Let's talk about "scientism"

[bhsmte]

if one could understand god with reason alone then he would not really be god

How do you know that is true?

And if it is, then those who are more wired and or have learned to rely more on objective reasoning, are basically at a disadvantage when it comes to the God you are explaining, correct?

If so, why would an all loving God who loves all his creation, want certain people to be at a disadvantage?

 

[bhsmte]

Before I do that, you will agree that the nine or so assumptions I listed are assumptions that science depends upon as being true even though they cannot be proven by science and that the men and women engaging in scientific pursuit trust and believe that these assumptions obtain despite them being unable to empirically verify them.

You agree correct?

No I can not agree to your nine assumptions without reviewing each of them for validity and that will not happen in the short term.

 

[fireof god98]

How do you know that is true?

And if it is, then those who are more wired and or have learned to rely more on objective reasoning, are basically at a disadvantage when it comes to the God you are explaining, correct?

If so, why would an all loving God who loves all his creation, want certain people to be at a disadvantage?

no i am saying that we are all capable of having faith and we all do have faith including you. faith and reason together is what Thomas Aquinas would argue. they both help us come to the truth

 

[PsychoSarah]

no i am saying that we are all capable of having faith and we all do have faith including you. faith and reason together is what Thomas Aquinas would argue. they both help us come to the truth

Sure, I suppose all humans are probably capable of some sort of faith, but emotion and reason don't do so well together

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

I have yet to see an argument from a Christian apologist, that can be supported by science or empirical evidence and the prominent Christian's who are established scientists (like a Francis Collin's) all acknowledge the same.

Dr. Craig has defended both the Kalam and the argument from design which both rely heavily on the findings of contemporary cosmology and astrophysics.

The arguments I have seen, involve a certain reasoning, with assumptions that can only mean God and nothing else.

Yea.....uhh....deductive arguments for God usually end with a conclusion that God exists.

Also, the arguments utilized, do absolutely nothing to establish the God as the Christian God,

The argument for the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth does just this!

Certainly, I can see why Christians latch onto these arguments, to be able to feel more secure in their belief, but their ability to sway believers of other Gods, religions and or non-believers, falls woefully short IMO.

That is your opinion. There are many who have come to Christ after hearing the arguments.

Considering Christianity has been shrinking in the world for decades now, is a pretty good clue to how the story lacks credibility as people gain knowledge.

In some places it is in decline, in others, it is growing rapidly.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Sure, I suppose all humans are probably capable of some sort of faith, but emotion and reason don't do so well together

in your mind faith=emotion.

But my experience would argue against this.

Some of the most dispassionate people I know are people of faith and some of the most passionate, emotional people I know are atheists.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

No I can not agree to your nine assumptions without reviewing each of them for validity and that will not happen in the short term.

Then there is much about science you will come to learn in the days ahead!

 

[fireof god98]

Then there is much about science you will come to learn in the days ahead!

i guess he dosent have enough faith

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

No I can not agree to your nine assumptions without reviewing each of them for validity and that will not happen in the short term.

Basic assumptions of science

Start with Berkeley's website.

Personally, I do not see what there is to review.

Philosophy is the second order discipline, not science. Science is a first order discipline which is founded upon certain presuppositions that make it possible in the first place.

 

[bhsmte]

Dr. Craig has defended both the Kalam and the argument from design which both rely heavily on the findings of contemporary cosmology and astrophysics.

I know Craig's arguments very well.

Yea.....uhh....deductive arguments for God usually end with a conclusion that God exists.

Indeed, at the exclusion of multiple other possibilities.


The argument for the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth does just this!

The argument does so, if you are inclined to buy the argument as being likely. I have heard Craig's argument on this as well.

That is your opinion. There are many who have come to Christ after hearing the arguments.

I don't know who those people would be, when you say many, but I am sure there are some that are convinced, some who are less than convinced and some who feel the arguments are very weak. Again, overall, Christianity is declining, so more people are leaving Christianity, vs coming to it.

In some places it is in decline, in others, it is growing rapidly.

Christianity is only growing in the underdeveloped countries for the most part. Throughout the world, it has been declining for decades and has dropped about 9-10% in the united States on the last 10-15 years.

 

[bhsmte]

Then there is much about science you will come to learn in the days ahead!

I can't wait.

 

[bhsmte]

no i am saying that we are all capable of having faith and we all do have faith including you. faith and reason together is what Thomas Aquinas would argue. they both help us come to the truth

I would disagree that faith is always a good means to arrive at the truth, because it depends what is motivating that faith.

We all have psychological needs as people, that are unique to each of us. Having faith in certain things or beliefs is deeply related to the psyche of each person. If someone, has a strong psychological need to have faith or believe in something, their psyche will likely create the environment for that to happen. This is especially relevant, when dealing with subjective beliefs and or beliefs partially bolstered by personal experiences or perceptions.

So, some people may be able to use faith to help get at the truth along with more analytical thinking and others may indeed have their need to have faith in a certain belief take them away from the truth, because the clues that may be externally available to seek the truth, interfere or contradict their stronger need to hold onto their specific faith belief.

 

[bhsmte]

at one time many people held to the steady state theory and it explained very well how nuclear reactions inside the core of a star,not the big bang,could add more protons and neutrons to the nuclei of hydrogen and helium until they could make heavier elements. my point was that it was widely accept but later dropped and it was not because of corrupt scientists

Why was it dropped?

 

[bhsmte]

Basic assumptions of science

Start with Berkeley's website.

Personally, I do not see what there is to review.

Philosophy is the second order discipline, not science. Science is a first order discipline which is founded upon certain presuppositions that make it possible in the first place.

I asked you this in post 96, maybe you missed it:

By the way, do you agree with established scientific theories such as:

-Germ theory
-gravitational theory
-the theory of evolution

If so, why, if not, why not?

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Christianity is only growing in the underdeveloped countries for the most part. Throughout the world, it has been declining for decades and has dropped about 9-10% in the united States on the last 10-15 years.

Taken from the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

Given the advances of science and the retreat of religious beliefs, many in the latter half of the twentieth century agreed with the general Freudian view that a new era was on the horizon in which the infantile illusions, or perhaps delusions, of religion would soon go the way of the ancient Greek and Roman gods. With the onset of the twenty-first century, however, a new narrative has emerged. Religion has not fallen into oblivion, as many anticipated; in fact, religious belief is on the rise. Many factors account for this, including challenges to psychological and sociological theories which hold belief in God to be pathological or neurotic. In recent decades these theories have themselves been challenged by medical and psychological research, being understood by many to be theories designed primarily to destroy belief in God. Another important factor is the increase in the number of believing and outspoken scientists, such as Francis Collins, the director of the human genome project.

Now I do not particularly feel obligated to play the statistics game with you where we compare various statistics in an attempt to somehow validate our views.

Statistics can often times be misleading and too often, people put too much of an emphasis on them.

The fact that is most pertinent to our discussion is whether or not philosophers of science see scientism as self-refuting, and whether or not there is a resurgence in interest in God in philosophy departments.

The answer to both questions is a resounding YES.

 

[bhsmte]

Taken from the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

Given the advances of science and the retreat of religious beliefs, many in the latter half of the twentieth century agreed with the general Freudian view that a new era was on the horizon in which the infantile illusions, or perhaps delusions, of religion would soon go the way of the ancient Greek and Roman gods. With the onset of the twenty-first century, however, a new narrative has emerged. Religion has not fallen into oblivion, as many anticipated; in fact, religious belief is on the rise. Many factors account for this, including challenges to psychological and sociological theories which hold belief in God to be pathological or neurotic. In recent decades these theories have themselves been challenged by medical and psychological research, being understood by many to be theories designed primarily to destroy belief in God. Another important factor is the increase in the number of believing and outspoken scientists, such as Francis Collins, the director of the human genome project.

Now I do not particularly feel obligated to play the statistics game with you where we compare various statistics in an attempt to somehow validate our views.

Statistics can often times be misleading and too often, people put too much of an emphasis on them.

The fact that is most pertinent to our discussion is whether or not philosophers of science see scientism as self-refuting, and whether or not there is a resurgence in interest in God in philosophy departments.

The answer to both questions is a resounding YES.

Listen, I understand, the studies and polls are not on your side with this issue, so you want to discount them. If they were on your side, you would not be saying that.

Bottom line, there are boatloads of statistics showing the decline of Christianity world wide and in the United States.

Is Christianity in decline in America? When you examine the cold, hard numbers it is simply not possible to come to any other conclusion. Over the past few decades, the percentage of Christians in America has been steadily declining. This has especially been true among young people. As you will see later in this article, there has been a mass exodus of teens and young adults out of U.S.

How Will The Shocking Decline Of Christianity In America Affect The Future Of This Nation?

Numerous other sources state the same trend and it is real, though I understand it is disturbing to some Christians.

The real question is, why is this happening? Why are several high quality of life countries in other parts seen Christianity get to the point of being a minority and the United States continues to see a decline?

I have my ideas, but I can't prove them without a doubt, but many of the observers tend to have the same opinions.

The other relationship out there is education. Higher education levels typically relates to one being less likely to believe in a God and when the education goes to the graduate and PHD level, the number of believers drop quite dramatically.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Listen, I understand, the studies and polls are not on your side with this issue, so you want to discount them. If they were on your side, you would not be saying that.

Bottom line, there are boatloads of statistics showing the decline of Christianity world wide and in the United States.

Is Christianity in decline in America? When you examine the cold, hard numbers it is simply not possible to come to any other conclusion. Over the past few decades, the percentage of Christians in America has been steadily declining. This has especially been true among young people. As you will see later in this article, there has been a mass exodus of teens and young adults out of U.S.

How Will The Shocking Decline Of Christianity In America Affect The Future Of This Nation?

Numerous other sources state the same trend and it is real, though I understand it is disturbing to some Christians.

The real question is, why is this happening? Why are several high quality of life countries in other parts seen Christianity get to the point of being a minority and the United States continues to see a decline?

I have my ideas, but I can't prove them without a doubt, but many of the observers tend to have the same opinions.

The other relationship out there is education. Higher education levels typically relates to one being less likely to believe in a God and when the education goes to the graduate and PHD level, the number of believers drop quite dramatically.

LOL, I have no misgivings about the observable trends in America regarding people's religious beliefs or lack thereof.

As I stated before, Christianity is in decline in certain parts of the word and is growing rapidly in others.

So I agree with much of what you say. But let us not get off topic.

So, back to those assumptions that science is dependent upon......

 

[bhsmte]

LOL, I have no misgivings about the observable trends in America regarding people's religious beliefs or lack thereof.

As I stated before, Christianity is in decline in certain parts of the word and is growing rapidly in others.

So I agree with much of what you say. But let us not get off topic.

So, back to those assumptions that science is dependent upon......

I don't believe it is off topic, you were discussing the effectiveness of Christian apologetic arguments in swaying people and I presented evidence that Christianity in the United States and overall in the world, has been in decline.

I will examine the assumptions you listed when I have time to, I am out of here shortly.

Also, I asked you the questions before in post 96 before you even brought up the assumptions, would appreciate you responding to them.

I asked you this in post 96, maybe you missed it:

By the way, do you agree with established scientific theories such as:

-Germ theory
-gravitational theory
-the theory of evolution

If so, why, if not, why not?

 

[fireof god98]

Why was it dropped?

well in his theory,since the universe did not evolve but was continually creating new new matter,the early universe should look very much like the present-day universe. thus the steady state theory could be disproved if there was signs of big changes during the course of billions of years. this was found in the 60s when sources of immense power were found in outer space called quasars and they generated huge amounts of power and had huge red shifts,meaning they were billions of light years away and lite up the heavens in an awesome light show . scientists do not see any evidence of any quasars today,and according to the steady state theory they should exist. but they have disappeared. most people don't like to study cosmology or anything like that.

 

[fireof god98]

I would disagree that faith is always a good means to arrive at the truth, because it depends what is motivating that faith.

We all have psychological needs as people, that are unique to each of us. Having faith in certain things or beliefs is deeply related to the psyche of each person. If someone, has a strong psychological need to have faith or believe in something, their psyche will likely create the environment for that to happen. This is especially relevant, when dealing with subjective beliefs and or beliefs partially bolstered by personal experiences or perceptions.

So, some people may be able to use faith to help get at the truth along with more analytical thinking and others may indeed have their need to have faith in a certain belief take them away from the truth, because the clues that may be externally available to seek the truth, interfere or contradict their stronger need to hold onto their specific faith belief.

yes i agree. objective truth is of course true, independent of our thought.