Limited atonement destroyed

FineLinen

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Is there anywhere in the Bible where it says that a person can't become Jesus sheep?

Dear Zoidar: Even goats are His. In the final analysis, every last being in the heavens, the earth and the underworld, bow before Him in antiphonal worship! This worship is IN/EN the Name of all names & absolutely not perfunctory genuflections.

From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends..

He is the ta panta!
 
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Dave L

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This verse destroys limited atonement:

But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you also, who will stealthily introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master having bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Pet.2:1)

Bryson says even Calvin’s commentary admits:

“It is no small matter to have the souls perish who were bought by the blood of Christ”

(The Dark Side of Calvinism, p.162).

https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Side-Calvinism-Calvinist-CALVINISM/dp/1931667888
"also denying the master who bought them". This verse does not refute limited atonement, but shows the similarities of the false teachers to those of old who "denied the Lord who bought them" from the house of bondage in Egypt.

“Fear and dread will fall on them; by the greatness of your arm they will be as still as stone until your people pass by, O LORD, until the people whom you have bought pass by.” (Exodus 15:16)

Obviously Christ did not atone for these.
 
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FineLinen

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"also denying the master who bought them". This verse does not refute limited atonement, but shows the similarities of the false teachers to those of old who "denied the Lord who bought them" from the house of bondage in Egypt.

“Fear and dread will fall on them; by the greatness of your arm they will be as still as stone until your people pass by, O LORD, until the people whom you have bought pass by.” (Exodus 15:16)

Obviously Christ did not atone for these.

Dear Dave: Obviously the Lord of Glory atones for every last rotten sinner in every degree of sin!

"He is [the] propitiation for our sins

AND NOT FOR OUR SINS ONLY

but for the sins of the whole world."

My friend, the Lord Jesus Christ is the hilasmos of the holos!
 
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dqhall

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Dear Zoidar: Even goats are His. In the final analysis, every last being in the heavens, the earth and the underworld, bow before Him in antiphonal worship! This worship is IN/EN the Name of all names & absolutely not perfunctory genuflections.

From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends..

He is the ta panta!
In the parable of the fishermen (Matt. 13:47-52), the men pulled a net on to shore and sorted their catch. They only kept the good fish. The Jews were not allowed to eat catfish as they did not have scales (Lev. 11:9). There are catfish in the Sea of Galilee (Yam Kinneret). The Kinneret sardine, tilapia and barbel were sought by the fishermen of Galilee.

There will be a reward for those who do good. Is this limited atonement?
Mark 9:41 (WEB) "For whoever will give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because you are Christ's, most certainly I tell you, he will in no way lose his reward."
 
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Dave L

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Dear Dave: Obviously the Lord of Glory atones for every last rotten sinner in every degree of sin!

"He is [the] propitiation for our sins

AND NOT FOR OUR SINS ONLY

but for the sins of the whole world."

My friend, the Lord Jesus Christ is the hilasmos of the holos!
The following passage shows that Jesus did not die for the Pharisees. And this is why they rejected Christ.

Jesus said “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.” John 10:11 (ESV)

“just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.” John 10:15 (ESV)

But then he tells the Pharisees “but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. John 10:26

Notice the Pharisees did not believe because they were not among Jesus’ sheep. And Jesus did not die for them.

Jesus said “My sheep hear my voice, [the gospel] and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” John 10:27–28 (ESV)

So again, for whom did Christ die? Jesus said “the good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.” John 10:11 (ESV)

The Pharisees did not believe in Jesus? Why? Jesus told them; “but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep” John 10:26

Could the Pharisees become sheep had they chose to believe in Jesus? No, Jesus said the reason is, they must be sheep before they can believe. “but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep” John 10:26

Jesus said they would accept him if they were his sheep. “My sheep hear my voice, [the gospel] and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” John 10:26–28 (ESV)

Why do so many reject Christ? Because he did not die for them. Why do some accept Christ? Because he died for them.

In his High Priestly Prayer, Jesus did not pray for the salvation of all. He told the Father “I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.” John 17:9 (ESV). Why would Jesus die for any he was unwilling to pray for?

Since Christ died for the elect only, we must temper all other passages according to this. When Peter says God is not willing any should perish, it is obvious God willed the Pharisees damnation. Had they been Christ’s sheep they all would have believed and remained Israel under Christ. So Peter does not say God is not willing that unbelievers perish. But instead Peter says; “The Lord is not slow in regard to the promise [made to Abraham], as certain count slowness, but is long-suffering to us, not counselling any to be lost but all to pass on to reformation,” 2 Peter 3:9 (Young’s Literal Greek Translation YLT)

When it says Jesus is the Savior of the World, the believing Jews knew the promise made to Abraham about the gentiles one day flowing into Jerusalem above had come to pass. Before this time salvation was only for the Jews (John 4:21–22)
 
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Dave L

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In the parable of the fishermen (Matt. 13:47-52), the men pulled a net on to shore and sorted their catch. They only kept the good fish. The Jews were not allowed to eat catfish as they did not have scales (Lev. 11:9). There are catfish in the Sea of Galilee (Yam Kinneret). The Kinneret sardine, tilapia and barbel were sought by the fishermen of Galilee.

There will be a reward for those who do good. Is this limited atonement?
Mark 9:41 (WEB) "For whoever will give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because you are Christ's, most certainly I tell you, he will in no way lose his reward."
Only those for whom Christ died are born again and do good things for the right reasons.
 
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FineLinen

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Dear Dave: You must be right. Jesus Christ died for our sins only, and as such cannot be the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

Do you know the scope of those who were "made sinners" in Romans 5? The same mass (the polus) made sinners are the polus "made righteous" in the Last Adam!
 
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FineLinen

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Dave L

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Dear Dave: You must be right. Jesus Christ died for our sins only, and as such cannot be the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

Do you know the scope of those who were "made sinners" in Romans 5? The same mass (the polus) made sinners are the polus "made righteous" in the Last Adam!
B.B. Warfield said something I think holds true. That "God saved as many in his mercy as his righteousness would allow." (loosely quoted from memory).

God is revealed against the backdrop of sin. We see his mercy, grace, love, etc., in salvation. But we also see his goodness, justice and righteousness in the punishment of sinners. So in view of displaying his glory, I think what Warfield said holds true.
 
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FineLinen

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B.B. Warfield said something I think holds true. That "God saved as many in his mercy as his righteousness would allow." (loosely quoted from memory).

God is revealed against the backdrop of sin. We see his mercy, grace, love, etc., in salvation. But we also see his goodness, justice and righteousness in the punishment of sinners. So in view of displaying his glory, I think what Warfield said holds true.

Dear Dave: B.B. must not be aware of the scope of polus! I will state it again: the polus "made sinners" in Adam1 are the same polus "made righteous" in the Last Adam, every last one!
 
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Dave L

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Dear Dave: B.B. must not be aware of the scope of polus! I will state it again: the polus "made sinners" in Adam1 are the same polus "made righteous" in the Last Adam, every last one!
This is fine but Paul limits each "polus" to those in Adam and those in Christ.
 
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redleghunter

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Is there anywhere in the Bible where it says that a person can't become Jesus sheep?
Good question. That would be in the category where this question would be asked as well:

Is there anywhere in the Bible where it says God's atonement is applied to rebellious unrepentant unbelievers?

Which circles back to the ultimate question: How does one 'appropriate' the Finished Word of Jesus Christ?

Ephesians 2 is a good start.
 
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FineLinen

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This is fine but Paul limits each "polus" to those in Adam and those in Christ.

Dear Dave: There are two Adams in the equation, the first & the Last. The equation is equal on both sides, the identical polus "made sinners" in the first is the polus "made righteous" in the Last. That is the limit, & St. Paul indeed "limited" the entire equation to the two. Of course the "all the more" in the Last exceeds anything in the first! Much, much more.

How much more?
 
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Dave L

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Dear Dave: There are two Adams in the equation, the first & the Last. The equation is equal on both sides, the identical polus "made sinners" in the first is the polus "made righteous" in the Last. That is the limit, & St. Paul indeed "limited" the entire equation to the two. Of course the "all the more" in the Last exceeds anything in the first! Much, much more.

How much more?
Only God knows......
 
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FineLinen

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Only God knows......

Dear Dave: Indeed He does! F.L. is beginning to understand a small tidbit (with a small s) of what He knows. The tidbits are in the overwhelming dimension of exceedingly abundantly above all I can ask or even think.

Bless you and yours again today Dave. May He bless your socks off!
 
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Pneuma3

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Good question. That would be in the category where this question would be asked as well:

Is there anywhere in the Bible where it says God's atonement is applied to rebellious unrepentant unbelievers?

Which circles back to the ultimate question: How does one 'appropriate' the Finished Word of Jesus Christ?

Ephesians 2 is a good start.

Why yes there is

He is not only the propitiation, atonement, mercy seat (covering) redemption for our sins but for the sins of the whole world.

This pretty much blow Calvinism, ECT and annihilation right out of the water.
 
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BobRyan

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This verse destroys limited atonement:

But there were also false prophets among the people, as there will be false teachers among you also, who will stealthily introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master having bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. (2 Pet.2:1)

Bryson says even Calvin’s commentary admits:

“It is no small matter to have the souls perish who were bought by the blood of Christ”

(The Dark Side of Calvinism, p.162).

https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Side-Calvinism-Calvinist-CALVINISM/dp/1931667888

1 John 2:2 2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

1 John 4: 14 "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world"
 
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Pneuma3

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1 John 4: 14 "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world"

Hi Bob, just wanted to point out that the words "to be" are not in the original language but are put in there by the translator, supposedly to make the meaning clearer (ya right)

Anyway that scripture actually reads

"And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son the Savior of the world.

It is a statement of FACT to that which the Father proposed in Jesus Christ.

He IS the saviour of the world, not the potential saviour of the world.
 
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redleghunter

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Why yes there is

He is not only the propitiation, atonement, mercy seat (covering) redemption for our sins but for the sins of the whole world.

This pretty much blow Calvinism, ECT and annihilation right out of the water.
Therefore, based on unlimited atonement everyone is saved, even unrepentant rebellious unbelievers. I think this is what Universalists agree to but we know no one who is not of the Covenant in Christ's blood will be saved. So how can an unbeliever who has rejected Christ appropriate the Blood of the New Covenant?

Maybe you can explain how even Christians become Christians by appropriating the Blood of Christ in the New Covenant?
 
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