once sealed, always sealed.
Once given eternal life, will never perish.
 
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FreeGrace2

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PARADOX (Webster's) --- "a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true."

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24

"I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil. 1:6


"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:20-22

"For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been partakers of the Holy Spirit, and having tasted of the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame." Hebrews 6:4-6.

If those two pairs aren't a paradox then I don't know what is.

Before you start - I can almost hear your response to this post - something about how the ones in blue should be taken different ways than those often taken by anti-OSAS.

I would agree with you on the proper way of looking at these scriptures and your conclusions. I agree that they are not really contradictions.

But that's the point isn't it? This is not a true contradiction but only a seeming contradiction i.e. a "paradox".

They don't "seem" to be a paradox to me.

When Jesus makes a promise that is so crystal clear about how those who have believed have passed from death to life and will never be condemned (John 5:24) and those He gives eternal life will never perish (Jn 10:28), there aren't any verses that "seem" to teach loss of salvation.

Because I begin reading Scripture with the FACT that there are no contradictory passages. So I don't see anything that "seems" to teach loss of salvation.

You either don't know what a paradox is or you are being obstinate and argumentative for some reason. Why I a person would want to dig in the way you have on this issue I don't know.
I not only know there are no contradictions in the Bible, I just don't see any verses that "seem" to be contradictory. Certainly NOT in any discussion about eternal security, or lack thereof.

I suppose there is another explaination.

Perhaps you are so spiritual and atuned to the Holy Spirit that, immediately and the first you read these scriptures, you didn't even pause for a moment before understanding exactly how they meshed together without contradiction.

It is possible I suppose.
Or, more in line with reality, I simply begin with the knowledge that there are no contradictions in the Bible, so if there should be any verses that might seem to contradict any others, I already know that I've misunderstood one set of verses.

There are some verses that I have no idea what they mean, but they aren't verses in the usual argument circles, like OSAS vs OSNAS, limited vs unlimited atonement, etc.
 
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Marvin Knox

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I simply begin with the knowledge that there are no contradictions in the Bible, so if there should be any verses that might seem to contradict any others, I already know that I've misunderstood one set of verses.
Most people who believe in inerrance do that.

But that wouldn't stop anyone who sees sets of verses like that from noticing that they
"appear" at first glance to contradict.

Precisely because we know that they do not contradict - we therefore know that we are dealing with a mere paradox.

I do believe that you just like to argue for argument's sake. This has been a case in point IMO.

But whatever. Have it your way.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Most people who believe in inerrance do that.

But that wouldn't stop anyone who sees sets of verses like that from noticing that they
"appear" at first glance to contradict.

Precisely because we know that they do not contradict - we therefore know that we are dealing with a mere paradox.
OK.
 
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JLB777

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Then how come you've elevated your unsupported opinion over the promise of Jesus Christ, who said that those He gives eternal life will never perish.

Please notice that in order to never perish depends totally upon Him. There is nothing we can do or fail to do that trumps His promise.

Yet, you think there is.


No scripture, just opinion.

Please stop spewing untruths.


No scripture, just opinion.


Your effort is fruitless and worthless, since Jesus promised those He gives eternal life will never perish.
John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

Do you even grasp that?

To never perish only requires receiving God's gift of eternal life.

Your views directly contradict Jesus' promise.


You continue to just post your opinion, and tag your opinion with a scripture reference.


That's what I understand.


Over and over, you have been found out to post a part of one scripture, while ignoring the context, and then post another part of another scripture, and stitch the two parts together to form an unbiblical doctrine.

That isn't even the argument. Where have you been?

The argument is about a saved person perishing in hell. Which is really ridiculous, since Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish.

So there's really no argument at all. Just people who have no clue what Jesus said.


13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

  • Those who believe are Believers.
  • Those who believe for a while, the return to unbelieving, are not believers.
There is no argument to it, this is the truth of Jesus' words.


You on the other hand, would try to convince the people of this forum, that those who are not believers, have eternal life.


Here lets prove it:

13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13


Are those who believe for a while, then fall away, and no longer believe, still believers?
  1. Yes
  2. No

JLB
 
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JLB777

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The truth that those who have received eternal life will never perish.

2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. John 15:2

  • Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away.

The truth is those who have eternal life, though being "in Him", then later are removed from Him, no longer have the eternal life that comes from being "in Him".

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6


Please explain how a person who has come to be in Christ, then later is removed from Christ, still has eternal life, being apart from Christ?



JLB
 
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FreeGrace2

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No scripture, just opinion.




No scripture, just opinion.





You continue to just post your opinion, and tag your opinion with a scripture reference.


That's what I understand.
Your understanding is woefully lacking. And your opinions are in error.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Please explain how a person who has come to be in Christ, then later is removed from Christ, still has eternal life, being apart from Christ?JLB
Your understanding of Eph 1:13 and 14 is woefully lacking, because those who have believed, are marked with a seal IN HIM with the Spirit, which is a deposit which guarantees our inheritance for the day of redemption.

That is a clear statement of eternal security.

And that's not all. Jesus directly promised eternal security in John 10:28 when He said those who receive eternal life will never perish.

Your view includes many conditions for one to never perish. Jesus only had one condition: receive eternal life.

Your view is in direct contrast to Jesus' promise.

Where is the biblical evidence that one who has been sealed, saved, marked, can be:

un-marked
un-sealed
un-saved?
 
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PeaceByJesus

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There is no “need” for evangelism from God’s perspective except the need to do things the way He has decided to do them.
But which does not mean God does not plead with and yearn for the lost to be saved, and is not grieved by man's choice of impenitence, even if they cannot repent/believe and God willed their damnation it as per Calvinism.

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ezekiel 33:11)

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Matthew 23:37)

And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. (Luke 19:41-42)

For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the Lord; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear. (Jeremiah 13:11)


Nor that man is not held responsible for failing to acts as an instrument of salvation for those God looked to save, besides the blood being on man's hands for not speaking even to warn the damned of their way.

And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none. Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord God. (Ezekiel 22:30-31)

When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. (Ezekiel 33:8)
 
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PeaceByJesus

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And that's not all. Jesus directly promised eternal security in John 10:28 when He said those who receive eternal life will never perish. Your view includes many conditions for one to never perish. Jesus only had one condition: receive eternal life.
Actually His condition to have eternal life is to believe, with the kind of faith which results in obedience, including repentance when convicted of not doing so.

Thus the preface to John 10:28 defines those whom the Lord gives eternal life to as the obedient sheep, which thus does not apply to those who are not.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:27-28)

Thus God seeks to bring the converted to repentance as needed, "that we should not be condemned with the world." (1 Corinthians 11:32)
Where is the biblical evidence that one who has been sealed, saved, marked, can be:
un-marked
un-sealed
un-saved?
The problem is that there are many warnings written to believers as believers against having an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, drawing back unto perdition, back into bondage, making Christ of no effect, to no profit, falling from grace, etc., (Hebrews 3:12; 10:38,39; Gal. 5:1-5) as shown in a previous post on this thread. Which cannot be relegate to being written to unbelievers, and to make it hypothetical is problematic.
 
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JLB777

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Your understanding of Eph 1:13 and 14 is woefully lacking, because those who have believed, are marked with a seal IN HIM with the Spirit, which is a deposit which guarantees our inheritance for the day of redemption.

That is a clear statement of eternal security.

And that's not all. Jesus directly promised eternal security in John 10:28 when He said those who receive eternal life will never perish.

Your view includes many conditions for one to never perish. Jesus only had one condition: receive eternal life.

Your view is in direct contrast to Jesus' promise.

Where is the biblical evidence that one who has been sealed, saved, marked, can be:

un-marked
un-sealed
un-saved?


No scripture just opinion.
 
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JLB777

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Your understanding is woefully lacking. And your opinions are in error.


No scripture just opinion, as well as insults.


Your answer to the overwhelming amount of scripture that I presented with the supporting context is to state your opinion, and insult me.


How surprising. ^_^



JLB
 
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Marvin Knox

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But which does not mean God does not plead with and yearn for the lost to be saved, and is not grieved by man's choice of impenitence.....
Nor did I say that He doesn't.

Nor, for that matter, has any Calvinist I know of.
...............Nor that man is not held responsible for failing to acts as an instrument of salvation for those God looked to save, besides the blood being on man's hands for not speaking even to warn the damned of their way.
Nor did I say otherwise.

Nor, for that matter, has any Calvinist I know of.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Actually His condition to have eternal life is to believe, with the kind of faith which results in obedience, including repentance when convicted of not doing so.
One can argue the meaning of 'believe', but that is not the point of John 10:28.

Thus the preface to John 10:28 defines those whom the Lord gives eternal life to as the obedient sheep, which thus does not apply to those who are not.
No, the point is that those He gives eternal life will never perish.

So, who receives eternal life? Those who believe. To the jailer's question about what he MUST DO to be saved, Paul answered, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:27-28)
v.27 is a general description of who His sheep are. Not the criteria for receiving eternal life. That was determined back in v.9.

One is saved when one places their eternal soul to the saving by Jesus Christ.

Though obedience is expected, it's not part of saving faith. That's why believers are commanded to be obedient.

Did you ever consider why there are commands for obedience? They cannot be part of saving faith, or there would be no need for the commands.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said this:
"Where is the biblical evidence that one who has been sealed, saved, marked, can be:
un-marked
un-sealed
un-saved?"
The problem is that there are many warnings written to believers as believers against having an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, drawing back unto perdition, back into bondage, making Christ of no effect, to no profit, falling from grace, etc., (Hebrews 3:12; 10:38,39; Gal. 5:1-5) as shown in a previous post on this thread. Which cannot be relegate to being written to unbelievers, and to make it hypothetical is problematic.
The problem is that my request was not met.

The Bible specifically mentions being marked, sealed, and saved. If salvation could be lost, then there would be specific verses on being:
un-marked
un-sealed
un-saved.

All you've got is opinion and assumption.

I have provided Jesus' promise and Paul's description of God's gifts; they are irrevocable, and eternal life is one of God's gifts.

We all have a choice: go with opinions, emotions and assumptions, or go with the plain language of Scripture.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said this:
"Your understanding of Eph 1:13 and 14 is woefully lacking, because those who have believed, are marked with a seal IN HIM with the Spirit, which is a deposit which guarantees our inheritance for the day of redemption."
No scripture just opinion.
It's quite sad that you disregard Ephesians as Scripture. Why is that?

Since I claim that 1:13,14 teach eternal security, if I'm wrong, all one has to do is quote the 2 verses and provide an explanation that proves that it teaches something other than eternal security.

But if that were possible, it would have been done already. And neither you nor anyone else in your camp has done that.
 
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