Limited atonement destroyed

[redleghunter]

Dear Red: Do you know what "unprepared" means? The 5 virgins had no oil because they were unprepared for the Bridegroom: they not only were unprepared, they were slumbering and sleeping. When the call came these foolish virgins were rubbing their tired eyes as they went out to meet Him with zero oil.

Yes they were unprepared because they did not believe the Master would return. Again, He said “But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’

Unprepared=

Properly expectant, organized, or equipped; ready.

Huh?

un·pre·pared
ˌənprəˈperd/
adjective
adjective: unprepared

1. not ready or able to deal with something.
   "she was totally unprepared for what happened next"
   synonyms: unready, (caught) off (one's) guard, surprised, taken aback; More
   caught napping, caught flat-footed, caught with one's pants down
   "we were unprepared for the rate hike"
   antonyms: ready
   • not willing to do something.
     "they were unprepared to accept what was proposed"
     synonyms: unwilling, disinclined, loath, reluctant, resistant, opposed
     "they are unprepared to support the reforms"
     antonyms: willing
   • (of a thing) not made ready for use.
     "paintings on unprepared canvas"

Yup the virgins, the talents, and the sheep & goats are all speaking of the Lords people!

Don't know which version of the Bible you are reading. This is what it actually says:

Parable of the Virgins:
“But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’

Parable of the Talents:
“Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Sheep and Goats:

‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

 

[FineLinen]

Yes they were unprepared because they did not believe the Master would return. Again, He said “But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’


Huh?

un·pre·pared
ˌənprəˈperd/
adjective
adjective: unprepared

1. not ready or able to deal with something.
   "she was totally unprepared for what happened next"
   synonyms: unready, (caught) off (one's) guard, surprised, taken aback; More
   caught napping, caught flat-footed, caught with one's pants down
   "we were unprepared for the rate hike"
   antonyms: ready
   • not willing to do something.
     "they were unprepared to accept what was proposed"
     synonyms: unwilling, disinclined, loath, reluctant, resistant, opposed
     "they are unprepared to support the reforms"
     antonyms: willing
   • (of a thing) not made ready for use.
     "paintings on unprepared canvas"

Don't know which version of the Bible you are reading. This is what it actually says:

Parable of the Virgins:
“But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’

Parable of the Talents:
“Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Sheep and Goats:

‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Dear Red: The entire chapter of St. Matthew 25 is one continuous disclosure of virgins, talents & sheep & goats, speaking of unprepared individuals in Father's House.

God induces all good people to pray for the salvation of ALL men, which he could not do, if it were opposed to his will, because, "if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us", (1 John 5:14) and because "THE DESIRE OF THE RIGHTEOUS SHALL BE GRANTED". (Prov. 10:24)

This is what we are commanded to teach

" God is the Saviour of all mankind, especially those who believe (trust in Him). Command this & teach this."

Questions:

1. Is God the Saviour of all mankind or a potential Saviour?

2. What does especially mean in koine?

Especially=

Particularly

Exceptionally

Markedly

Especially= malista= ?

 

[ClementofA]

Actually your point was refuted. John 10 makes that very clear.

More denial. And i don't refer to a river in Egypt.

What did Jesus say about His own Blood in Matthew 26:28 and Luke 22:20?

What now? Are you going to try to limit the atonement even further, to only the 12 disciples, including Judas:

Lk.22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

1 Jn.2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Your position just went from hopeless to worse than hopeless, if that were even possible.

 

[redleghunter]

Dear Red: The entire chapter of St. Matthew 25 is one continuous disclosure of virgins, talents & sheep & goats, speaking of unprepared individuals in Father's House.

And as I pointed out, no you are incorrect.

Parable of the Virgins:
“But he answered, ‘Truly I say to you, I do not know you.’

Parable of the Talents:
“Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Sheep and Goats:

‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

 

[1stcenturylady]

The good news is that Christ will be faithful to save those whom the Father has given him, and he will not lose even one of us. That is worthy news that the Arminian position cannot claim.

I've read those verses in the gospels, but have found who Jesus was actually speaking of - his 12 disciples, minus one - Judas.

John 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled."

We learn much from reading all the gospels as one.

This about the disciples is in line with predestination. Read Ephesians 1 with this in mind: The Jews were predestined to be the chosen nation. Out of the Jews, the 12 disciples were the first to receive the gospel - they also were among the predestined.

7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence, 9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself, 10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth—in Him. 11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.

All others who are saved are known from the foreknowledge of God.

This misunderstanding of the difference between predestination and God's foreknowledge has lead to some strange twisted beliefs about the nature of God who is seen as condemning some to hell from before the foundation of the world.

Not even all the "elect" are saved. All of the children of Israel from the predestined nation are called "the elect." We are responsible for ourselves and must work out our own salvation. Isaiah 45:4 "For Jacob My servant’s sake, And Israel My elect, I have even called you by your name; I have named you, though you have not known Me.

 

[redleghunter]

What did Jesus say about His own Blood in Matthew 26:28 and Luke 22:20?

What now? Are you going to try to limit the atonement even further, to only the 12 disciples, including Judas:

Lk.22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Will you answer the question posed? What did Jesus say about His own Blood in Matthew 26:28 and Luke 22:20?

 

[Hazelelponi]

Dear Red: Do you know what "unprepared" means? The 5 virgins had no oil because they were unprepared for the Bridegroom: they not only were unprepared, they were slumbering and sleeping. When the call came these foolish virgins were rubbing their tired eyes as they went out to meet Him with zero oil.

Unprepared=

Properly expectant, organized, or equipped; ready.

Yup the virgins, the talents, and the sheep & goats are all speaking of the Lords people!

ON the SHEEP and the GOATS By Jonathan Mitchell

You might just be reading too much into "virgin".

There was a marriage ritual back in first century Israel.

There was a Bride and a Bridegroom. The engagement was just as much marriage as the marriage itself, although they lived apart. So when the engagement period was over the groom would come with his witnesses, and the bride would wait with her witnesses for the groom. Each, the bride and the groom, had 10 witnesses, the girls who waited with the bride were often young, her friends, which were called virgins, but her parents attended as well..

The groom would take the bride while the witnesses waited outside, and consummate the marriage. The bloodied cloth was then presented as proof of her virginity to the crowd who celebrated and waited outside during the consummation.

At that point all who were gathered made a procession to the groom's house, where the new bride would be living from this night forward, for the marriage supper. (Party)

Jesus made a reference to something known to them... the virgins reference don't necessarily mean therefore, they were saved, the reference just means they had close association with the bride, but in the end the Lord did not admit them because they were "unknown" to Him.

Close association/freindship in Christianity never means saved and Spirit filled. It just means they gave a pretense that was, in the end, false.

 

[FineLinen]

You might just be reading too much into "virgin".

Dear Hazel: If anything we fail to not grasp the scope of the Master's words or the understanding of the same. The depth of parthenos we will leave up to the Master, but thank you for your post.

Revelation 14:4 - These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Dear Hazel: If anything we fail to not grasp the scope of the Master's words or the understanding of the same. The depth of parthenos we will leave up to the Master, but thank you for your post.

Revelation 14:4 - These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins.

A bridesmaid has no need to be undefiled.. they were simply usually of the same age and freinds with the bride so they would appear similar on the surface.

The point of the parable is that if your not sufficiently betrothed to Jesus, (i.e. He needs to know you, not just you know Him), then you won't be accepted.

Your forcing an undefiled state on people who don't have one.

If they were truly undefiled they would have had sufficient oil, now wouldn't they? God isn't just rejecting people willy nilly for no reason - he's rejecting them for not truly belonging to Him in Spirit and in Truth.

 

[ClementofA]

Will you answer the question posed? What did Jesus say about His own Blood in Matthew 26:28 and Luke 22:20?

Why don't you give me your opinion?

What now? Are you going to try to limit the atonement even further, to only the 12 disciples, including Judas:

Lk.22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

 

[FineLinen]

A bridesmaid has no need to be undefiled.. they were simply usually of the same age and freinds with the bride.

The point of he parable is that if your not sufficiently betrothed to God, (i.e. He needs to know you, not just you know Him), then you won't be accepted.

Your forcing an undefiled state on people who don't have one.

If they were truly undefiled they would have had sufficient oil, now wouldn't they? God isn't just rejecting people willy nilly for no reason - he's rejecting them for not truly belonging to Him in Spirit and in Truth.

Dear Hazel: Again, the 5 wise virgins were prepared, the 5 unwise were unprepared. They slumbered and slept instead of preparing to go out to meet the Bridegroom. The parthenos virgins are part of the ongoing parable of Christ Jesus encompassing individuals investing poorly, and the Lord's flock of clean animals, sheep & goats.

Do you know what ta panta means?

From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists & in Him the all ends.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Dear Hazel: Again, the 5 wise virgins were prepared, the 5 unwise were unprepared. They slumbered and slept instead of preparing to go out to meet the Bridegroom. The parthenos virgins are part of the ongoing parable of Christ Jesus encompassing individuals investing poorly, and the Lord's flock of clean animals, sheep & goats.

Do you know what ta panta means?

From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists & in Him the all ends.

What is the oil they didn't have?

Where do we get the oil from?

How do we get the oil?

Why did they need their own oil, seeing as how they were in such close proximity (the same tent) while waiting for the Groom?

And furthermore, when do we get the oil?

These are the pertinent questions to the parable.

 

[redleghunter]

Why don't you give me your opinion?

What now? Are you going to try to limit the atonement even further, to only the 12 disciples, including Judas:

Lk.22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

For some reason you keep out the Matthew reference.

Here it is:

for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

The Blood of Christ the atonement is for the many who are in His New Covenant.

 

[ClementofA]

For some reason you keep out the Matthew reference.

Here it is:

for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many unto remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

The Blood of Christ the atonement is for the many who are in His New Covenant.

Calvinism doesn't have one verse of Scripture saying the atonement is for "ONLY" the elect. And - twists - a bunch of verses that clearly refute limited atonement. As for Mathew 26:28 which refers to "many" compare the word "many" in Romans 5:19a:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

 

[redleghunter]

Calvinism doesn't have one verse of Scripture saying the atonement is for "ONLY" the elect. And - twists - a bunch of verses that clearly refute limited atonement. As for Mathew 26:28 which refers to "many" compare the word "many" in Romans 5:19a:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

The Covenant is in His Blood. It means one must be of the Covenant which is effectual. Which is caused by the New Birth.

Unless of course you can find me that one verse which says unrepentant sinners who reject Christ are justified by the Covenant Blood of Christ. Such would be outside the Covenant making the atonement ineffectual.

 

[redleghunter]

Calvinism doesn't have one verse of Scripture saying the atonement is for "ONLY" the elect.

No but the Bible does.

John 10: NASB

11“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12“He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13“He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14“I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17“For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

[...]

25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”

John 3: NASB
14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

The Finished Work of Christ is decisive and not arbitrary.

The blood of the covenant decisively secures our faith. Which is evidenced by the New Birth.

Those in rebellion unrepentant and those in unbelief would secure what exactly from the atonement?

 

[FineLinen]

Calvinism doesn't have one verse of Scripture saying the atonement is for "ONLY" the elect. And - twists - a bunch of verses that clearly refute limited atonement. As for Mathew 26:28 which refers to "many" compare the word "many" in Romans 5:19a:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Dear Clement: Do not confuse Red with an equation!

"through the disobedience of one the polus are constituted sinners>>>>

THUS ALSO/ even so

through the obedience of One shall the polus be constituted just/righteous."

 

[mark kennedy]

No but the Bible does.

John 10: NASB

11“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12“He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13“He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14“I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17“For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

[...]

25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”

John 3: NASB
14“As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

The Finished Work of Christ is decisive and not arbitrary.

The blood of the covenant decisively secures our faith. Which is evidenced by the New Birth.

Those in rebellion unrepentant and those in unbelief would secure what exactly from the atonement?

There is nothing in the New Testament suggesting atonement is applid to unbelivers. Jesus says from the cross 'it is finished', which literally means paid in.full. The veil in the Temple is torn in two, the holy of hollies housed the very presence of God. Jesus had made atonement once and for all, that atonement is recieved by grace through faith. I really dont see anything controversial about that.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[FineLinen]

From eternity past God intended that the most vivid and profound demonstration of his glory would come in the form of His work of salvation on the cross of Christ.

- God then made man to punish him.

- He made him perfect and thus unlikely to ever need punishing, or, for that matter, need a Savior.

- By a happy coincidence, and against all the odds, this perfect man sinned, thus allowing God to fulfill His purposes for both the man and Christ.

- When he sinned, God, who is suddenly confronted with the prospect of being able to fulfill all of His original plans, becomes furious.

What you have just read is not a joke. I wish that it were. Rather, I have simply enumerated the points that comprise the Calvinist theological system, or, as I call it: the Happy Coincidence model of sin and salvation.

'It reflects what can only be described as an Alice-in-Wonderland reality, in which the only sense is nonsense, and logic is the enemy. This book will seek to explore some of its many logical inconsistencies and, in the process, propose a perfectly viable--and biblical--alternative.


The Calvinist Universalist | WipfandStock.com

 

[zoidar]

John 10:15 obliterates unlimited atonement.

Is there anywhere in the Bible where it says that a person can't become Jesus sheep?