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Limited vs unlimited atonement?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Fish14, May 9, 2017.

  1. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    This is tantamount to enduring in order to save yourself. It was Jesus Christ who "endured the shame" to save us.
  2. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

    Those who endure to the end will be saved.

    But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 24:13

    and again

    20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:20-21

    • but endures only for a while.
    • who believe for a while

    But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13

    The parable of the Sower teaches us the truth of believing; those who believe are saved.

    12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12

    • lest they should believe and be saved.

    Those who believe for a while are saved for a while.

  3. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

    Salvation is only for people, not demons or fallen angels and they are different types of creatures.
    Certainly Christ did not die for them...

    No one is saved for a little while, those saved are saved to the uttermost.
    Hebrews 7:24-26New King James Version (NKJV)
    24 But He, because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

    26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;
  4. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldly! Supporter

    United States
    Whoa, back up the truck brother (beep, beep, beep).

    My point is God gives us the new heart and transforms the mind. I was getting at the following:

    Ephesians 1: NKJV
    15 Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers: 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, 18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.
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  5. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

    Great chapter. Lots misspeak about v13, the 'in Him you also trusted' as referring to them as non apostolic believers. All of Ephesians 1 is written to the saints which includes all God's people, not just apostles being predestined. God predestines us, then we trust ourselves to Christ as we are taught by the Holy Spirit and will come to Christ, refer to John 6. And we have a guaranteed inheritance so then everlasting life never to perish.

    Ephesians 1New King James Version (NKJV)
    1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

    To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

    2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Redemption in Christ
    3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

    7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

    13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

    Paul is simply including ALL the saints into his teaching here in reference to v13, that God made no distinction between the apostles and the saints of God. Just as the apostles trusted Christ for their everlasting salvation, so do the saints. Paul by this is conveying to the saints comfort and consolation that they are saved the same way the apostles and the early jewish believers were saved. The Ephesian gentile believers are in no way inferior. Paul explores in Ephesians 2 more about the jew and gentile wall of separation being broken down for those in Christ.
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
  6. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

    This theme Paul carries on here in Ephesians 2

    11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

    Christ Our Peace
    14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. 17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. 18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

    Christ Our Cornerstone
    19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
  7. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

    Certainly everyone is taught of God in some ways. All are without excuse.

    But next verse also talks about those who hear God - not everyone has ears to hear, as the scriptures clearly say.
    If it will help to understand the logical position in this you can paraphrase what I said.

    Simple logic really.

    According to the God breathed pronouncment that there would be no excuse for anyone, there would be no excuse for anyone regarless of their being chosen and called internally or not.
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
  8. jimmyjimmy

    jimmyjimmy Pardoned Rebel Supporter

    United States
    Have you ever seen soil change itself? I haven't either.

    I agree completely with you. The point of the parable is that the soil type is predetermined. The gospel goes out liberally. The sower even throws seeds on rocky soil, which he obviously knows won't grow. The seeds only thrive in the soil that is "good".
  9. EmSw

    EmSw Newbie

    The seed is sown in soil that is already honest and good. How does the soil get to be honest and good without the word? It is those with an honest and good heart who hear the word and keep it. Nothing is said about a 'predetermined' heart.

    Besides, Ezekiel said to cast away all our transgressions to make a new heart and new spirit. So yes, soil can change by its actions and life.
  10. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

    United States
    Hi JLB, so demons have the same kind of faith that Christians do, they simply fail/refuse to do the one thing ("action or work or obedience") that would allow grace/faith to save them?

    Also, St. James tells us that demons "shudder" or "tremble" because they believe. Why do you think they do that since they clearly refuse to acknowledge who He is?


  11. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

    Soil changing itself, is like birds turning into fish.
    They call that 'evolution', 'natural selection'.
    And they say no need for God. With God we call it supernatural selection, LOL what a mess some people are, you know a mess of oddball theology, not thinking as the scripture says in the whole counsel of God, they conveniently ignore things they dont like, or twist it to mean something it cant mean.

    By God's grace you are saved through faith, not of yourselves being the gift of God lest any should boast, but boast they do in the natural selection thought train of the mind, a no need for God, Pelagianism..
    Last edited: May 26, 2017
  12. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

    Without reading through all 19+ pages of this thread, but adding to some of what was said, i fail to see how the atonement cannot be for all based upon the fact that some reject this grace of God. That the atonement was for all does not mean all will be saved anymore than the fact that the wedding feast was prepared for those who rejected it (Matthew 22:1-10) means that they all would have eaten of it in order to be consistent with the nature of the provision and the kings purpose.

    For as regards the latter, giving grace and provision to those who reject it serves a purpose, that of manifesting the grace of God in contrast to the hardness of man, and thus indicting man, just as the grace shown to cities like Sidon did, who shall be judged accordingly.

    Likewise those who fall from the grace of God, (Galatians 5:1-4) with an evil heart of unbelief departing from the living God, and draw back unto perdition (Hebrews 3:9) shall be worse off than those who never received the knowledge of the truth (Hebrews 10:25-39) if they do not repent. In which case the grace provided is in vain as regards those who rejected it ( "We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain," 2 Corinthians 6:1), but is not in vain as regards the purposes of God, whose word always accomplishes his purposes, even if it is for judgment.

    Nor does the rejection of the atonement impugn the ability of the grace-giver any more then the rejection of the wedding feast by those who were invited does.

    If the atonement was a mere financial transaction in capitalism then it would be logical for one to receive all that he paid for, but God, who makes the sun to shine even on the unjust, abounds with examples of expending much on souls who spurn His entreaties and mercies, yet which will fulfill His purposes nonetheless.

    And that Christ atoned for all sins is what the plain reading of Scripture states in 1 John 2:2, in which a distinction is made as regards the audience, that being the "world" of the elect, having their sins atoned for, yet it adds as regards the scope of the atonement that it was for the whole world:

    And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours [the elect's] only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)

    Likewise "all" here is not contextually restricted to a certain class of mankind:

    All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isaiah 53:6)

    Thus the atonement is for all in the sense of provision, however, it is only effectual for those who, by God's grace come to God in repentant faith, trusting the risen Lord Jesus to save them on His account, by His sinless shed blood. thanks be to God.

    And it is by grace, for man could not and would not believe on the Lord Jesus or follow Him unless God gave him life, and breath, and all good things he has, (Acts 17:25) and convicted him, (Jn. 16:8) drew him, (Jn. 6:44; 12:32) opened his heart, (Acts 16:14) and granted repentance (Acts 11:18) and gave faith, (Eph. 2:8,9) and then worked in him both to will and to do of His good pleasure the works He commands them to do. (Phil. 2:13; Eph. 2:10)

    But which works, resulting from faith, do not appropriate justification, but as saving faith is that which effects obedience, this fruit justifies one as being a believer, with "things that accompany salvation." (Hebrews 6:9)

    Thus man owes to God all things, even the ability and motivation to obey Him, and in justice man only actually deserves damnation, since what man must take credit for for is resisting God, whatever the level of grace given him is. (Prov. 1:20-31; Lk. 10:13; 12:48; Rv. 20:11-15) Yet under grace, which denotes unmerited favor, God has chosen to reward faith, (Heb. 10:35) in recognition of its effects, which God is actually to be credited for.

    Which thus means that God justifies man as one "accepted in the Beloved" (Eph. 1:6) not on the basis that his works merit this, and which is what Romans 4:1-7ff teaches, with works of the law including all systems of this justification by the actual merit of works, for, "if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." (Galatians 3:21)
  13. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

    Next thing you know you will be preaching a faith that began with common people following a holy man in the desert and a itinerant Preacher from Galilee who fulfilled OT prophecies and established His claims with Scriptural substantiation in word and in power. But whom the historical magisterium and ruling party rejected.

    Meaning we are to "criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding...seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; (Proverbs 2:3-4) and follow the Truth of Scripture wherever it leads. Which i need to do better.

    I have only read 5 pages of this thread, but I agree that LM is not what Scripture teaches, and though it seems I must differ with you on at least the P of Tulip, I admire what I see as your humble, reasonable and patient character as a seeker of God, despite some attacks on you for what you did not teach.
  14. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

    You are making what refers to the quality of the work of atonement to refer to its reception, but while Christ could weep over Jerusalem for rejecting His atonement, yet this does not impugn the character of His atonement as providing for the forgiveness of all who will come to him by God's grace.

    And which aspect many other posts address.
  15. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

    No, it simply does not disprove that at all, any more than the fact that Christ forgave sins before He made His atonement, but which He said He came to do, but which you doctrine reduces to being superfluous.

    The manifest reality is that all forgiveness, including that of David for his murder and adultery before he offered any sacrifice, was provided under the rubric of the atonement. First, that of the yearly required Day of Atonement, and finally Christ. Either this was essential or is was not.

    And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the Lord commanded Moses. (Leviticus 16:34)

    Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. (Luke 24:7)

    And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. (Luke 24:46-47)

    Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (1 John 4:10)

    Thus the requirement of the blood atonement for forgiveness and the realization of forgiveness before there was one is not a contradiction, as it otherwise would be, but are reconciled under the latter being provided for by the former, thanks be to God.
  16. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

    See above post by me, by God's grace.

    One of the things this forum lacks is the ability to see all (and only) the replies made to a particular post, and to ping other users to one.
  17. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

    I suppose some must think that Paul was not going to Hell before His conversion:
    Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. (Philippians 3:6)

    And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day. (Acts 23:1)

    As far as Paul was concerned, he was obeying the law, which required obeying leadership and and dealing with those who were judged to be aberrant, such as "which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak...even that prophet shall die," (Deuteronomy 18:20) which Christ was judged to be doing, and which is why, in good conscience, Paul could go about persecuting those of the sect of the Nazarene, "but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief." (1 Timothy 1:13)

    But as far as keeping the law as required for salvation, only Christ did, and "what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:3-4)

    Thus while believers are justified by faith, this faith is a repentant faith, one which by nature effects obedience toward its object.

    Thus Scripture can promise, "he that believeth [continuous sense] on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him," (John 3:36)

    And also say, For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. (Romans 2:13)

    The latter can be said, not because obedience merits a right standing with God, but because being a doer of the law (as per Rm. 8:4) characterizes a believer who therefore is and shall be counted as righteous.
    Last edited: May 27, 2017
  18. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

    How about,

    Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings. (Isaiah 7:15-16)

    This ability to "know to refuse the evil, and choose the good" awaits possessing moral cognizance and the ability to make moral choices of conscience, and though this can vary with the person, means there is a time in which that is realized, it seems to me.
  19. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

    Jumping in here, all are called to repent (Acts 17:30) according to the light they have, and all who hear the gospel are called to repentance, with their rejection testifying to their rejection of the light they already had, for which they are accountable. Thus even if one is never given the gospel, and is never granted the level of grace other have, yet such are without excuse for rejecting the light they have (which in essence is rejecting The Light), which is what Rm. 1:20 teaches.

    By God's grace, such "knew God" in the sense of natural revelation, as in "when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves." (Romans 2:14) But the Gentiles in Rm. 1 "when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened." (Romans 1:21)

    Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. (Romans 1:22-23)

    This is a progression, from light given but not responded to by honoring God and acknowledging gratitude to and need for Him (which the U.S. forbid in any official manner in 1961,62), which is contrary to evidential fruit of saving faith. And thus in substitution they came up with perverse alternatives to God, and their foolish heart was progressively darkened. They did not have all the light God could give them, which He owes to no one, but by rejecting what they had the progressed into darkness and works thereof.

    Which in principle corresponds to John 12:35:

    Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. (John 12:35)

    Re. the Rm. 1 Gentiles, having rejected the light they had:

    Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: (Romans 1:24-26)

    (Which declension the U.S. examples) but for which declension from the light and the deeds that followed (and sins of omission) they had no excuse, and which is what they will be punished for, not Adam's sin, or for rejecting the actual hearing of the gospel, though to reject the light one has is in essence rejecting Christ, "the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." (John 1:9)

    And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:13-15)

    Now if Calvinism teaches that man will essentially be punished because of what they could not do, that of believing on the risen Lord Jesus with repentant faith, versus what they could have done but acted contrary to, then God would be actually punishing the sons for their father's iniquity. We can suffer effects of the actions of others, but eternal punishment is based on what the person themselves did, contrary to the grace given.

    Thus Sodom (the lost of it) will be judged for what they did, but not for actually rejecting God manifest in the flesh by mighty acts of grace, though God could have given that level of grace, and which would have led to their repentance (but God owes grace to no one), while those who were provided such great grace of Christ are more accountable and will suffer the greater damnation.

    And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. (Matthew 11:23-24)

    Thus while all the good we have is of God, as it is written, "for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee," (1 Chronicles 29:14) and who shows mercy and grace to all, "for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." (Luke 6:35) yet the degree of mercy and grace is not uniform, but man will be judged according to what he has been given, for as in giving, it is "according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not," (2 Corinthians 8:12) and "as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law." (Romans 2:12)

    And those who never were given the grace of hearing the gospel and effectually believing it (for which God has his reasons) will have no excuse (versus the charge being that they did no do what they could not do, by no fault of their own). Yet all must repent when convicted of being and acting contrary to the true light they have, and all who hear the gospel are called to repentance, their rejection of which testifies to their rejection of the light they had.

    That's about the best i have figured this issue out for now.
  20. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter


    You brought up the point of devils believing, not me.

    That qualification to be born again, is being is first being born.

    3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    To be born again, a person must first be born.
    • That which is born of the flesh is flesh.
    • that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    That disqualifies devils.

    James says that faith without works is dead.

    18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:18-24

    Key Phrase: faith without works is dead?

    Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

    • The works being referred to here is obedience.

    Faith, without the corresponding action or work of obedience is dead.

    This is the principle or law of faith, and how faith works.