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Let's talk about "scientism"

poolerboy0077

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Excerpt from Steven Pinker's piece last year at New Republic titled "Science Is Not Your Enemy":
"The term “scientism” is anything but clear, more of a boo-word than a label for any coherent doctrine. Sometimes it is equated with lunatic positions, such as that “science is all that matters” or that “scientists should be entrusted to solve all problems.” Sometimes it is clarified with adjectives like “simplistic,” “naïve,” and “vulgar.” The definitional vacuum allows me to replicate gay activists’ flaunting of “queer” and appropriate the pejorative for a position I am prepared to defend.

"Scientism, in this good sense, is not the belief that members of the occupational guild called “science” are particularly wise or noble. On the contrary, the defining practices of science, including open debate, peer review, and double-blind methods, are explicitly designed to circumvent the errors and sins to which scientists, being human, are vulnerable. Scientism does not mean that all current scientific hypotheses are true; most new ones are not, since the cycle of conjecture and refutation is the lifeblood of science. It is not an imperialistic drive to occupy the humanities; the promise of science is to enrich and diversify the intellectual tools of humanistic scholarship, not to obliterate them. And it is not the dogma that physical stuff is the only thing that exists. Scientists themselves are immersed in the ethereal medium of information, including the truths of mathematics, the logic of their theories, and the values that guide their enterprise. In this conception, science is of a piece with philosophy, reason, and Enlightenment humanism. It is distinguished by an explicit commitment to two ideals, and it is these that scientism seeks to export to the rest of intellectual life.

"The first is that the world is intelligible. The phenomena we experience may be explained by principles that are more general than the phenomena themselves. These principles may in turn be explained by more fundamental principles, and so on. In making sense of our world, there should be few occasions in which we are forced to concede “It just is” or “It’s magic” or “Because I said so.” The commitment to intelligibility is not a matter of brute faith, but gradually validates itself as more and more of the world becomes explicable in scientific terms. The processes of life, for example, used to be attributed to a mysterious élan vital; now we know they are powered by chemical and physical reactions among complex molecules.

"Demonizers of scientism often confuse intelligibility with a sin called reductionism. But to explain a complex happening in terms of deeper principles is not to discard its richness. No sane thinker would try to explain World War I in the language of physics, chemistry, and biology as opposed to the more perspicuous language of the perceptions and goals of leaders in 1914 Europe. At the same time, a curious person can legitimately ask why human minds are apt to have such perceptions and goals, including the tribalism, overconfidence, and sense of honor that fell into a deadly combination at that historical moment.

"The second ideal is that the acquisition of knowledge is hard. The world does not go out of its way to reveal its workings, and even if it did, our minds are prone to illusions, fallacies, and superstitions. Most of the traditional causes of belief—faith, revelation, dogma, authority, charisma, conventional wisdom, the invigorating glow of subjective certainty—are generators of error and should be dismissed as sources of knowledge. To understand the world, we must cultivate work-arounds for our cognitive limitations, including skepticism, open debate, formal precision, and empirical tests, often requiring feats of ingenuity. Any movement that calls itself “scientific” but fails to nurture opportunities for the falsification of its own beliefs (most obviously when it murders or imprisons the people who disagree with it) is not a scientific movement."

 
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Jeremy E Walker

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Excerpt from Steven Pinker's piece last year at New Republic titled "Science Is Not Your Enemy":
"The term “scientism” is anything but clear, more of a boo-word than a label for any coherent doctrine. Sometimes it is equated with lunatic positions, such as that “science is all that matters” or that “scientists should be entrusted to solve all problems.” Sometimes it is clarified with adjectives like “simplistic,” “naïve,” and “vulgar.” The definitional vacuum allows me to replicate gay activists’ flaunting of “queer” and appropriate the pejorative for a position I am prepared to defend.

"Scientism, in this good sense, is not the belief that members of the occupational guild called “science” are particularly wise or noble. On the contrary, the defining practices of science, including open debate, peer review, and double-blind methods, are explicitly designed to circumvent the errors and sins to which scientists, being human, are vulnerable. Scientism does not mean that all current scientific hypotheses are true; most new ones are not, since the cycle of conjecture and refutation is the lifeblood of science. It is not an imperialistic drive to occupy the humanities; the promise of science is to enrich and diversify the intellectual tools of humanistic scholarship, not to obliterate them. And it is not the dogma that physical stuff is the only thing that exists. Scientists themselves are immersed in the ethereal medium of information, including the truths of mathematics, the logic of their theories, and the values that guide their enterprise. In this conception, science is of a piece with philosophy, reason, and Enlightenment humanism. It is distinguished by an explicit commitment to two ideals, and it is these that scientism seeks to export to the rest of intellectual life.

"The first is that the world is intelligible. The phenomena we experience may be explained by principles that are more general than the phenomena themselves. These principles may in turn be explained by more fundamental principles, and so on. In making sense of our world, there should be few occasions in which we are forced to concede “It just is” or “It’s magic” or “Because I said so.” The commitment to intelligibility is not a matter of brute faith, but gradually validates itself as more and more of the world becomes explicable in scientific terms. The processes of life, for example, used to be attributed to a mysterious élan vital; now we know they are powered by chemical and physical reactions among complex molecules.

"Demonizers of scientism often confuse intelligibility with a sin called reductionism. But to explain a complex happening in terms of deeper principles is not to discard its richness. No sane thinker would try to explain World War I in the language of physics, chemistry, and biology as opposed to the more perspicuous language of the perceptions and goals of leaders in 1914 Europe. At the same time, a curious person can legitimately ask why human minds are apt to have such perceptions and goals, including the tribalism, overconfidence, and sense of honor that fell into a deadly combination at that historical moment.

"The second ideal is that the acquisition of knowledge is hard. The world does not go out of its way to reveal its workings, and even if it did, our minds are prone to illusions, fallacies, and superstitions. Most of the traditional causes of belief—faith, revelation, dogma, authority, charisma, conventional wisdom, the invigorating glow of subjective certainty—are generators of error and should be dismissed as sources of knowledge. To understand the world, we must cultivate work-arounds for our cognitive limitations, including skepticism, open debate, formal precision, and empirical tests, often requiring feats of ingenuity. Any movement that calls itself “scientific” but fails to nurture opportunities for the falsification of its own beliefs (most obviously when it murders or imprisons the people who disagree with it) is not a scientific movement."


I agree with Steven, science is not our enemy.

In fact, science is one of the many tools God has given us to learn more about Him and to learn more about the world we live in and to help our fellow man.
 
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BL2KTN

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Jeremy said:
In fact, science is one of the many tools God has given us to learn more about Him and to learn more about the world we live in and to help our fellow man.

Good. I am glad to hear that you believe science to be a divinely provided tool. And, since scientific evidence overwhelmingly supports evolution to be true, I assume you now view that as a divinely revealed biological process.
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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Good. I am glad to hear that you believe science to be a divinely provided tool. And, since scientific evidence overwhelmingly supports evolution to be true, I assume you now view that as a divinely revealed biological process.

Depends on what you mean by "evolution". Maybe you can start a new thread about it?
 
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fireof god98

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I mean the theory of evolution, shown to be true through science. Fossils, genetics, strata, etc, all support it... and as a believer in science, I can't imagine that you don't also support it.

i think what he meant was microevolution or macroevolution as Christians tend to separate the terms
 
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Eudaimonist

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I agree with Steven, science is not our enemy.

In fact, science is one of the many tools God has given us to learn more about Him and to learn more about the world we live in and to help our fellow man.

Science as lap dog. If it barks at the right people, give it a treat. If it barks at you, hit its nose with a newspaper, because it is a bad dog!

Once you have declared that the purpose of science is to confirm your beliefs, you aren't doing science. You have a lap dog instead.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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Science as lap dog. If it barks at the right people, give it a treat. If it barks at you, hit its nose with a newspaper, because it is a bad dog!

Once you have declared that the purpose of science is to confirm your beliefs, you aren't doing science. You have a lap dog instead.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Science does confirm my beliefs. That is not the only thing it does nor is that the only thing I use it for. And yes it is a tool. One of many.
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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I mean the theory of evolution, shown to be true through science. Fossils, genetics, strata, etc, all support it... and as a believer in science, I can't imagine that you don't also support it.

I am not going to be discussing the theory of evolution here. Maybe you can start a thread in the science section?
 
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quatona

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I think there are some proponents of scientific naturalism or scientism here.

I would like for this thread to be centered on the view and its merits or lack thereof.

I may end up offering an invitation to debate someone if I get some good responses.
What are the actual statements or propositions that your script is prepared to tackle?
 
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quatona

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In fact, the whole enterprise of science assumes certain values in order to proceed, without being able to scientifically prove the validity of these values.
Yes:
Every method is based on axioms that can´t be proven by the method itself. That´s trivial. After all, the attempt to prove the validity of a method by the method itself would rightfully be rejected with reference to circularity.
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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Yes:
Every method is based on axioms that can´t be proven by the method itself. That´s trivial. After all, the attempt to prove the validity of a method by the method itself would rightfully be rejected with reference to circularity.

Exactly.
 
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quatona

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Consequently, there is no point in pointing this out as a flaw of one particular method.
If seriously interested in discerning good methods from bad ones we need to apply other criteria than those that all methods necessarily have in common.

But since I have yet to be presented a method that could possibly compete with the scientific method, in the first place, it seems to me that your point is moot anyway.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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Dr. Craig has defended both the Kalam and the argument from design which both rely heavily on the findings of contemporary cosmology and astrophysics.

Findings which, according to professional cosmologists, Craig has misconstrued to support his position.

That is your opinion. There are many who have come to Christ after hearing the arguments.

Really? How do you know that? Even when I was a Christian I found the arguments unimpressive.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I did not say scientific theories were permeated with and dependent upon assumptions that are neither empirically verifiable or subject to verification via scientific methods, although many are, but rather that science itself is permeated with and dependent upon assumptions that are neither empirically verifiable or subject to verification via scientific methods.

Scientists in conducting their research make certain assumptions that can neither be empirically verified or verified using science.

Some examples are:


1. The assumption that science is a reliable method of knowing about nature is not subject to verification through the scientific method. To argue that science is reliable by appealing to science is arguing in a circle.

2. The assumption that the speed of light is constant in one direction between any two points (A) and (B) is not subject to verification through the scientific method. Scientists presuppose that the speed of light is constant in one direction, but this simply cannot be proven.

3. Logical and mathematical truths cannot be verified by scientists for in attempting to do so, they would be relying upon logic and mathematical axioms to do so, and would thus be arguing in a circle.

4. The assumption that the external world of physical objects is real cannot be verified by science.

5. The assumption that the human mind is capable of understanding the nature of reality cannot be verified by science, for in attempting to do so, scientists would be relying upon the belief that they were accurately apprehending reality and thus would be arguing in a circle.

6. The assumption that the past was not created five minutes ago cannot be proven by scientists. Scientists presuppose that what we observe in nature is not some illusion of an aged world.

7. The assumption that any phenomena can be understood as an effect of the laws of nature cannot be proven by appealing to the scientific method, but is just assumed.

8. The assumption that the laws of nature are the same everywhere cannot be proved via the scientific method. Scientists presuppose this.

9. The assumption that other minds exist cannot be proven by science. Scientists take it for granted that the people they interact with on a daily basis are actually human beings and not androids.


All these plus many more cannot be proven by the scientific method. In short, they are metaphysical assumptions, not empirically verifiable facts.

In fact, the whole enterprise of science assumes certain values in order to proceed, without being able to scientifically prove the validity of these values. Chief among these values is that of honesty.

From recollection, Martymer 81 has an excellent video addressing most of these.
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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Consequently, there is no point in pointing this out as a flaw of one particular method.
If seriously interested in discerning good methods from bad ones we need to apply other criteria than those that all methods necessarily have in common.

But since I have yet to be presented a method that could possibly compete with the scientific method, in the first place, it seems to me that your point is moot anyway.

It is necessary to point it out to the one who does not think it is flawed which was one reason why I started this thread.
 
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Jeremy E Walker

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Findings which, according to professional cosmologists, Craig has misconstrued to support his position.



Really? How do you know that? Even when I was a Christian I found the arguments unimpressive.

Even if he did misconstrue the findings, it is enough that it be shown he has appealed to science to support his arguments which is all I was intending to prove by saying what I said.

Testimonials from people like ohh....Antony Flew? Maybe you have heard of him?
 
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