Let's talk about separate bathrooms

ThatRobGuy

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What would they complain about? That the woman has too many muscles, and too much facial hair? That the guy has breast implants? Even if they look like a person of the opposite sex, if they have the same sex organs as everybody else, I don't think a reasonable person would complain.

For starters, I imagine the first and most obvious complaint would be that their sons would see breasts... there seems to be a really big hang-up about that.

We're talking about the same segment of the country that thought that we were on our way to hell in a handbasket because some people saw Janet Jackson's nipple during the halftime show...

A trans-woman in mens/boys shower room at the rec center would likely make their heads explode.
 
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Ana the Ist

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  • Inefficient use of space.
  • Adherence to a habit formed in the relatively recent past and yet not adhered to in all circumstances for most (all) of that time. So, really we need a reason to continue doing, not a reason to change.

Social norms were different then.

If someone touched my child in the restroom, I doubt I'd get more than a slap on the wrist for ending their life a hundred years ago.

200 years ago I could demand that they fight me to the death for such things.

That sort of kept certain people from taking risks they might be inclined to take nowadays.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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I work in midtown Manhattan and I think that the best solution to the bathroom issue is what I've seen here in most restaurants and other nightlife venues. In a small enough place, they will have unisex one-at-a-time bathrooms which have toilet and sink in them. In some very small restaurants you will find they have tiny unisex, one-at-a-time bathrooms that are small so they can fit more of them, like fitting 4 where 2 would be, and then they have one or two sinks OUTSIDE of them. This way people can go to the bathroom at their own pace and then share the sink to wash hands which takes much less time. (Added benefit is people feel shamed into always washing their hands this way, LOL)

In larger venues, like clubs and lounges, they mostly have one big "room" - it's more like an area that is set apart and when you walk in there is no door or wall, you just kind of walk around a corner. Next, you see a wall with a row of sinks and across from that you see row of stalls with toilets in them. The stalls are more enclosed - much like the aforementioned unisex one-at-a-time bathrooms in restaurants and smaller venues, so when you go in you have more privacy than in traditional stalls.

I ended up going to restrooms like this years ago and not even realizing they created a solution for a unisex restroom. in NYC, many places are cramped with limited space so they come up with creative ways to have certain features, and it felt like that's all they were doing. For all I know, that IS all some ir most? all?) of these places were doing, because this goes back YEARS. But I never felt like it was unusual or anything. I don't think any average person would notice or feel anything weird about it.

The only downside is for anyone who would need to sit because the guys would inevitably urinate on the seats.
 
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Mayzoo

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Can someone give us all of your reasons why we can't have men's rooms and ladies' rooms the way we've always had them.

I'm asking this here because another thread was about to get hijacked over it. Not intentionally, but hijacked nonetheless.

We need family restrooms as well, or someone predetermined that a man cannot take his older special need daughter anywhere alone and a woman cannot take her older special need son anywhere alone.
 
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Ken-1122

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For starters, I imagine the first and most obvious complaint would be that their sons would see breasts... there seems to be a really big hang-up about that.

We're talking about the same segment of the country that thought that we were on our way to hell in a handbasket because some people saw Janet Jackson's nipple during the halftime show...

A trans-woman in mens/boys shower room at the rec center would likely make their heads explode.
It is their right to complain, and your right to determine if you care or not.
 
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DaisyDay

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The only downside is for anyone who would need to sit because the guys would inevitably urinate on the seats.
A dismaying number of women also pee on the seats, even in private office buildings.
 
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Nithavela

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Can someone give us all of your reasons why we can't have men's rooms and ladies' rooms the way we've always had them.

I'm asking this here because another thread was about to get hijacked over it. Not intentionally, but hijacked nonetheless.
Define "always".
 
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Nithavela

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2) Cleanliness. Women on average are better than men usually in this department and often more picky.
I've heard different things about women's rest rooms.
 
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hislegacy

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I've been debating on posting on this thread for a while. I don't like to get too personal on a public forum, but I feel the need to share something that has been part of my life for 17 years.

I am the father of a molestation victim. Right off the top I AM NOT CALLING TRANS PEOPLE MOLESTERS. So lets make that abundantly clear at the start.

My child was molested in a public restroom by a person, let's call them John, when they were 7. John was in a stall in the ladies restroom waiting for an opportunity to present itself. That opportunity was my child.

John has never been caught to my knowledge - he disappeared into a crowd and no one saw him.

This issue has had a profound effect on her in the last year or so. She is 24, educated and doing really well in her career. She was in counseling for three years.

We were out to dinner and she and my wife went to the restroom (why do women go in two's I don't know), They almost went into the wrong room when a man came out - my wife was like - oops! wrong room - my daughter almost completely collapsed.

In this debate: Where do my daughters right to feel safe (and thousands like her) come into play? Does the male who identifies as a female, does his rights circumvent my daughters?
 
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hedrick

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In this debate: Where do my daughters right to feel safe (and thousands like her) come into play? Does the male who identifies as a female, does his rights circumvent my daughters?
Do you have reason to think that John was trans?

One lesson from this might be that laws mandating separation by sex wouldn’t have prevented this. 17 years ago I don’t think most areas had laws intended to help trans people, so presumably what he was doing was illegal, whether he was trans or not.
 
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hislegacy

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Do you have reason to think that John was trans?

One lesson from this might be that laws mandating separation by sex wouldn’t have prevented this. 17 years ago I don’t think most areas had laws intended to help trans people, so presumably what he was doing was illegal, whether he was trans or not.

Re-read my post - first the bolded red letters then my question:

In this debate: Where do my daughters right to feel safe (and thousands like her) come into play? Does the male who identifies as a female, does his rights circumvent my daughters?

Can you please address that?

Thank you.
 
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hedrick

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Re-read my post - first the bolded red letters then my question:



Can you please address that?

Thank you.
The problem is that your example had nothing to do with a man identifying as a woman. The best we can do to address your daughters experience is to identify and deal with predators. Banning trans wouldn’t have helped.
 
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TLK Valentine

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I work in midtown Manhattan and I think that the best solution to the bathroom issue is what I've seen here in most restaurants and other nightlife venues. In a small enough place, they will have unisex one-at-a-time bathrooms which have toilet and sink in them. In some very small restaurants you will find they have tiny unisex, one-at-a-time bathrooms that are small so they can fit more of them, like fitting 4 where 2 would be, and then they have one or two sinks OUTSIDE of them. This way people can go to the bathroom at their own pace and then share the sink to wash hands which takes much less time. (Added benefit is people feel shamed into always washing their hands this way, LOL)

In larger venues, like clubs and lounges, they mostly have one big "room" - it's more like an area that is set apart and when you walk in there is no door or wall, you just kind of walk around a corner. Next, you see a wall with a row of sinks and across from that you see row of stalls with toilets in them. The stalls are more enclosed - much like the aforementioned unisex one-at-a-time bathrooms in restaurants and smaller venues, so when you go in you have more privacy than in traditional stalls.

I ended up going to restrooms like this years ago and not even realizing they created a solution for a unisex restroom. in NYC, many places are cramped with limited space so they come up with creative ways to have certain features, and it felt like that's all they were doing. For all I know, that IS all some ir most? all?) of these places were doing, because this goes back YEARS. But I never felt like it was unusual or anything. I don't think any average person would notice or feel anything weird about it.

The only downside is for anyone who would need to sit because the guys would inevitably urinate on the seats.

Or... just emulate CBGB's (in)famous bathroom...

2120738076_8885cb8e11_b.jpg


One look, and you'll seriously want to just hold it in until you get home...
 
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RocksInMyHead

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In this debate: Where do my daughters right to feel safe (and thousands like her) come into play? Does the male who identifies as a female, does his rights circumvent my daughters?
There's two parts to this.

First, the majority of trans individuals only switch restrooms once they start presenting as their preferred gender. They're not really looking to call attention to themselves. So unless your daughter is inspecting the genitals of those in the bathroom with her, it's unlikely that she would even notice their presence. I'd be willing to bet that you're far more likely to encounter a masculine-looking cis woman in a ladies room than you would be to see a masculine-presenting trans woman in one.

Second, the primary reason why transgendered individuals wish to be able to choose their own restrooms is because they don't feel safe using the restroom that corresponds to their genitals. It is far more likely for a female-presenting trans woman to be assaulted (physically or sexually) in a men's room than it is for a cis woman to be assaulted in a ladies room. So your daughter's right to feel safe is competing against the rights of trans individuals to feel safe. It's totally understandable that you're on your daughter's side for this, but objectively, trans people experience greater risk under the current situation than cis women would in a world where people are allowed to use the restroom of their choice.
 
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rjs330

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Do you have reason to think that John was trans?

One lesson from this might be that laws mandating separation by sex wouldn’t have prevented this. 17 years ago I don’t think most areas had laws intended to help trans people, so presumably what he was doing was illegal, whether he was trans or not.

Whether you're trans or not is irrelevant. Because individuals don't KNOW if a person is actually trans or not. The only person who really knows if they are trans is the trans individual.

If you are biologically male then stay out of the women's rooms period. Then no one has to try and figure out if your trans or not and his daughter has no need to worry.

Once you've had all the surgeries and hormone therapy necessary to transform you then feel free to use the restroom that matches.
 
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Sodafox

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The problem is that your example had nothing to do with a man identifying as a woman. The best we can do to address your daughters experience is to identify and deal with predators. Banning trans wouldn’t have helped.
True, but it opens the door to make the situation more common. If another woman was around that man may have gotten kicked out of that bathroom before the other user's daughter went in. However, if women can't comment on who's the bathroom because they might be trans, it's much easier for a pervert to hang around waiting for prey.
 
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