Let's talk about separate bathrooms

[TLK Valentine]

There is way too much fixation on other people's genitals and bodily functions than can be considered good for mental health.

I say when you gotta go, you gotta go...

 

[cow451]

If the following conditions are met then I don't care who I have to share the facilities with:

• Scrupulously and regularly cleaned
• Sufficient stalls to handle all reasonably anticipated demand
• Always fully supplied with appropriate consumables
• Emergency buttons in each stall to summon help in the case of medical or security issues
• High power air dryers and paper towels
• An attendant and anything by Bach piped over the audio system would be nice.

Until the day that the above becomes possible and even routine I won't really like sharing facilities with anyone, regardless of their actual, or perceived gender, or sex.

I guess that rules out use of the ones at Bubba's Truck Stop and BBQ.

 

[Ophiolite]

I guess that rules out use of the ones at Bubba's Truck Stop and BBQ.

I suppose they play Hank Williams rather than one of the Brandenburgs. So near and yet so far.

 

[Belk]

"Things change" or "stuff happens" , which is what the term "progress" amounts to in the context of your post , is not really a reason why something should change. I bet you could give a rational reason why one would need an ADA ramp. Why do you not give a rational reason why it is better on the whole to not have ladies' and men's rooms in the traditional sense? After all, if one doesn't know why something should be changed then one may end up changing it for the worse rather than for the better.

I used the word progress for a specific reason. It is not change for change sake but change in order to improve someones life. The specific reasons transgender wish to use the restroom they identify with is safety.

 

[mmksparbud]

So, a child-aged guy could be groomed to decide he's a girl, and so there would be the bathroom change.

But then in the girls' room a transgendered person might discover with age an interest in . . . females . . . and feel this is a same-sex attraction. And so it might seem reasonable to identify as a male-role lesbian, and therefore switch to identifying as, yes, a "he", and then switch to male bathrooms. (Or, might the young one find it expedient to keep the newly discovered interest quiet and keep on using girls' rooms??)

In any case, then there would be the interesting issue of if the person still has an Adam's apple and functional reproductive organs so the person could function in marriage with a woman and have children.

Or, was the person sterilized? I thought we aren't supposed to sterilize people.

I've never heard of anyone deciding their gender by going to the bathroom!! I' e never seen the genitals of anyone at any bathroom ! This whole scenario is just plain gross and unrealistic!!

 

[Tanj]

I' e never seen the genitals of anyone at any bathroom !

I wish I could say the same. In the men's bathroom, it's accepted practice.

 

[Tanj]

So, a child-aged guy could be groomed to decide he's a girl, and so there would be the bathroom change.

But then in the girls' room a transgendered person might discover with age an interest in . . . females . . . and feel this is a same-sex attraction. And so it might seem reasonable to identify as a male-role lesbian, and therefore switch to identifying as, yes, a "he", and then switch to male bathrooms. (Or, might the young one find it expedient to keep the newly discovered interest quiet and keep on using girls' rooms??)

In any case, then there would be the interesting issue of if the person still has an Adam's apple and functional reproductive organs so the person could function in marriage with a woman and have children.

Or, was the person sterilized? I thought we aren't supposed to sterilize people.

What? How is the reproductive status of organs relevant to the conversation? I have an adam's apple but due to medical issues no functional reproductive organs. Where do I fit in the dark labyrinthian world of your post? And what does bathroom usage have to do with "grooming"?

 

[Hazelelponi]

I've never heard of anyone deciding their gender by going to the bathroom!! I' e never seen the genitals of anyone at any bathroom ! This whole scenario is just plain gross and unrealistic!!

most of us never heard of someone deciding their gender based on the flip of a coin either (sarcastic extreme for a point) until recently instead of examining what bits you have and saying oh.. I'm a girl then. It's generally learned fairly young, before we know what all the bits are for - or what they may or may not become.

 

[Hazelelponi]

People, women especially, just want to feel safe in bathrooms.

A 70 year old man assisting his elderly disabled wife - or even a younger man assisting his disabled wife does not give a woman the feeling of being unsafe.

Same with a young father changing a diaper or being there for the safety of his young daughter.

I have felt safe in a public restroom - and unsafe. I will leave any restroom - or not enter it to begin with - in a public bathroom I feel somehow unsafe in.

Most women were pretty settled in where they felt most safe or most unsafe in their locality, and skip attendance whenever humanly possible where they may have felt unsafe.

The problem all this is bringing up, is that, that settledness is being upended for what amounts to no good reason. Places of employment, shopping etc. It's leaving many women feeling vulnerable.

Are they going to be accosted by the work pervert in the bathroom at work? Who knows.. in the bathroom it's your word against his if he tries anything.

And the list goes on. This is why some are over reacting, and others are just scared.

Me? I'm just scared... I'm of an age I actually have no choice but to use public restrooms while I'm out more often, and I'm now worried about where I may safely use the restroom after all these various businesses change policy without change to bathroom structure.

 

[Bradskii]

So, a child-aged guy could be groomed to decide he's a girl...

I stopped reading after this.

 

[Oompa Loompa]

Can someone give us all of your reasons why we can't have men's rooms and ladies' rooms the way we've always had them.

I'm asking this here because another thread was about to get hijacked over it. Not intentionally, but hijacked nonetheless.

Short answer is because we now live in a clown world.

 

[Sodafox]

As long as there are stalls I don't really care who is in the bathroom with me. I can see the men's room being more of a problem because of urinals but that's why I'll never use the men's room even if the line for the women's is really long.

As for protection in the women's room, why not put a camera in the sink area to watch for anyone peeking under stalls?

If there's no or few stalls, like a gym or pool locker room, then I think the sexes need to be separated. Born male but afraid to change in the men's room? Come already in your outfit then, sorry. I don't think it's worth the risk of having a pervert checking out or assaulting changing women just because a small minority don't feel safe using their own room to change.

 

[Ophiolite]

I stopped reading after this.

If only I had your sense of anticipation. I do so wish I had stopped.

 

[grasping the after wind]

• Inefficient use of space.
  
• Adherence to a habit formed in the relatively recent past and yet not adhered to in all circumstances for most (all) of that time. So, really we need a reason to continue doing, not a reason to change.

One always should have a reason to change. You gave one. Inefficient use of space. I am not sure that having two restrooms accommodating two different styles of urination is really an inefficient use of space but at least you have a reason to change that you believe is valid. That is better than none.

 

[grasping the after wind]

I used the word progress for a specific reason. It is not change for change sake but change in order to improve someones life. The specific reasons transgender wish to use the restroom they identify with is safety.

Progress doesn't mean change in order to improve someone's life in my mind. Too many changes for the worst have been deemed progress over the past two or so centuries. If you define progress as a change to accommodate one group of people at the expense of another group then I agree that your definition fits the situation. I still argue that progress is nothing more than change from one thing to the next. I don't place a value judgement on change. I like change when the change is overall more positive than negative I do not like change for change's sake or change that is more negative than positive.
I do not see that doing away with the two bathroom system would make the world better. I do not know that it would make it worse either.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Progress doesn't mean change in order to improve someone's life in my mind. Too many changes for the worst have been deemed progress over the past two or so centuries. If you define progress as a change to accommodate one group of people at the expense of another group then I agree that your definition fits the situation.

I would split the difference and say that progress is change with the intention of improving someone's life... but of course, things don't always go as planned, do they?

 

[Belk]

Progress doesn't mean change in order to improve someone's life in my mind. Too many changes for the worst have been deemed progress over the past two or so centuries. If you define progress as a change to accommodate one group of people at the expense of another group then I agree that your definition fits the situation. I still argue that progress is nothing more than change from one thing to the next. I don't place a value judgement on change. I like change when the change is overall more positive than negative I do not like change for change's sake or change that is more negative than positive.
I do not see that doing away with the two bathroom system would make the world better. I do not know that it would make it worse either.

Fair enough. I see this as a step forward forward in equality for transgendered people.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

Can someone give us all of your reasons why we can't have men's rooms and ladies' rooms the way we've always had them.

I'm asking this here because another thread was about to get hijacked over it. Not intentionally, but hijacked nonetheless.

99% of the stores I go into still have a men's and women's restroom... I don't think that's the crux of the argument.

I think argument is over whether or not transgender people can use the facilities they more closely identify with, correct?


Many conservatives have made this their "hill to die on" so-to-speak.

I don't think they've thought through the alternative.

Here's the example I've provided before.

This is a transgender man (born female, but then transitioned) named Shawn Stinson.

Based on the law that they want, Shawn has to the use the facilities associated to the sex they were at birth (female)

The same people who are angry at idea Shawn going into the men's room to urinate, would be the exact same people who would promptly call the cops if they saw Shawn walk into the women's bathroom while their wife or daughter were in there...guaranteed.


...and I guess, based on the rules they claim they want, it looks like the recently crowned Miss Nevada (transgender woman) is going to be showering with their sons at the local rec center.

...something tells me they'd have a problem with that too...just a hunch.

So, if we're keeping score.
They'd be mad if a trans woman used the women's facilities
They'd be mad if a trans woman used the men's facilities
They don't want gender neutral facilities

Not leaving a whole lot of options for people here are they...

 

[Ken-1122]

99% of the stores I go into still have a men's and women's restroom... I don't think that's the crux of the argument.

I think argument is over whether or not transgender people can use the facilities they more closely identify with, correct?


Many conservatives have made this their "hill to die on" so-to-speak.

I don't think they've thought through the alternative.

Here's the example I've provided before.

This is a transgender man (born female, but then transitioned) named Shawn Stinson.
View attachment 301585

Based on the law that they want, Shawn has to the use the facilities associated to the sex they were at birth (female)

The same people who are angry at idea Shawn going into the men's room to urinate, would be the exact same people who would promptly call the cops if they saw Shawn walk into the women's bathroom while their wife or daughter were in there...guaranteed.


...and I guess, based on the rules they claim they want, it looks like the recently crowned Miss Nevada (transgender woman) is going to be showing with their sons at the local rec center.

...something tells me they'd have a problem with that too...just a hunch.

So, if we're keeping score.
They'd be mad if a trans woman used the women's facilities
They'd be mad if a trans woman used the men's facilities
They don't want gender neutral facilities

Not leaving a whole lot of options for people here are they...

If a biological female takes enough steroids and gets enough surgery to look like a male, nobody is gonna say anything if she goes into the men's restroom. However if she goes into a locker room shower situation and did not have genitalia reassignment surgery, then there will be a problem. The best thing to do would probably go to the locker room where they have the same sex organs as you have

 

[Tanj]

If a biological female takes enough steroids and gets enough surgery to look like a male

Who gets to sit on the "you look like a male" committee?