Liberal Christians

[FireDragon76]

So you are saying that Liberal Christians do not allegorize Scriptures that Conservative Christians normally read literally?

Occasionally, liberal Christians take Scriptures literally that conservatives allegorize.

 

[majj27]

finally, someone reasonable. wahoo!

That's weird, I didn't find any of the posts so far to be unreasonable.

 

[Albion]

im a hardcore conservative Christian. I have always thought that conservative views go hand and hang with Christianity. Morals. Values. Standards. These are things I thought Christians should stand up for.

I can understand how some economic views such as capitalism and like healthcare can be controversial for anyone (including Christians) but issues such as abortion, gay rights, transgenderism, islam, - aren't these topics that all Christian's should be consistent with opposing? I mean, the Bible does support opposing it... so if Christians support scripture, why are some Christians liberal??? like shouldn't Christians be conservative?

I know a couple people who claim they are Christian but also have very liberal ideas. for example, this girl i met recently is basically a hardcore feminist, anti-trump, it seems her idealogy cannot support Christian values. This is just one example, I know so many Christians that are liberal. and i just dont understand

thoughts?

I dont wanna start a debate here, i am just genuinely concerned for the way our society is moving - LIBERAL.

Thoughts? Yes, you're right. Liberalism today is essentially a less strident form of Marxism, being committed to the destruction of all traditional values. Liberals will deny it, of course, and point to concepts of equality and diversity, etc., but these are only talking points and are never actually adhered to by Liberals.

 

[AlexDTX]

im a hardcore conservative Christian. I have always thought that conservative views go hand and hang with Christianity. Morals. Values. Standards. These are things I thought Christians should stand up for.

I can understand how some economic views such as capitalism and like healthcare can be controversial for anyone (including Christians) but issues such as abortion, gay rights, transgenderism, islam, - aren't these topics that all Christian's should be consistent with opposing? I mean, the Bible does support opposing it... so if Christians support scripture, why are some Christians liberal??? like shouldn't Christians be conservative?

I know a couple people who claim they are Christian but also have very liberal ideas. for example, this girl i met recently is basically a hardcore feminist, anti-trump, it seems her idealogy cannot support Christian values. This is just one example, I know so many Christians that are liberal. and i just dont understand

thoughts?

I dont wanna start a debate here, i am just genuinely concerned for the way our society is moving - LIBERAL.

I am conservative, but I am not a Conservative. The problem is that political views are being intertwined with our faith. They are not the same thing, and many Christians that are political conservatives see them as the same thing. Our faith is not to be defined by politics or even economics.

As children of God we are co-heirs with Christ and citizens of His Kingdom. While on the Earth we are called to be pilgrims and strangers as ambassadors of Christ. Just as we can not serve God and mammon, neither can we serve two kingdoms. In both cases we can not serve two masters. Ambassadors represent their own country and have diplomatic immunity. However, while ambassadors are guests in another country, they still obey the laws of that land which do not conflict with the laws of their own Kingdom.

We are to pray for the leaders of the country we sojourn within so that peace will enable the Gospel to go forth. Our mission in this foreign land is to share the Gospel. No nation is transformed by politics. They are transformed by hearts being transformed.

Wilbur Wilberforce is an example. He was an English Parliamentarian who single-handedly abolished slavery in England long before the American Civil War. He did so by living a godly life in front of his fellow politicians and shared the Gospel with them. As the hearts of the leaders changed, that example also changed the hearts of the people towards slavery so that the legislation could be passed that forbid slavery in the UK. There was no bloodshed or war.

In the American arena today, few men who start out godly that enter politics, remain so once they enter the Beltway. Ron Paul was a huge exception. The rest become corrupted by DC money and perversions. Change in a nation comes by the way of Daniel, not Samson.

Regarding the issues you gave as examples. Yes they are evil perversions. But hearts are not changed by telling them how evil they are, but by incarnating Christ and speaking the truth in love. Despite what Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron say, everyone already knows they are evil... not consciously, but in their hearts. Calling people evil only increases condemnation and resistance to the Gospel.

Too many evangelists try to convince minds, but do not understand how to change hearts. Arguing doctrine is a game as clearly seen in this forum. Look how many enjoy debating and crushing opposing arguments. But that does not change hearts. It only increases defiance and resistance, which builds into anger and hatred.

I am neither a Conservative nor a Liberal... I am a Christian whose home is not here.

 

[majj27]

Thoughts? Yes, you're right. Liberalism today is essentially a less strident form of Marxism, being committed to the destruction of all traditional values. Liberals will deny it, of course, and point to concepts of equality and diversity, etc., but these are only talking points and are never actually adhered to by Liberals.

Hmmm... overly broad brushes, talking points that could have been cribbed straight from Alex Jones, categorizing those who disagree as The Enemy Who Wishes Our Destruction... Oh yes, THIS will end well.

 

[Vicomte13]

im a hardcore conservative Christian. I have always thought that conservative views go hand and hang with Christianity. Morals. Values. Standards. These are things I thought Christians should stand up for.

I can understand how some economic views such as capitalism and like healthcare can be controversial for anyone (including Christians) but issues such as abortion, gay rights, transgenderism, islam, - aren't these topics that all Christian's should be consistent with opposing? I mean, the Bible does support opposing it... so if Christians support scripture, why are some Christians liberal??? like shouldn't Christians be conservative?

I know a couple people who claim they are Christian but also have very liberal ideas. for example, this girl i met recently is basically a hardcore feminist, anti-trump, it seems her idealogy cannot support Christian values. This is just one example, I know so many Christians that are liberal. and i just dont understand

thoughts?

I dont wanna start a debate here, i am just genuinely concerned for the way our society is moving - LIBERAL.

Here's the problem, in a nutshell: the politics that would most closely align with Christ would be these:

Feed the poor = support welfare
Heal the sick = support universal medical care, free for those who cannot pay.
Provide for the widow and orphan = Social Security and disability and welfare benefits.
Defend the innocent, turn the other cheek, forgive and redeem = oppose the death penalty
Do not kill = oppose war
Do not kill = oppose abortion (and provide welfare for the poor babies who were not aborted, and their mothers, and fathers also if unable to care for them).
Forgive debt = forgive debt.
Marriage is a sacred bond = no divorce, except for adultery; no remarriage after divorce.
Eschew sexual immorality, and lead away from temptation = no inappropriate content, no regularization of fornication, no "gay" marriage, no public celebration or recognition of homosexuality at all: it is shameful and there is nothing to be proud of (but don't legally punish it).
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you = no slavery, control prisons so they are not violent places for inmates.

Neither political party is anything like that.

American "liberals" do not want any sort of legal or social restrictions on sexuality.
American "conservatives" categorically oppose welfare.
Americans do not want to give up foreign empire and the war that inevitable comes from having one.
Americans do not want to give up on harsh criminal laws, long imprisonment under bitter conditions. Americans do not want to turn the other cheek, or forgive, or do unto others (kindly) if they hate the others.
Americans do want to judge.

Essentially, Americans, conservatives and liberals, want to be Americans, not followers of Christ, but they want to be followers of Christ also. They want to have their cake and eat it to.

So what that means is that Americans support about 33% of Christ's message, and oppose the other 66%, and yell at the other kind of Christian American for the parts that each doesn't like.

Truth is, to have a political system that fit Christ's commandments, you would have to have a Swedish social welfare state, with Latin American abortion and gay marriage laws, and the marriage laws of the Catholic Church.

Every American finds aspects of Christ's law eminently hateable and unacceptable, but very, very, very few Christian Americans will ever admit that. Instead, they'll judge what the other guy is doing wrong, but make exceptions and allowances for the parts of Christ's message they don't like.

Most Americans hate Jesus' law of divorce and remarriage, which is that you can't divorce except for the other partners adultery, and you can't remarry at all. And you can't have sex outside of marriage.

Conservatives correctly despise homosexual behavior and treat gay marriage as a mockery and a travesty. But they don't even hear Jesus when he says that heterosexual remarriage after divorce is all adultery. They hate Jesus when it comes to that, because it means that Jesus commands you to stay married, and if you divorce, to be celibate for the rest of your ex-spouse's life.

American Christians support the third of Christ's message they like, and oppose the other 2/3rds, and become very angry when you point it out to them.

 

[catsandcoffee]

Romans 1:32
"Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

 

[Albion]

Hmmm... overly broad brushes, talking points that could have been cribbed straight from Alex Jones, categorizing those who disagree as The Enemy Who Wishes Our Destruction... Oh yes, THIS will end well.

I've never watched or listened to an Alex Jones show, so I cannot comment on that. And I certainly do agree that the political spectrum is very broad with many increments on that spectrum. There surely are individuals who consider themselves to be Liberal because they favor rather mild social reforms.

What I was addressing, however, was the movement itself, its movers and shakers, its leadership and that leadership's intentions and policies. As you saw in several of the posts preceding this one, conservatives and Conservatism were treated as monolithic, so if that's to be the tone of this thread, my comments about Liberalism are entirely appropriate.

 

[CitizenD]

I know a couple people who claim they are Christian but also have very liberal ideas. for example, this girl i met recently is basically a hardcore feminist, anti-trump, it seems her idealogy cannot support Christian values.

Being feminist and anti-trump is anti-Christian values?

I don't really understand this connection you (appear to be) are drawing at all.

Trump is a terrible human being. His moral character is atrocious by Christian standards. He attacks and divides. He accuses and mocks. He brags. He dissembles and lies constantly. He isn't very intelligent. He shows little sign that he comprehends the details or indeed, any of the issues he supposedly represents. He appears surprised to learn how complicated politics is. None of that is Christian to me. None of that shouts, "Gee, if you're against Trump you must not support Christian values." Quite the opposite! I cannot fathom how a self-respecting Christian would align themselves with that monstrosity.

Then there's feminism. I don't want to get to far into this one, but how is feminism anti-Christian?

 

[iwbswiaihl2]

I am conservative, but I am not a Conservative. The problem is that political views are being intertwined with our faith. They are not the same thing, and many Christians that are political conservatives see them as the same thing. Our faith is not to be defined by politics or even economics.

As children of God we are co-heirs with Christ and citizens of His Kingdom. While on the Earth we are called to be pilgrims and strangers as ambassadors of Christ. Just as we can not serve God and mammon, neither can we serve two kingdoms. In both cases we can not serve two masters. Ambassadors represent their own country and have diplomatic immunity. However, while ambassadors are guests in another country, they still obey the laws of that land which do not conflict with the laws of their own Kingdom.

We are to pray for the leaders of the country we sojourn within so that peace will enable the Gospel to go forth. Our mission in this foreign land is to share the Gospel. No nation is transformed by politics. They are transformed by hearts being transformed.

Wilbur Wilberforce is an example. He was an English Parliamentarian who single-handedly abolished slavery in England long before the American Civil War. He did so by living a godly life in front of his fellow politicians and shared the Gospel with them. As the hearts of the leaders changed, that example also changed the hearts of the people towards slavery so that the legislation could be passed that forbid slavery in the UK. There was no bloodshed or war.

In the American arena today, few men who start out godly that enter politics, remain so once they enter the Beltway. Ron Paul was a huge exception. The rest become corrupted by DC money and perversions. Change in a nation comes by the way of Daniel, not Samson.

Regarding the issues you gave as examples. Yes they are evil perversions. But hearts are not changed by telling them how evil they are, but by incarnating Christ and speaking the truth in love. Despite what Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron say, everyone already knows they are evil... not consciously, but in their hearts. Calling people evil only increases condemnation and resistance to the Gospel.

Too many evangelists try to convince minds, but do not understand how to change hearts. Arguing doctrine is a game as clearly seen in this forum. Look how many enjoy debating and crushing opposing arguments. But that does not change hearts. It only increases defiance and resistance, which builds into anger and hatred.

I am neither a Conservative nor a Liberal... I am a Christian whose home is not here.

Seems to me that Jesus did not follow that example of not telling others that they were hypocrites as in Luke 11:44 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like graves which are not seen, and the men who walk over them are not aware of them.” Luke 13:1-5 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.” And of course we are not to be on the war path so to speak, but we are not to sugar coat the gospel, the wages of sin is death. The gospel confronts all who love sin and the world and except one repents and comes to faith in Jesus Christ they perish may seem cruel to some, but the truth believed is what set one free. So it boils not to perspective and each of us are accountable only for our own actions, let's just prayed they are in accordance with the word of God. Have a great day.

And in some post it is easy to see why division exit, especially if one is accusing others, people jump on Trump and how awful he is and a lot of it is true, but they overlooked Obama and Clinton for 8 years without a whimper of fault. They say how conservatives ignore scripture while supporting praying to Mary and other special saints and baptizing baby and Jesus not having half brothers and sisters and say how scriptural they are, not to mention same sex marriage and each person can decide what sexual preference they can be today, who would have every thought that would be an issue? This topic is a good one for showing each of us to example our walk that it follows the scripture.

 

[Tom 1]

Here's the problem, in a nutshell: the politics that would most closely align with Christ would be these:

Feed the poor = support welfare
Heal the sick = support universal medical care, free for those who cannot pay.
Provide for the widow and orphan = Social Security and disability and welfare benefits.
Defend the innocent, turn the other cheek, forgive and redeem = oppose the death penalty
Do not kill = oppose war
Do not kill = oppose abortion (and provide welfare for the poor babies who were not aborted, and their mothers, and fathers also if unable to care for them).
Forgive debt = forgive debt.
Marriage is a sacred bond = no divorce, except for adultery; no remarriage after divorce.
Eschew sexual immorality, and lead away from temptation = no inappropriate content, no regularization of fornication, no "gay" marriage, no public celebration or recognition of homosexuality at all: it is shameful and there is nothing to be proud of (but don't legally punish it).
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you = no slavery, control prisons so they are not violent places for inmates.

Neither political party is anything like that.

American "liberals" do not want any sort of legal or social restrictions on sexuality.
American "conservatives" categorically oppose welfare.
Americans do not want to give up foreign empire and the war that inevitable comes from having one.
Americans do not want to give up on harsh criminal laws, long imprisonment under bitter conditions. Americans do not want to turn the other cheek, or forgive, or do unto others (kindly) if they hate the others.
Americans do want to judge.

Essentially, Americans, conservatives and liberals, want to be Americans, not followers of Christ, but they want to be followers of Christ also. They want to have their cake and eat it to.

So what that means is that Americans support about 33% of Christ's message, and oppose the other 66%, and yell at the other kind of Christian American for the parts that each doesn't like.

Truth is, to have a political system that fit Christ's commandments, you would have to have a Swedish social welfare state, with Latin American abortion and gay marriage laws, and the marriage laws of the Catholic Church.

Every American finds aspects of Christ's law eminently hateable and unacceptable, but very, very, very few Christian Americans will ever admit that. Instead, they'll judge what the other guy is doing wrong, but make exceptions and allowances for the parts of Christ's message they don't like.

Most Americans hate Jesus' law of divorce and remarriage, which is that you can't divorce except for the other partners adultery, and you can't remarry at all. And you can't have sex outside of marriage.

Conservatives correctly despise homosexual behavior and treat gay marriage as a mockery and a travesty. But they don't even hear Jesus when he says that heterosexual remarriage after divorce is all adultery. They hate Jesus when it comes to that, because it means that Jesus commands you to stay married, and if you divorce, to be celibate for the rest of your ex-spouse's life.

American Christians support the third of Christ's message they like, and oppose the other 2/3rds, and become very angry when you point it out to them.

Well put. Same in most of the countries I’ve lived in, albeit in different ways.

 

[Albion]

Being feminist and anti-trump is anti-Christian values?

Hatred certainly is. And it would be a good idea to respond to what was actually written in the OP rather than recasting it so that it can more easily be condemned.

 

[Albion]

Well put. Same in most the countries I’ve lived in, albeit in different ways.

Unfortunately, the post you're reacting to was about conservative or liberal political policies and assumed that a religious L or C would have to vote a certain way in order to be true to Jesus' teachings, which isn't true at all. Jesus was not a politician but instead called people to be upright in their own lives.

 

[Tom 1]

Hatred certainly is. And it would be a good idea to respond to what was actually written in the OP rather than recasting it so that it can more easily be condemned.

Isn’t one of the points in the OP that feminism and being anti Trump is somehow antithetical to Christian values? I think citizen D was responding to that, as it’s part of the content of the OP, not a recast of it

 

[Albion]

Isn’t one of the points in the OP that feminism and being anti Trump is somehow antithetical to Christian values?

That's not what she said.

As I noted before, we ought to address what she actually wrote rather than edit it to suit our own views before replying.

 

[Tom 1]

Unfortunately, the post you're reacting to was about conservative or liberal political policies and assumed that a religious L or C would have to vote a certain way in order to be true to Jesus' teachings, which isn't true at all. Jesus was not a politician but instead called people to be upright in their own lives.

No, what I was responding to was the poster’s point that people on different sides of the Christian conservative/liberal divide pick and choose those elements of the gospel they like and support. I’ve found that to be generally true also.

 

[Tom 1]

That's not what she said.

As I noted before, we ought to address what she actually wrote rather than edit it to suit our own views before replying.

I know a couple people who claim they are Christian but also have very liberal ideas. for example, this girl i met recently is basically a hardcore feminist, anti-trump, it seems her idealogy cannot support Christian values.

 

[LizaMarie]

im a hardcore conservative Christian. I have always thought that conservative views go hand and hang with Christianity. Morals. Values. Standards. These are things I thought Christians should stand up for.

I can understand how some economic views such as capitalism and like healthcare can be controversial for anyone (including Christians) but issues such as abortion, gay rights, transgenderism, islam, - aren't these topics that all Christian's should be consistent with opposing? I mean, the Bible does support opposing it... so if Christians support scripture, why are some Christians liberal??? like shouldn't Christians be conservative?

I know a couple people who claim they are Christian but also have very liberal ideas. for example, this girl i met recently is basically a hardcore feminist, anti-trump, it seems her idealogy cannot support Christian values. This is just one example, I know so many Christians that are liberal. and i just dont understand

thoughts?

I dont wanna start a debate here, i am just genuinely concerned for the way our society is moving - LIBERAL.

I share your concern. Many of my liberal Christian friends are in complete agreement with the secular liberal agenda and I am old enough to remember when the Democratic party(here in the US) was all about the blue collar worker and the little guy. That's why so many Roman Catholics and mainline Protestants were traditionally Democratic. Now it's all about identity politics, abortion and same sex marriage and so on, and cheering on the breakdown of the traditional family, and recreational sex.
Even some of my liberal Christian friends have no problem with living together before marriage, ect.
It's concerning. And they support abortion,as a "womans right to choose" as well. Don't understand it.

 

[Winken]

why should we be against islam but not against judaism, hinduism, buddhism etc?

We are Christians. We are "for" Christianity. None other.

 

[CitizenD]

Hatred certainly is. And it would be a good idea to respond to what was actually written in the OP rather than recasting it so that it can more easily be condemned.

Being anti-Trump is hatred?

Brother, those points about Trump are observations. They are not opinion. They *are not* emotion. Though, I admit they lead to some.

Trump divides. He attacks. He lies daily. He mocks. He brags. He doesn't comprehend.

Those are *facts*. There is no hatred in pointing that out.