• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Limited atonement destroyed

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Oct 10, 2018.

  1. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,101
    Non-Denom
    Private
    This verse destroys limited atonement:

    But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you also, who will stealthily introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master having bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Pet.2:1)

    Bryson says even Calvin’s commentary admits:

    “It is no small matter to have the souls perish who were bought by the blood of Christ”

    (The Dark Side of Calvinism, p.162).

    https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Side-Calvinism-Calvinist-CALVINISM/dp/1931667888

    "For there in one God, and one Mediator between God and MEN, the man Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." (1 Timothy 2:5-6).

    and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the WHOLE WORLD. (1 John 2:2)

    For at just the right time, while we were still powerless, Christ died for the UNGODLY. (Rom.5:6)

    “God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son. . . . God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” (Jn.3:16-17)

    For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone. (Rom.11:32)

    The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (Jn.1:29)

    For the Son of Man came to seek and to save that having been lost.(Lk.19:10)

    But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, because of the suffering of death, having been crowned with glory and with honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. (Heb.2:9)

    14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that One died for all, therefore all died. 15 And He died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died for them and was raised again. (2 Cor.5)

    how that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not reckoning their trespasses to them, and having put into us the word of reconciliation. (2 Cor.5:19)

    That Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. (1 Tim.1:15)

    And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. (Jn.12:32)

    Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10:34)

    Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? (Heb. 10:29)

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
    All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. nonaeroterraqueous

    nonaeroterraqueous Nonexistent Member

    +947
    United States
    Protestant
    Married
    That verse has nothing to do with limited atonement.

    The good news of the Gospel of Christ is salvation to those who believe. This is as true for the Arminian as it is for the Calvinist. Without Christ, we are dead in our sins, but by grace, through faith, we are saved, and that is true for both sides.

    The good news is that Christ will be faithful to save those whom the Father has given him, and he will not lose even one of us. That is worthy news that the Arminian position cannot claim.

    That most people will reject Christ and pay the penalty is equally bad news for both sides, but without Christ the news would be even worse. More people will not burn in Hell because one side or the other happens to be right.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • List
  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,101
    Non-Denom
    Private
    It refutes limited atonement.
     
  4. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +20,973
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    John 10:15 obliterates unlimited atonement.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  5. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,101
    Non-Denom
    Private
    It doesn't because it doesn't say Jesus died "only" for the sheep, as i elaborated on here:

    Did Jesus die only for the sheep (cf. John 10)?

    Jesus died ONLY for the sheep = Jesus death is LIMITED to only the sheep

    Jesus died for the sheep = Jesus died for AT LEAST the sheep, if not others also

    It's simple logic.
     
  6. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +20,973
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    No it’s not simple logic as Jesus clearly says in John 10 He lays His life down for the sheep twice. He also in the same chapter told some debating Him that they are not His sheep.

    Therefore, not His sheep, they are goats.

    Embrace the paradox.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
    • List
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

    +1,101
    Non-Denom
    Private
    That's just simple denial. As opposed to addressing the logical arguments.

    You merely reiterated your point while ignoring how it was refuted.

    Relevance to the topic?
     
  8. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +20,973
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Actually your point was refuted. John 10 makes that very clear.

    What did Jesus say about His own Blood in Matthew 26:28 and Luke 22:20?
     
  9. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +600
    Non-Denom
    Dear Clement: I know of only one passage of Canon that expresses "limited" in relation to the unlimited One!

    "You have limited the Holy One of Israel."
     
  10. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +600
    Non-Denom
    Dear Red: A couple of questions for you>>>>>

    1. What are the defining characteristics of a goat & a sheep according to the context of Matt. 25?

    2. Why is the parable of the Master in Matt. 25 following the 10 virgins, 5 wise and foolish? Please note: all ten are virgins.
     
  11. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +20,973
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    The sheep are separated immediately from the goats.

    5 didn't believe their master and suffered the consequences. We call this unbelief and no matter how hard they slammed on the door, the answer was "I never knew you." Wheat and tares.
     
  12. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +600
    Non-Denom
    Dear Red: There is nothing in the context of St. Matt. 25 that indicates unbelief: NOTHING!

    Nor, my friend, is a "never knew you indicated".

    Now try again>>>what are the defining characteristics of a goat & a sheep according to St. Matt. 25 & why does this narrative follow the 10 virgins; why?
     
  13. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +20,973
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Indeed there is. 5 virgins did not have enough oil. They did not believe their Master would return. That is unbelief.

    Sure did you miss this?

    “But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’ (Matthew 25:12)

    Again, the defining characteristics out of the gate are (1) there is a distinction between sheep and goats before the Master even speaks. (2) the sheep are separated to His right hand side and the goats to the left hand side.
     
  14. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +600
    Non-Denom
     
  15. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +600
    Non-Denom
    Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

    2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.

    3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

    4But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.

    5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

    6And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

    7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

    8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

    9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

    10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

    11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

    12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

    13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

    14For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.

    15And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

    16Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.

    17And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.

    18But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.

    19After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

    20And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.

    21His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

    22He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.

    23His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

    24Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:

    25And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, therethou hast that is thine.

    26His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

    27Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.

    28Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

    29For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

    30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

    32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

    33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

    36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

    37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

    38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

    39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

    40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

    41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

    42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

    43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

    44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

    45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

    46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
     
  16. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +600
    Non-Denom
    Dear Red: Lack of preparation is not unbelief: "unwise" but not unbelief. These ten virgins are not 5 harlots or loose women, and 5 pure virgins. They are all virgins, 5 wise & 5 foolish.

    The Lord's flocks are sheep & goats, both clean animals, not sheep and pigs or sheep & dogs, which are unclean animals in the Scriptures.

    ON the SHEEP and the GOATS By Jonathan Mitchell
     
  17. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +20,973
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    They had no oil. Oil is a symbol of what from your historic Christianity? Anointing. These 5 lacked the sealing and anointing of the Holy Spirit.

    Did not say they were. In fact to the casual eye there would be no difference between all 10 virgins. What is distinct are the 5 who have no oil, which means they did not expect their Master to return, which means they did not believe Him.

    Yes both clean animals closely related as are Wheat and Tares.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +600
    Non-Denom
    Dear Red: Of course they expected the Bridegroom to return! They were heading out to meet Him, unprepared, but going out to meet Him.>>>>"and went forth to meet the bridegroom."
     
  19. redleghunter

    redleghunter Abide Boldy my friend Supporter

    +20,973
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    If they did they would have oil. They did not and the Bridegroom said He did not know them.
     
  20. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

    +600
    Non-Denom
    Dear Red: Do you know what "unprepared" means? The 5 virgins had no oil because they were unprepared for the Bridegroom: they not only were unprepared, they were slumbering and sleeping. When the call came these foolish virgins were rubbing their tired eyes as they went out to meet Him with zero oil.

    Unprepared=

    Properly expectant, organized, or equipped; ready.

    Yup the virgins, the talents, and the sheep & goats are all speaking of the Lords people!

    ON the SHEEP and the GOATS By Jonathan Mitchell
     
Loading...