Limited atonement destroyed

[redleghunter]

Now 2 questions for you: will all those drawn to Christ get saved? Will all those who come to God (or Christ) get saved? Yes or no?

All answered here:

John 10

And here:

John 6

 

[ClementofA]

Ok you won’t answer the question which completely refutes UR.

What is that refutation? The one i already answered re bowing?

Now 2 questions for you: will all those drawn to Christ get saved? Will all those who come to God (or Christ) get saved? Yes or no?

 

[FineLinen]

And I'm right.

Dear Red: How can any single person be so wrong & still in their humble opinion be right? You must place your dogma on hold & listen carefully!

1 Tim. 4.10

"God is the Savior of all mankind. Command this & teach this."

Alternate plan b for unbelieving believers=

God is the Savior of some of mankind. Command this & teach this.

 

[Loren T.]

A false dichotomy. Mankind sins.

St James said God does not tempt us.

James 1:13

According to Calvinists, man sins because God decrees his sin. It's not a false dichotomy, they are just wrong.

 

[redleghunter]

According to Calvinists, man sins because God decrees his sin. It's not a false dichotomy, they are just wrong.

Can you quote me in the Westminster Confession of Faith that God decrees our sin?

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Red: Obviously all does not mean all. Obviously Pas is not the radical all.

Phl 2:9-11 Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord.

plan b = Some tongues shall confess Jesus is Lord.

Rom. 11:26 All Israel will be saved.

plan b= Some of Israel will be saved.

plan b =

Acts 3:20,21 Restitution of all.

plan b= Restitution of some.

Luke 2:10 Jesus will be joy to all people.

plan b= Jesus will be joy to some people.

Heb 8:11,12 All will know God.

plan b= Some will know God.

Titus 2:11 Grace has appeared to all.

plan b= Grace has appeared to some.

1 Tim. 4.10 God is the Savior of all mankind. Command this & teach this.

plan b= God is the Savior of some of mankind. Command this & teach this.

Red says

All people does not mean everyone. The only place where we see “everyone” or “whosoever” is in relationship with belief and faith. See John 3:15-20

Rom 8:19-21 All created life shall be set free/ delivered.

Alternate plan b= some of created life shall be set free/ delivered.

 

[redleghunter]

Rom 8:19-21 All created life shall be set free/ delivered.

Alternate plan b= some of created life shall be set free/ delivered.

No alternative plan. It’s all based on the sons of God.

Romans 8:

18I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently.



Notice Children of God and sons of God and tied to the Resurrection.

Nowhere does it speak of the children of wrath becoming the children of God.

God’s chosen in Christ inherit the earth.

 

[FineLinen]

No alternative plan. It’s all based on the sons of God.

Romans 8:

18I consider that our present sufferings are not comparable to the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the revelation of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will, but because of the One who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

22We know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved; but hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he can already see? 25But if we hope for what we do not yet see, we wait for it patiently.

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Red: There is only an alternate plan b for unbelieving believers.

NOTE

1. The entire radical pas will be delivered, not few, not many: the entire groaning creation shall be delivered.

2. The entire radical pas of creation was made subject to futility "not willingly"/ not by any choice of its own.

3. The subjection of the same radical pas is by reason of "HIM" who so subjected it.

4. The whole radical pas is comprised of every broken sinner in Adam1 & includes the "first fruits" of His love & grace.

The whole of created life (the ktisis) shall be delivered/set free!

 

[ClementofA]

Nowhere does it speak of the children of wrath becoming the children of God.

It does. See Ephesians:

2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

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[redleghunter]

Dear Red: There is only an alternate plan b for unbelieving believers.

NOTE

1. The entire radical pas will be delivered, not few, not many: the entire groaning creation shall be delivered.

2. The entire radical pas of creation was made subject to futility "not willingly"/ not by any choice of its own.

3. The subjection of the same radical pas is by reason of "HIM" who so subjected it.

4. The whole radical pas is comprised of every broken sinner in Adam1 & includes the "first fruits" of His love & grace.

The whole of created life (the ktisis) shall be delivered/set free!

Again ignoring the distinction of how this creation was waiting for the sons of God and children of God to be revealed. These are Christ’s redeemed who will enter His Kingdom.

Your pas root word fallacy does not negate proper exegesis. This is also the Reading between the lines” fallacy.

The serious issue with Universalist Reconciliation is it lacks a systematic approach to the entire revelation of the Holy Spirit in Holy Scriptures.

That is why these threads go on for pages.

 

[redleghunter]

It does. See Ephesians:

2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

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Yes keep reading. Those in Christ saved by Grace through faith. And back up to chapter 1 where Paul outlines the elect in Christ.

UR fails the systematic approach completely ignoring there are those in Christ and those who are not. That there will be judgement and such is final.

 

[Der Alte]

It does. See Ephesians:
2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others....

Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything by quoting selective texts out-of-context e.g. Psalms 14:1 and Psalms 53:1 says "There is no god."
Let's review the context of the above verse.

Ephesians 2:2-5
(2) in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
(3) All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
(4) But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
(5) made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.​

"used to live" - past tense, "followed the ways"-past tense, "lived among"- past tense, "were by nature"- past tense, "made us alive" - past tense, "we were dead"-past tense. "God... made us alive with Christ"-past tense. This quite evidently happened while they were still alive in this world. This verse says nothing about a chance for salvation after death.

John 3:16-18
(16) For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(17) For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
(18) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.​

Whoever does not believe in Jesus are condemned already and shall not have eternal life..

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.​

He that does not endure to the end shall not be saved.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved​

He that does not endure to the end shall not be saved.

Rev_2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:​

He that does not overcome and keep the works of Jesus will not receive power over the nations

Mar 13:13
(13) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.​

He that does not endure to the end shall not be saved.

Heb 3:6
(6) But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.​

Those are not Christ's house if they do not hold fast the confidence and hope unto the end.

Heb 3:14
(14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;​

We are not made partakers of Christ if we do not hold our confidence steadfast to the end.

 

[ClementofA]

UR fails the systematic approach completely ignoring there are those in Christ and those who are not.

Actually biblical universalism acknowledges that fact.

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
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[ClementofA]

Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything by quoting selective texts out-of-context e.g. Psalms 14:1 and Psalms 53:1 says "There is no god."
Let's review the context of the above verse.

Ephesians 2:2-5
(2) in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
(3) All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
(4) But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
(5) made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.​

"used to live" - past tense, "followed the ways"-past tense, "lived among"- past tense, "were by nature"- past tense, "made us alive" - past tense, "we were dead"-past tense. "God... made us alive with Christ"-past tense. This quite evidently happened while they were still alive in this world. This verse says nothing about a chance for salvation after death.

John 3:16-18
(16) For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(17) For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
(18) Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.​

Whoever does not believe in Jesus are condemned already and shall not have eternal life..

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.​

He that does not endure to the end shall not be saved.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved​

He that does not endure to the end shall not be saved.

Rev_2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:​

He that does not overcome and keep the works of Jesus will not receive power over the nations

Mar 13:13
(13) And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.​

He that does not endure to the end shall not be saved.

Heb 3:6
(6) But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.​

Those are not Christ's house if they do not hold fast the confidence and hope unto the end.

Heb 3:14
(14) For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;​

We are not made partakers of Christ if we do not hold our confidence steadfast to the end.

All those verses & others have been addressed here before & shown how they harmonize with biblical universalism. For example John 3:16:

For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eonian (aionion) life. (Jn. 3:16).

In John 3:16 there is no question that those who are believing - shall - not perish. Even though the subjunctive "should" is used. For it is used with the hina (so that) indicating purpose or result.

Likewise, in the very next verse, Jn.3:17, the hina occurs again with subjunctive, just as it does in John 3:16:

For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. (Jn.3:17)

There we see God's reason in sending His Son, namely to save the world. That was the Diivine will of God, Who is Love Omnipotent. And notice what BDAG says about the "divine will":

“In many cases purpose and result cannot be clearly differentiated, and hence ἵνα is used for the result that follows according to the purpose of the subj. or of God. As in Semitic and Gr-Rom. thought, purpose and result are identical in declarations of the divine will…” ἵνα — с греческого на все языки

More literal versions of John 3:16 say:

16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. (CLV)

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son—the only begotten—He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during. (YLT)

16 For God, so loved, the world, that, his Only Begotten Son, he gave,—that, whosoever believeth on him, might not perish, but have life age-abiding. (Ro)

16 Thus for loved the God the world, so that the son of himself the only-begotten he gave, that every one who believing into him, not may be destroyed, but may have life age-lasting. (Diaglott)

Perish for how long & in what way? The same Greek word for "perish" is used of the prodigal son who was "lost" but later found. He was ruined, not annihilated.

Not everyone will get EONIAN life, which pro Endless Hell club, anti universalist, versions mistranslate as "eternal life". Those who believe before they die get EONIAN life. They will live & reign with Christ for the 1000 years of the millennial EON (Rev.20). Unbelievers will not. They go to "hell" until they repent & are saved, since God becomes "all in ALL" (1 Cor.15:22-28). For Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (Jn.1:29), "the Saviour of the world" (John 4:42), Who will draw all to Himself (John 12:32).

John 3:16 says unbelievers "perish", not that they perish endlessly. If Jesus had wanted to say "perish endlessly" there was a Greek word for "endless" He could have used (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4). He could have also used the words "no end" (Lk.1:33) of perishing. Clearly endless punishment is not the teaching of the Word of God.

"While we are on the topic, however, I might mention that, alongside various, often seemingly contradictory images of eschatological punishment, the New Testament also contains a large number of seemingly explicit statements of universal salvation, excluding no one (for instance, John 3:17; 12:32, 47; Romans 5:18-19; 11:32; 1 Corinthians 15:22; 2 Corinthians 5:14, 19; Philippians 2:9-11; 1 Timothy 2:3-6;4:10; Titus 2:11; Hebrews 2:9; 2 Peter 3:9; Colossians 1:19-20; 1 John 2:2 … to mention only some of the most striking). To me it is surpassingly strange that, down the centuries, most Christians have come to believe that the former class of claims—all of which are metaphorical, pictorial, vague, and elliptical in form—must be regarded as providing the “literal” content of the New Testament’s teaching, while the latter—which are invariably straightforward doctrinal statements—must be regarded as mere hyperbole. It is one of the great mysteries of Christian history (or perhaps of a certain kind of religious psychopathology)."

Anent Garry Wills and the “DBH” Version

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[redleghunter]

Actually biblical universalism acknowledges that fact.

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
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A bunch of verses out of context does not amount to a systematic theology. It's jigsaw puzzle theology.

I would not be concerned. There's a lot of that out there these days.

 

[ClementofA]

A bunch of verses out of context does not amount to a systematic theology. It's jigsaw puzzle theology.

I would not be concerned. There's a lot of that out there these days.

My impression from our many posts debating universalism is you are not well read or informed on the subject. There are dozens of books on the topic.

Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

Yes keep reading. Those in Christ saved by Grace through faith. And back up to chapter 1 where Paul outlines the elect in Christ.

UR fails the systematic approach completely ignoring there are those in Christ and those who are not. That there will be judgement and such is final.

Let's see how many will be "in Christ" according to chapter 1:

Eph.1:10 to have an administration of the complement of the eras, to head up all in the Christ - both that in the heavens and that on the earth 11 in Him in Whom our lot was cast also, being designated beforehand according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will,

Those in the heavens (Eph.1:10) include spiritually wicked beings:

Eph.6:12 because we are not wrestling against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world's rulers, of the darkness of this age, against the spiritual hosts of evil in the heavenlies.

So, they, also, will be saved "in Christ" as per Eph.1:10.

 

[ClementofA]

A bunch of verses out of context does not amount to a systematic theology. It's jigsaw puzzle theology.

Calvinism injects their biased interpretations into Scriptures that when read by objective observers clearly oppose their views & calls those biased imaginations reading according to "context". What a joke.

Limited atonement is refuted by the Scriptures:

"For there in one God, and one Mediator between God and MEN, the man Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." (1 Timothy 2:5-6).

and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the WHOLE WORLD. (1 John 2:2)

For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the UNGODLY. (Rom.5:6)

“God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son. . . . God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” (Jn.3:16-17)

For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone. (Rom.11:32)

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (Jn.1:29)

For the Son of Man came to seek and to save that having been lost.(Lk.19:10)

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, because of the suffering of death, having been crowned with glory and with honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. (Heb.2:9)

14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that One died for all, therefore all died. 15 And He died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died for them and was raised again. (2 Cor.5)

how that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not reckoning their trespasses to them, and having put into us the word of reconciliation. (2 Cor.5:19)

That Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. (1 Tim.1:15)

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. (Jn.12:32)

Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34)

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Heb. 10:29)

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And many more.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

This verse destroys limited atonement:

But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you also, who will stealthily introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master having bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Pet.2:1)

Bryson says even Calvin’s commentary admits:

“It is no small matter to have the souls perish who were bought by the blood of Christ”

(The Dark Side of Calvinism, p.162).

https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Side-Calvinism-Calvinist-CALVINISM/dp/1931667888

So I am guessing you think "even denying the Master having bought them" proves particular redemption false. I am guessing you read Christ the Master died for everyone including these false teachers into the verse, hence "bought them". This would be the dark side of a universal atonement, the notion of Christ having "bought" even folks who bring swift destruction upon themselves.

Notice the wording is "The Master", not their Master. If anything the verse could be interpreted as, these false teachers even deny substitutional atonement ("bought them").