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Featured Limited atonement destroyed

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Oct 10, 2018.

  1. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    Here is what you have failed to address now for the 4th time.

    Eph:2:11-18

    11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.



    Can the elect ever be said to be without Christ?

    Be aliens from the commonwealth of Israel?

    strangers from the covenants of promise?

    having no hope?

    without God in the world?



    This should put to rest the Calvinistic thoughts that Jesus only came to save the elect.
     
  2. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Once again ignoring the “in Christ” portion of the context.

    :doh:
     
  3. Pneuma3

    Pneuma3 Well-Known Member

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    Ignoring nothing and now it is the 5th time you have failed to answer this

    Pay attention to the questions at the end.



    Eph:2:11-18

    11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.



    Can the elect ever be said to be without Christ?

    Be aliens from the commonwealth of Israel?

    strangers from the covenants of promise?

    having no hope?

    without God in the world?



    This should put to rest the Calvinistic thoughts that Jesus only came to save the elect.
     
  4. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Wow. You are in the wrong chapter of Ephesians to discuss the elect.
     
  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Limited atonement is refuted by the Scriptures:

    "For there in one God, and one Mediator between God and MEN, the man Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." (1 Timothy 2:5-6).

    and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the WHOLE WORLD. (1 John 2:2)

    For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the UNGODLY. (Rom.5:6)

    “God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son. . . . God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” (Jn.3:16-17)

    For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone. (Rom.11:32)

    The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (Jn.1:29)

    For the Son of Man came to seek and to save that having been lost.(Lk.19:10)

    But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, because of the suffering of death, having been crowned with glory and with honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. (Heb.2:9)

    14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that One died for all, therefore all died. 15 And He died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died for them and was raised again. (2 Cor.5)

    how that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not reckoning their trespasses to them, and having put into us the word of reconciliation. (2 Cor.5:19)

    That Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. (1 Tim.1:15)

    And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. (Jn.12:32)

    Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34)

    Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Heb. 10:29)

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
    All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    And many more.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  6. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    Particular Redemption is supported by the Scriptures.

    RANSOM FOR ALL THE SHEEP, not the goats.

    For all the sheep of the past, present, and future from every nation tribe and tongue.

    While WE (Sheep) were yet sinners, Christ died for US (Sheep). (Romans 5:8) *immediate following context for the Scripture you quoted*

    "But whoever does not believe is condemned ALREADY" (John 3:18) *immediate following context for the Scripture you quoted*

    Only the revised paraphrase Living Bible (LB) the base text for the New Living Translation (NLT) uses the word "everyone" rather than the word "all". I forget the name of the fallacy you've committed but there is a name for basing an argument on a selective sample.

    You really ought to become more familiar with what the word "world" means in English translation. I guarantee it does not mean what you think it means, what you're implying it to mean. Let me ask you this, what concept or similar concept of "world" did the writers of the New Testament have?

    "For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.” (ESV)

    The lost SHEEP. Words, phrases, etc. have a context, which is crucial to understanding.

    In the context does this mean He tasted death for fallen angels, including Lucifer, and for the son of perdition?

    Once for all the SHEEP.

    Yet Christ prays not for the world? "Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him." (ESV 1 John 2:15) Like I said, you ought to become familiar with what the word "world" means to the New Testament writers.

    Do you not see how the word "world" has different meanings? Even from these Scriptures you've posted it is evident. In what sense is it being used in the Scripture you quoted? Let me suggest, in the sense the Word became flesh and the "Jewish world" beheld His glory.

    This is referring to peoples from all nations tribes and tongues, ie. Elect Jews and GENTILES.

    God is not a racist, check. He does not look on people as we do, we see on the outside, but God knows hearts and minds, and His basis for election is His mercy and love, having nothing to do with the qualities of a person.

    If I had the time, I could provide an extensive list of Scriptures supporting Particular Redemption, but thought I would respond to most of what you posted, because Scripture is on the side of the Calvinist. Sorry but it's true, I may be wrong about many things, but this is true, and more than defensible when one stands with the truth.
     
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There's no verse saying Jesus died - ONLY - for a select few.

    Also you didn't address these:

    Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Heb. 10:29)

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
    All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    And many more.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
     
  8. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Context context my friend. Let’s look at the entire dialogue of Christ in John chapter 3. He says:

    1. One must be born again to see and enter the Kingdom of God

    2. He indeed says God sent His Son not to condemn the world but to save it through Him

    3. In the same breath then says everyone who believes in Him will not be condemned but those who reject Him have been condemned already.

    Seeing the dialogue thus far Jesus confirms one must be born again; He is come so that the world can be saved through Him.

    Yet Jesus lays down a distinction of one must believe, have faith in the Son in order to have eternal life.

    Therefore, by direct words and reasoning of the Divine Logos, “world” cannot mean every person is saved. Jesus says only those who believe or have faith in Him. This is New Covenant language. The New Covenant in the Blood of Christ is based on salvation by God’s Grace through faith in Christ.

    The Baptist confirms the teaching of Christ on this matter:

    1. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life

    2. Whoever does not believe the Son does not have life and the Wrath of God remains on them.

    Jesus refutes a Universal Reconciliation. Only those in Covenant through Him, with Him and in Him have eternal life.

    John 3: NASB

    3Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”a

    4“How can a man be born when he is old?” Nicodemus asked. “Can he enter his mother’s womb a second time to be born?”

    5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

    9“How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.

    10“You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and you do not understand these things?11Truly, truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, and yet you people do not accept our testimony.

    12If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?13No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.b 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life.

    For God So Loved
    (Genesis 22:1-10; Romans 5:6-11)

    16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.18Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

    19And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever practices the truth comes into the Light, so that it may be seen clearly that what he has done has been accomplished in God.”


    John the Baptist sums up the chapter neatly:

    31The One who comes from above is above all. The one who is from the earth belongs to the earth and speaks as one from the earth. The One who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what He has seen and heard, yet no one accepts His testimony. 33Whoever accepts His testimony has certified that God is truthful. 34For the One whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God gives the Spirit without limit.

    35The Father loves the Son and has placed all things in His hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.”d
     
  9. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    You have seen it before. Again in context where we see Jesus make a distinction between His sheep and those who did not believe in Him even though they saw powers and wonders.

    John 10:
    1“Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever does not enter the sheepfold by the gate, but climbs in some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2But the one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep. 3The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen for his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

    4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will flee from him because they do not recognize his voice.”

    6Jesus spoke to them using this illustration, but they did not understand what He was telling them. 7So He said to them again, “Truly, truly, I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who came before Me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate. If anyone enters through Me, he will be saved. He will come in and go out and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I have come that they may have life, and have it in all its fullness.

    11I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.12The hired hand is not the shepherd, and the sheep are not his own. When he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf pounces on them and scatters the flock.13The man runs away because he is a hired servant and is unconcerned for the sheep.

    14I am the good shepherd. I know My sheep and My sheep know Me, 15just as the Father knows Me and I know the Father. And I lay down My life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them in as well, and they will listen to My voice. Then there will be one flock and one shepherd.

    17The reason the Father loves Me is that I lay down My life in order to take it up again. 18No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of My own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from My Father.”

    19Again there was division among the Jews because of Jesus’ message.20Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and insane. Why would you listen to Him?”

    21But others replied, “These are not the words of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”

    The Unbelief of the Jews

    22At that time the Feast of Dedicationatook place in Jerusalem. It was winter,23and Jesus was walking in the temple courts in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24So the Jews gathered around Him and demanded, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

    25“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. 26But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe. 27My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me.28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand.30I and the Father are one.”

    31At this, the Jews again picked up stones to stone Him. 32But Jesus responded, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone Me?”
     
  10. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Pilgrim

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    Mattthew 1:21 “And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins.”

    Notice the words "He will" and "His people". Clearly not all are part of the body of Christ, not all are His people.

    Matthew 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

    The verse above and others like...

    Matthew 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it."

    ...suggests a select few in contrast to the whole of mankind.

    Again if I had more time, many other verses could be used to support this. As an observation, look at Israel in contrast to the rest of the world, it is so small, but out of all the nations in the world, God chose tiny Israel, and through Israel the awesome power of the one true God on display, other larger nations were brought to their knees so to speak, not because of the superiority of Israel, but because of the God of Israel and His sovereign providence.
     
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Yes the Mosaic covenant is an excellent example. The Day of Atonement was only for Israel and not the whole world.

    The Day of Atonement was only effectual for those in the Covenant.
     
  12. Loren T.

    Loren T. Well-Known Member

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    . God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass.
     
  13. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    That's not all is it?

    I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]

    Footnotes to above:


    • [1] EPH 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. ROM 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! HEB 6:17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath. ROM 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
    • [2] JAM 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man. 17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. 1JO 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
    • [3] ACT 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain. MAT 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. ACT 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. JOH 19:11 Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. PRO 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the Lord.
     
  14. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    None of those verses say or imply Jesus died - ONLY - for a select few.

    Mt.1:21 refers to "His people" who will be saved from their sins. That's "Israel" (Mt.2:6), the nation referred to in the Old Testament, including all those who died in their sins, e.g. King Saul, Judas, the Pharisees, etc. This is truly "good news", not the bad news of Calvinism.

    Furthermore, if those verses meant what you think, then they'd contradict each other. For one would speak of "many" lost (Mt.7:13) few saved (v.14) & the other speak of "many" saved & "few" lost (Mt.22:14). Here again we have "many" saved:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

    “In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

    Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

    Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

    "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

    For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

    "Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

    "Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

    108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

    "The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
    "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

    "It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

    (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
     
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There's no limited atonement or refuting of Universal Reconciliation in John 3.

    The disobedient are under God's wrath. Yet even His wrath is to correct them:

    Because I have sinned against him, I will bear the LORD’s wrath, until he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light;I will see his righteousness. (Micah 7:9)

    Some more literal versions of John 3:36 read:

    The Emphasized Bible (Rotherham) translates the verse, "He that believes on the Son hath life age-abiding; whereas he that yieldeth not unto the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God awaiteth him."

    The Emphatic Diaglott (Wilson): "He believing into the Son has aionian life; but he disobeying the Son shall not see life, but the anger of God abides on him."

    Young's Literal Translation: "He who is believing in the Son hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain on him."

    John 3:36 He who is believing in the Son has life eonian, yet he who is stubborn as to the Son shall not be seeing life, but the indignation of God is remaining on him." (CLNT)

    This means as long as the stubborn remain stubborn or unbelieving they will not see eonian life.

    It does not mean that the unbeliever or stubborn cannot change and become a believer. If that were true, then no one could be saved, because we were all stubborn and unbelievers at one point.

    It does not deny that all will eventually believe & have their sins taken away. On the contrary the same writer already wrote two chapters before:

    1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

    In chapter 4 he writes:

    39 Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman’s testimony, “He told me everything I ever did.” 40 So when the Samaritans came to him,
    they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41 And because of his words many more became believers.

    42 They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”

    John 3:36 does not say a person can only believe in this life time. Or that God's love runs out when a person dies.

    The early church father, Origen, speaks of what is "after eonian life" (mistranslated in the KJV "eternal life"):

    "...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."

    Journal of Analytic Theology

    Because I have sinned against him,I will bear the Lord's WRATH, UNTIL he pleads my case and upholds my cause. He will bring me out into the light; I will see his righteousness.(Micah 7:9)

    AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive (1 Cor.15:22)

    1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…


    Clearly it is "time limited". All were at one time "unbelievers" with the "wrath of God" on them. Yet many of those unbelievers became believers. These believers no longer have the "wrath of God" on them. There - was - a "time limit" to how long the "wrath of God" was on them. And likewise there was a "time limit" till those who "shall not see life" did in fact "see life".

    Even apostates who had once believed are being sought by God for salvation & being corrected for their own good:

    1 Tim.1:19 holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. 20 Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.…

    Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

    (19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John

    In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

    4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

    The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

    Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

    Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

    Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

    Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

    In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

    Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

    Two Questions
    Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

    If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

    How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

    Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

    ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

    could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

    12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
     
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Could not any non Israelite in the world be circumcised & join Israel by becoming a Jew?
    Does Calvinism teach that all non Israelites were doomed before birth to go to hell forever because they were born in the wrong country in the OT? What does Paul say:

    God overlooked the OT times of ignorance:

    Acts 17: 26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation,27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’ 29“Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.30“Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,

    Romans 2:5 God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God.

    12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another 16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
     
  17. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    God's Atonement is effectual.

    35The Father loves the Son and has placed all things in His hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

    Therefore effectual for those who believe.
     
  18. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    Yes John 3 and John 10 refute unlimited atonement.

    The access is by Grace through Faith.

    The ones who reject Christ and do not believe are condemned already and God's wrath remains on them.

    It is quite obvious the Blood of the New Covenant in Christ is not appropriated by unbelief and rebellion. You would need to show where that is explicitly taught.
     
  19. redleghunter

    redleghunter Thank You Jesus! Supporter

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    I was making the correlation between the Mosiac Covenant and its limited atonement of Leviticus 16.

    An expository examination which people applying a systematic theology can do as it produces consistency.

    As opposed to the chaotic nature of pitting verses out of context does in jigsaw theology.
     
  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Which is entirely irrelevant to the range of Christ's atonement, whether it be limited or unlimited. And which you have not proven in any case. OTOH there is no scripture saying Jesus died ONLY for a select few. And an abundance of Scriptures which anyone not brainwashed by Calvinism would understand to oppose limited atonement:

    "For there in one God, and one Mediator between God and MEN, the man Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." (1 Timothy 2:5-6).

    and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the WHOLE WORLD. (1 John 2:2)

    For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the UNGODLY. (Rom.5:6)

    “God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son. . . . God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” (Jn.3:16-17)

    For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone. (Rom.11:32)

    The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (Jn.1:29)

    For the Son of Man came to seek and to save that having been lost.(Lk.19:10)

    But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, because of the suffering of death, having been crowned with glory and with honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. (Heb.2:9)

    14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that One died for all, therefore all died. 15 And He died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died for them and was raised again. (2 Cor.5)

    how that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not reckoning their trespasses to them, and having put into us the word of reconciliation. (2 Cor.5:19)

    That Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. (1 Tim.1:15)

    And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. (Jn.12:32)

    Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34)

    Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Heb. 10:29)

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
    All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2018
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