Limited Atonement Refuted

Citizen of the Kingdom

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 31, 2006
44,327
14,493
Vancouver
Visit site
✟304,048.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
There are different types of favor (grace) everyone has been given sufficient grace to know who God is and how to worship him. Read Romans 1.

The elect will certainly come to Christ, that doesn't mean that the non elect haven't had sufficient grace to come to Christ but have rejected him and are responsible for their rejection of him that they excercised of their own God given free will.
Assuming that to reject grace they have chosen other gods in place of the true God?
 
Upvote 0

holyrokker

Contributor
Sep 4, 2004
9,390
1,750
California
Visit site
✟20,850.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
dd:


Yes they are, rom 5 10 proves it, and what you are stating implies that not christ death or blood atones for ones sins, but their act of believing, thats heresy.
Christ's sacrifice is an atonement for sins. Faith is the means by which we receive His atonement.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DD2008
Upvote 0
R

Robert Pate

Guest
Grace was given to the elect in Christ before the world began, according to 2 tim 1:9

And therefore, the elect were Justified before God by that same grace, before the world began.

Now who can deny that the elect are Justified by Grace according to titus 3:

7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

This was Justification by grace before they had been given Faith to believe.

If the elect were justified by God before the world began, then Jesus Christ lived and died in vain. There was no need for the incarnation. God could have just sent his Spirit into the world to save the elect.

What you are teaching is a Christless salvation.
 
Upvote 0

nobdysfool

The original! Accept no substitutes!
Feb 23, 2003
15,018
1,006
Home, except when I'm not....
✟21,146.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
If the elect were justified by God before the world began, then Jesus Christ lived and died in vain. There was no need for the incarnation. God could have just sent his Spirit into the world to save the elect.

What you are teaching is a Christless salvation.

Not at all! He is speaking of God's plan from God's point of view, where He purposes to save, even though it doesn't happen in time until much later. Christ still had to come and die on the cross and rise again to fulfill all things pertaining to Salvation, but in God's Mind, they were saved from before the world was made.
 
Upvote 0

heymikey80

Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Dec 18, 2005
14,496
921
✟34,309.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
In the bible we have words like, "Redemption" "Ransom" "Reconciliation" These words tell us that Jesus Christ was redeeming the world back to God.
Reconciliation bears examination.
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation. Rom 5:9-11​
If everyone's reconciled to God -- everyone's saved.

Most lords did not need reconciliation with those people they bought back or overcame. They would arbitrate the results no matter the resistance of the people.
 
Upvote 0

anthony55

Well-Known Member
Mar 16, 2010
3,136
75
✟3,521.00
Faith
Calvinist
Christ's sacrifice is an atonement for sins. Faith is the means by which we receive His atonement.

The elect receive a apprehension of their atonement by God given Faith, however they have been atoned to God before that, by the blood of Christ.

The elect are reconciled [atoned] unto God, even while they are enemies by nature rom 5:

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
 
Upvote 0

anthony55

Well-Known Member
Mar 16, 2010
3,136
75
✟3,521.00
Faith
Calvinist
pate:

If the elect were justified by God before the world began, then Jesus Christ lived and died in vain

Thats wrong, they were Justified before God before the world began, based upon the yet future occurrence in time sacrifice for their sins.

In Gods mind, the death of Christ was from the foundation. rev 13:

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So, they [elect] were reconciled by His death unto God from the foundation.
 
Upvote 0
R

Robert Pate

Guest
pate:



Thats wrong, they were Justified before God before the world began, based upon the yet future occurrence in time sacrifice for their sins.

In Gods mind, the death of Christ was from the foundation. rev 13:

8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

So, they [elect] were reconciled by His death unto God from the foundation.

Again you are adding to scripture.

It does not say the elect were reconciled to God.

What it does say is..."God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself." 2 Corinthians 5:19.

A partial reconciliation is like a limited atonement. False.

This doctrine does not make Jesus Lord and victorious over the world, the flesh and the devil. It makes him a failure. If I were you I would be very careful about what you are implying about Christ.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

anthony55

Well-Known Member
Mar 16, 2010
3,136
75
✟3,521.00
Faith
Calvinist
It does not say the elect were reconciled to God.

Thats who Christ died for. rom 8:


33Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died,

So the elect are reconciled to God by the death of His Son [ His being slain]

rom 5:

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son,
 
Upvote 0

anthony55

Well-Known Member
Mar 16, 2010
3,136
75
✟3,521.00
Faith
Calvinist
The True Gospel and intent of the death of Christ is under serious attack today, perhaps more so now than in any time in world history. The very fact the OT scriptures gives us the history of a typical people, the Nation of Israel, as a particular people selected sovereignly from all other peoples in the earth, this fact in and of itself serves as a harbinger to the special selected NT People of God.

The popular error of our day that characterizes the apostasy of the last time, is the denial of Gods special redemptive Love to a chosen people in Christ before the world began, and to teach that God loves everyone in the world and has made their salvation possible depending upon what they do. That Christ was not only for a elect people.

This is false teaching and here is why:

Objects of Gods Love are objects of His redemption and God has a special saving Love which is not the same as Gods general providential care that He gives to all His creature, the just and unjust alike. God does not Love all men savingly, which is pointed out in the hated scripture verse " Jacob have I loved and esau have I hated. There is no such thing as a common Love or Grace of God that makes salvation a mere possibility for all men without exception, but only a elective Love, and saving grace by which God actually saves His people, His Bride, His Church, His sheep from their sins. These people from everlasting were in a special relationship with God and owned as His property. His own elect.
 
Upvote 0

anthony55

Well-Known Member
Mar 16, 2010
3,136
75
✟3,521.00
Faith
Calvinist
Heb 7:

22By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

The bible teaches limited atonement because of the suretyship of Christ is limited.

Christ is the Surety of a better covenant, commonly called the covenant of grace or the everlasting covenant. This suretyship is the grounds and foundation of redemption and in His undertaking of it, Christ bore the sin and punishment of His people [He foreknew] to redeem them from the hands of justice and the curse of the Law. He, however, was not indebted to redeem those for who He was not a Surety.

Christ is not the Surety of every man but only those who were put under that suretyship [ His Church or Bride] from the foundation of the world.

Thus, Christ’s suretyship and redemption are of equal dimension and the same people are placed under both. The seed of Abraham.

Heb 2:

16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. [not ethnic jews ] But them belonging to Christ Gal 3:

29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 
Upvote 0

anthony55

Well-Known Member
Mar 16, 2010
3,136
75
✟3,521.00
Faith
Calvinist
Christ bore the sin and punishment of His people [He foreknew] to redeem them from the hands of justice and the curse of the Law. He, however, was not indebted to redeem those for who He was not a Surety.

Those Jesus will say these words to Matt 7:

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus Christ never bore the sins of those He says, I never knew you.

For He knows those who are His per 2 tim 2:19

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Jn 10:14

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

And He layed down His Life for His Sheep vs 15

As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep [or those I know]

Consequently, its very reasonable to conclude, that Jesus did not lay down His Life for those in Matt 7 :23, to whom He said I never knew you !
 
Upvote 0
R

Robert Pate

Guest
There is so much scripture that refutes what you are teaching.

Here is the biggest problem. Calvinism is a direct attack on the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

If Jesus has not overcome sin, death and the devil he is not Lord.

If Jesus has not reconciled the world unto God he is not Lord.

If Jesus has not overcome the world, the flesh and the devil he is not Lord.

What you have as a Calvinist is a Christ that is a total failure.

He cannot atone for the sins of the world. He cannot reconcile the world unto God.

He is not Lord over all things. He is a failure.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DD2008

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2008
5,033
574
Texas
✟8,121.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
There is so much scripture that refutes what you are teaching.

Here is the biggest problem. Calvinism is a direct attack on the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

If Jesus has not overcome sin, death and the devil he is not Lord.

If Jesus has not reconciled the world unto God he is not Lord.

If Jesus has not overcome the world, the flesh and the devil he is not Lord.

What you have as a Calvinist is a Christ that is a total failure.

He cannot atone for the sins of the world. He cannot reconcile the world unto God.

He is not Lord over all things. He is a failure.

What is your view on the atonement?

What soteriological position do you hold?

I am a Calvinist. A low Calvinist.
 
Upvote 0

JustAsIam77

Veritas Liberabit Vos
Dec 26, 2006
2,551
248
South Florida
✟30,798.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Republican
There is so much scripture that refutes what you are teaching.

Here is the biggest problem. Calvinism is a direct attack on the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

If Jesus has not overcome sin, death and the devil he is not Lord.

If Jesus has not reconciled the world unto God he is not Lord.

If Jesus has not overcome the world, the flesh and the devil he is not Lord.

What you have as a Calvinist is a Christ that is a total failure.

He cannot atone for the sins of the world. He cannot reconcile the world unto God.

He is not Lord over all things. He is a failure.

The atonement was infinitely meritorious and might have saved every member of the human race had that been Gods plan. It was limited only in the sense that it was intended for, and applied to, particular persons; namely those who are actually saved.

The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination by Loraine Boettner, I agree.
 
Upvote 0

JesusFreak78

Reformed Baptist
Feb 11, 2005
4,294
1,530
45
Minnesota, USA
✟27,855.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
There is so much scripture that refutes what you are teaching.

Here is the biggest problem. Calvinism is a direct attack on the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

If Jesus has not overcome sin, death and the devil he is not Lord.

If Jesus has not reconciled the world unto God he is not Lord.

If Jesus has not overcome the world, the flesh and the devil he is not Lord.

What you have as a Calvinist is a Christ that is a total failure.

He cannot atone for the sins of the world. He cannot reconcile the world unto God.

He is not Lord over all things. He is a failure.

Jesus' blood is so powerful had He died for every single person every single person would have been saved. We know not every single person isn't saved, so that leaves us with two options. Either Jesus failed or He only died for the elect. I say He only died for the elect.
 
Upvote 0

anthony55

Well-Known Member
Mar 16, 2010
3,136
75
✟3,521.00
Faith
Calvinist
Jesus Christ tells them in Matt 7:

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The word never here is the greek word:
oudepote: and means not at any time


Why would Jesus tell those people that if He Loved them and died for their sins ?

Did Jesus christ know those whom He Loved ?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums