Limited Atonement Refuted

[anthony55]

Yes, that's gospel....

Amen, what kinda Saviour from sin would Christ be, if He did not save you because of sin ?

Unbelief is a sin Just as much as being a whoremonger or murderer rev 21:8

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

That word unbelieving is the greek word
apistos and means:

unfaithful, faithless, (not to be trusted, perfidious)

2) incredible

a) of things

3) unbelieving, incredulous

a) without trust (in God)

Well Jesus Christ shall save His people from sins such as unbelief, murdering, whoremongering and etc.

 

[Ryan Collins]

That's because of presuming certain ideas to be true, then explaining Scriptures based upon those definitions.

It's not a proper way to formulate opinion on doctrine.

Which is why I will not be responding to a simple link post regarding John 3:16.

 

[Shulamite]

Again, yes

I want to share a little more here....

35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing and He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest Thou? (No one can ask God, Why did you do this? What are you doing?) He does according to WHOSE will?

Revelation 19: "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' " And he added, "These are the true words of God."
If you are God's own, you were invited. You didn't invite yourself did you? There again, who invited who? In an earthly wedding, do you invite yourself or are you invited?

"You DID NOT choose Me, I chose you and appointed you." Where in this sentence did Jesus say, "You chose Me and appointed yourself to go bear fruit."?

EPHESIANS 4:18a..."They are darkened in thier understanding and separated from the Life of God because of the ignorance that is in them."

Now tell me, who is darkened? Who is separated from the Life of God? Ignorance is in Who?

How can anyone who is darkened, separated from God and in ignorance IN himself, bring himself to Life?
It is not even natural on earth that something that is dead can bring itself to life.
Death does not produce life. Death does not choose life.
Life chooses. Jesus is this Life!

Honestly, I just don't see how this is so difficult to grasp unless it is hidden to some.

Jesus spoke to His disciples and some of what He said to them they did not understand because it was hidden from them. (Luke 18:34 "The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.")

 

[anthony55]

Again, yes

I want to share a little more here....

35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing and He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay His hand, or say unto Him, What doest Thou? (No one can ask God, Why did you do this? What are you doing?) He does according to WHOSE will?

Revelation 19: "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' " And he added, "These are the true words of God."
If you are God's own, you were invited. You didn't invite yourself did you? There again, who invited who? In an earthly wedding, do you invite yourself or are you invited?

"You DID NOT choose Me, I chose you and appointed you." Where in this sentence did Jesus say, "You chose Me and appointed yourself to go bear fruit."?

EPHESIANS 4:18a..."They are darkened in thier understanding and separated from the Life of God because of the ignorance that is in them."

Now tell me, who is darkened? Who is separated from the Life of God? Ignorance is in Who?

How can anyone who is darkened, separated from God and in ignorance IN himself, bring himself to Life?
It is not even natural on earth that something that is dead can bring itself to life.
Death does not produce life. Death does not choose life.
Life chooses. Jesus is this Life!

Honestly, I just don't see how this is so difficult to grasp unless it is hidden to some.

Jesus spoke to His disciples and some of what He said to them they did not understand because it was hidden from them. (Luke 18:34 "The disciples did not understand any of this. Its meaning was hidden from them, and they did not know what he was talking about.")

How can darkness itself choose Light ? Before the Light of regeneration, Jn 1:

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Before that, the elect are darkness themselves by nature according to pauls inspired writing eph 5:

8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

So, by nature, how can darkness come to the light, when darkness hates the light ?

Total depravity is darkness !

And you best believe, darkness is not being invited to the marriage of the Lamb.

 

[Shulamite]

How can darkness itself choose Light ? Before the Light of regeneration, Jn 1:

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Before that, the elect are darkness themselves by nature according to pauls inspired writing eph 5:

8For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

So, by nature, how can darkness come to the light, when darkness hates the light ?

Total depravity is darkness !

And you best believe, darkness is not being invited to the marriage of the Lamb.

My point exactly. Total depravity hates the light, in fact, Jesus said so.
John 3: 20..."Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."

Again...... someone who is dead in trespasses will not come to the Light. WILL NOT. No self effort can do this. Only Jesus can.

 

[anthony55]

My point exactly. Total depravity hates the light, in fact, Jesus said so.
John 3: 20..."Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed."

Again...... someone who is dead in trespasses will not come to the Light. WILL NOT. No self effort can do this. Only Jesus can.

Understanding this is a good foundation for regeneration before Faith. Its regeneration that begets us into children of light.

Its a impartation of that Life we have in Christ our Mediator, and being His seed.

Jn 1:

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

The Men are all those He was a Mediator for 1 tim 2:

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Now notice, Christ Jesus, and it was Christ Jesus that grace was given these men before the world began !

2 tim 1:

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[Shulamite]

This is powerful !!!!

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Before the world began! Oh how I love Him...

 

[anthony55]

This is powerful !!!!

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Before the world began! Oh how I love Him...

Now, if you noticed, Christ Jesus was the God Man Mediator before the world began !

Notice as Mediator Christ Jesus, paul says He was the Man 1 tim 2:

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

In order for us to be given grace in Christ Jesus before the world began, that presupposes He existed as Man before the world began !
Think about that. And yes, He was also God the Word Jn 1:

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[Shulamite]

Now, if you noticed, Christ Jesus was the God Man Mediator before the world began !

Notice as Mediator Christ Jesus, paul says He was the Man 1 tim 2:

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

In order for us to be given grace in Christ Jesus before the world began, that presupposes He existed as Man before the world began !
Think about that. And yes, He was also God the Word Jn 1:

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Wow, this is almost unbelieveable how He's blessed me with this fellowship.. I used to feel so alone in understanding these things. He's so gracious to bring us a remnant of one or two that we can share with!

Yes, I agree!!!! He's shown me the same. He has always been eternally a Man. Jesus said, "John 3:13 King James Bible
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

 

[anthony55]

Wow, this is almost unbelieveable how He's blessed me with this fellowship.. I used to feel so alone in understanding these things. He's so gracious to bring us a remnant of one or two that we can share with!

Yes, I agree!!!! He's shown me the same. He has always been eternally a Man. Jesus said, "John 3:13 King James Bible
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Amen !

 

[Benefactor]

1 John 2:2 (NIV)
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

The word whole in Greek means whole

 

[nill]

1 John 2:2 (NIV)
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

The word whole in Greek means whole

1 John 5:19 (NIV)
19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

“The word whole in Greek means whole,” you say.

Does the same author who wrote both verses in the very same letter intend to say both that Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of every single person in the whole world, and that the evil one is in control of every single person in the whole world?

 

[Benefactor]

1 John 5:19 (NIV)
19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

“The word whole in Greek means whole,” you say.

Does the same author who wrote both verses in the very same letter intend to say both that Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of every single person in the whole world, and that the evil one is in control of every single person in the whole world?

Other verses cannot overrule this one. Both are true.

 

[Tzaousios]

Other verses cannot overrule this one.

How does this address the linguistic point that Neal made in his post?

 

[anthony55]

Wow, this is almost unbelieveable how He's blessed me with this fellowship.. I used to feel so alone in understanding these things. He's so gracious to bring us a remnant of one or two that we can share with!

Yes, I agree!!!! He's shown me the same. He has always been eternally a Man. Jesus said, "John 3:13 King James Bible
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven."

Of course , though He was God Man before creation, He had not yet took on flesh and blood, I believe He had a Body of some sort, possible like it is now, in a glorified state. I believe it was like when the disciples saw Him on the Mount of Transfiguration Matt 17 :


1And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
2And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

 

[Benefactor]

1 John 5:19 (NIV)
19 We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.

“The word whole in Greek means whole,” you say.

Does the same author who wrote both verses in the very same letter intend to say both that Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of every single person in the whole world, and that the evil one is in control of every single person in the whole world?

Yes, that is what it states and it does so clearly, both are true. Those under control of the evil one can become under control of the Holy one, free will.

What must the one that is in the control of the evil one do to be saved?
Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 9:35 "All those who lived in Lydda and Sharon saw him and turned to the Lord."

These under the control of the evil one turned to the Lord, free will all over the Scripture.

 

[Tzaousios]

These under the control of the evil one turned to the Lord, free will all over the Scripture.

What does that have to do with what you previously stated? It appears to be tacked onto the end there as if everyone needs a reminder.

 

[Benefactor]

How does this address the linguistic point that Neal made in his post?

Everyone is 'free" to offer all the opinions they wish "freely, that said, my answer stands.

 

[Tzaousios]

Everyone is 'free" to offer all the opinions they wish "freely, that said, my answer stands.

That's as may be, but you still did not answer the specific point of his post, which was a linguistic one.

 

[Benefactor]

That's as may be, but you still did not answer the specific point of his post, which was a linguistic one.

Last time, my previous answer stands.