Let's Talk About Hell

[Timothew]

Two posts, back to back, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!

Here is the #6 Passage

[6] Matt 7: 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say2 to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This passage does not address eternal torment. It says the lost do not enter the kingdom of heaven, and they will depart from Jesus, but the passage does not specify the type of torment.

 

[Studious One]

But Matthew 25:46 addresses the eternal torment of the unrighteious.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The interesting thing is, prior to 1611, Matthew 25:46 was always translated to show that the unrighteous would suffer torment or pain for ever..

Matthew 25:46 And these shall goe into euerlasting paine, and the righteous into life eternall. (Geneva Bible; 1587)

Matthew 25:46 And these shal go in to euerlastinge payne, but the righteous in to euerlastinge life. (Coverdale Bible; 1535)

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go into euerlastyng payne: the ryghteous into lyfe eternall.(Bishops Bible; 1568)

And these shall go into everlasting pain: And the righteous into life eternal. (Matthews Bible; 1537)

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go into everlastinge payne: And the righteous into lyfe eternall. (Tyndale; 1526)

Matthew 25:46 And these schulen goo in to euerlastynge turment; but the iust men schulen go in to euerlastynge lijf. (Wycliffe Bible; 1384)

 

[Timothew]

But Matthew 25:46 addresses the eternal torment of the unrighteious.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The interesting thing is, prior to 1611, Matthew 25:46 was always translated to show that the unrighteous would suffer torment or pain for ever..

Matthew 25:46 And these shall goe into euerlasting paine, and the righteous into life eternall. (Geneva Bible; 1587)

Matthew 25:46 And these shal go in to euerlastinge payne, but the righteous in to euerlastinge life. (Coverdale Bible; 1535)

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go into euerlastyng payne: the ryghteous into lyfe eternall.(Bishops Bible; 1568)

And these shall go into everlasting pain: And the righteous into life eternal. (Matthews Bible; 1537)

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go into everlastinge payne: And the righteous into lyfe eternall. (Tyndale; 1526)

Matthew 25:46And these schulen goo in to euerlastynge turment; but the iust men schulen go in to euerlastynge lijf. (Wycliffe Bible; 1384)

The greek is:
καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον, οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον

κόλασιν does not mean pain.
Original Word: κόλασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: kolasis
Phonetic Spelling: (kol'-as-is)
Short Definition: chastisement, punishment
Definition: chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation.

κόλασις originates from the verb κολάζω, which means "I curtail."

κόλασιν αἰώνιον is a punishment that lasts forever. This can either be eternal torment or death. I believe the punishment which lasts forever is death because in order for the lost to be tormented forever, they would also have to have eternal life, and the bible specifically says that there is only eternal life for those who trust in Christ.

 

[Pythons]

Scriptures view of "LIFE" is through the Resurrection body ( which ALL will get )...
...Those who are of the Lamb enter into everlasting life while those who are not of the Lamb.
...Enter into everlasting destruction or the second death.

The Adventist concept of this second death is that the lost will become as if they never existed in the first place....
...Which, according to Christ is NOT at all what happens.

That the lost will become as if they never were in the first place is found in all Adventist groups....
...Such as Christadelphians, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists and WWCOG.
...It's simply a new "wind of doctrine" which has sprung up that was combined with other teachings.
...Such as Christ could have sinned and lost His salvation then ceased to exist after He died the second death.
...Teachings like that stick together like birds of a feather.

 

[FredVB]

The Greek is:
καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον, οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον
κόλασιν αἰώνιον is a punishment that lasts forever. This can either be eternal torment or death. I believe the punishment which lasts forever is death because in order for the lost to be tormented forever, they would also have to have eternal life, and the bible specifically says that there is only eternal life for those who trust in Christ.

Timothew, I answered a previous post from you that would answer this, too, but you have gone on as if you had not seen it. I agree with this further answer from Pythons after the one from you which I have quoted.

Scriptures view of "LIFE" is through the Resurrection body ( which ALL will get )...
...Those who are of the Lamb enter into everlasting life while those who are not of the Lamb.
...Enter into everlasting destruction or the second death.

Eternal life is only referring to what really amounts to living, what we can have forever in bliss with God. Being in misery forever, even though this would include real consciousness, does not really amount to living as it would be counted.
That this is what the second death is meaning is explained in what I had written, which I will repost.

Gehenna always is referring to a place of suffering, that could not be the grave, it does correspond to the lake of fire pictured in Revelation 20. consider these verses, 5-6, 12-15:

The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is all the second death is, without anymore needed to add to its meaning. If eternal misery is described, as in the smoke of their torment goes up forever, then eternal consciousness inclusive of such misery is a part of that second death. Termination of consciousness is never suggested in these things referring to the second death.

 

[Studious One]

I am glad to see you are back, Der Alter. I would say that when Jesus said that, it can indeed be said that it had spiritual meaning to be applied for us, but it still had the literal meaning, although hypothetical. If eye or hand were what was responsible, that we would be cast into hell, indeed it would be the right thing to do to cut either that it was off and cast it away. But it is not any such body part but we ourselves that are responsible for the sin that will bring us to hell. What this means is we should remove whatever it is that leads us to these sins from our lives. If nothing was removed that would not negate being wholly cast into hell. If anything was removed off the body and such person was cast to hell, there was a resurrection to this judgment, and even if one was beheaded, in that resurrection still the head as well as any part would be part of the whole as it would be for all in that resurrection. Gehenna always is referring to a place of suffering, that could not be the grave, it does correspond to the lake of fire pictured in Revelation 20. consider these verses, 5-6, 12-15:

The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is all the second death is, without anymore needed to add to its meaning. If eternal misery is described, as in the smoke of their torment goes up forever, then eternal consciousness inclusive of such misery is a part of that second death. Termination of consciousness is never suggested in these things referring to the second death.

'nuff said. Amen!

 

[Der Alte]

The greek is:
καὶ ἀπελεύσονται οὗτοι εἰς κόλασιν αἰώνιον, οἱ δὲ δίκαιοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον

κόλασιν does not mean pain.
Original Word: κόλασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: kolasis
Phonetic Spelling: (kol'-as-is)
Short Definition: chastisement, punishment
Definition: chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation.

κόλασις originates from the verb κολάζω, which means "I curtail."

κόλασιν αἰώνιον is a punishment that lasts forever. This can either be eternal torment or death. I believe the punishment which lasts forever is death because in order for the lost to be tormented forever, they would also have to have eternal life, and the bible specifically says that there is only eternal life for those who trust in Christ.

ζωην αιωνιον/Zoe Aionion refers just as much to the quality as it does the duration. As clearly stated in Isa 14:9-11, Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31, Luke 16:19-31, God is omnipotent enough to cause conscious awareness which is definitely not ζωην αιωνιον. People merely saying over and over "Nuh Uh! That is all figurative!" Does NOT make it so!

 

[Der Alte]

Here is the #6 Passage

This passage does not address eternal torment. It says the lost do not enter the kingdom of heaven, and they will depart from Jesus, but the passage does not specify the type of torment.

Another deceptive, dishonest evasion of the wider context of all the other passages spoken by Jesus, e.g. Matt 13:39, 49, 18:8, 22:2-14, 23;15, 25;41, 46, Mark 9:43-48, Luke 13:27-28, Luke 16:19-31, John 15:6. Jesus does not say one thing in one place and mean something entirely different in another place.

When Jesus said Gehenna to Jews in 1st century Israel what did they understand? A garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, as many claim? No because there is NO, ZERO, NONE historical or archaeological evidence that the valley of Gehinnom was ever, at any time in history, used as a garbage dump! Or did the Jews understand Gehenna was the place prepared by God for the eternal, unending punishment of the unrighteous as documented in these two posts.

Previous post, from the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Jewish view of eternal punishment of the unrighteous. Click Link!

Previous post citing the Talmud, the teaching of Hillel and Shammai in Israel, at the time of Jesus, teaching on eternal punishment. Click Link!

 

[Timothew]

Timothew, I answered a previous post from you that would answer this, too, but you have gone on as if you had not seen it. I agree with this further answer from Pythons after the one from you which I have quoted.



Eternal life is only referring to what really amounts to living, what we can have forever in bliss with God. Being in misery forever, even though this would include real consciousness, does not really amount to living as it would be counted.
That this is what the second death is meaning is explained in what I had written, which I will repost.

The problem I have with this, is that the word "death" has to be radically redefined in order for your theory to work. In your view 'death' no longer means 'not living', it has a 'quality of life' aspect to it. No one says, "He's suffering, have a funeral and bury him because he's dead."

 

[Timothew]

Another deceptive, dishonest evasion of the wider context of all the other passages spoken by Jesus, e.g. Matt 13:39, 49, 18:8, 22:2-14, 23;15, 25;41, 46, Mark 9:43-48, Luke 13:27-28, Luke 16:19-31, John 15:6. Jesus does not say one thing in one place and mean something entirely different in another place.

When Jesus said Gehenna to Jews in 1st century Israel what did they understand? A garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, as many claim? No because there is NO, ZERO, NONE historical or archaeological evidence that the valley of Gehinnom was ever, at any time in history, used as a garbage dump! Or did the Jews understand Gehenna was the place prepared by God for the eternal, unending punishment of the unrighteous as documented in these two posts.

Previous post, from the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Jewish view of eternal punishment of the unrighteous. Click Link!

Previous post citing the Talmud, the teaching of Hillel and Shammai in Israel, at the time of Jesus, teaching on eternal punishment. Click Link!

I looked up all of the references that you posted and they do not say that the lost are in eternal torment, except for the story of Lazarus and the rich man. This story is a parable. If you take items in the parable out of context, you come to the wrong conclusion. Look at the wider context of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. I will address Luke 16:19- more when I come to it in your list of the 28.

I am not being deceptive when I say "This passage does not address eternal torment." It doesn't, I'm sure you know that it doesn't address eternal torment.

I'm not saying Gehenna is a garbage dump. It was a valley outside of Jerusalem. I'm sure the Jews understood Gehenna as a valley outside of the city of God.

I won't respond to the 2 links. The Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud are not relevant to the discussion. They are not inspired, the Bible is.

 

[Timothew]

Twenty eight (28) passages, in order as they occur in the Bible, Jesus speaking on eternal punishment of the wicked.

Here's the #7 passage

[7] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

You keep on saying I ignore the context, so I will post the context. (NASB)

5And when Jesus entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, imploring Him, 6and saying, “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, fearfully tormented.” 7Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8But the centurion said, “Lord, I am not worthy for You to come under my roof, but just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9“For I also am a man under authority, with soldiers under me; and I say to this one, ‘Go!’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come!’ and he comes, and to my slave, ‘Do this!’ and he does it.” 10Now when Jesus heard this, He marveled and said to those who were following, “Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. 11“I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13And Jesus said to the centurion, “Go; it shall be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed that very moment.

You can see from the context that Jesus is not saying that the wicked will be in torment for eternity. He doesn't say that at all. Jesus is telling them that many Gentiles will be included in God's Kingdom and many who believed they were automatically in God's Kingdom because of their heritage would be cast out. Outer darkness shows that they are away from God and his light. Think of this light as in John, chapter one. Weeping and gnashing of teeth is a result of their anger at being cast out of the Kingdom.

Clearly, this passage does not say that the wicked will be tormented for all time.

 

[Studious One]

The problem I have with this, is that the word "death" has to be radically redefined in order for your theory to work. In your view 'death' no longer means 'not living', it has a 'quality of life' aspect to it. No one says, "He's suffering, have a funeral and bury him because he's dead."

No, we have a funeral because death is a process of separation of the soul and the body.

Upon death, the body is prepared for burial, while the soul continues on its journey into either the arms of Jesus or the pit called hell until the event known as the Rapture takes place.

Now, hell can be likened to the local jail. When a prisoner gets arrested for a serious crime, they do not take him immediately to the penitentiary because he has not yet had a trial. They take him to the local jail, the holding place before the trial. When I was arrested back in the 70's, I was taken to the jail and waited there for my trial.

The Great White Throne Judgment can be likened to the court trial.

After the trial, the condemned is sent to the final penitentiary. This is a picture of the unrighteous being cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. This is their final destination and where they will spend eternity for their rejection of Christ.

 

[Der Alte]

I looked up all of the references that you posted and they do not say that the lost are in eternal torment, except for the story of Lazarus and the rich man. This story is a parable. If you take items in the parable out of context, you come to the wrong conclusion. Look at the wider context of the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. I will address Luke 16:19- more when I come to it in your list of the 28.

If you wish to argue that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable you must prove it from scripture not just assume it as you are doing. The argument "Jesus used a lot of parables so Luke 16:19 ff is also a parable!" is NOT proof!

I am not being deceptive when I say "This passage does not address eternal torment." It doesn't, I'm sure you know that it doesn't address eternal torment.

I'm not saying Gehenna is a garbage dump. It was a valley outside of Jerusalem. I'm sure the Jews understood Gehenna as a valley outside of the city of God.

I won't respond to the 2 links. The Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud are not relevant to the discussion. They are not inspired, the Bible is.

What you are saying to me is, "I am not interested in anything you say! All I am going to do is discuss one verse at a time and ignore everything else!" I realize that the Jewish Encyclopedia and Talmud are not inspired scripture but they are AFAIK the only credible, verifiable, historical evidence documenting the beliefs and practices of the 1st century Jews. How are you sure that the Jews understood that Gehenna was a valley outside the city of God? Where does scripture say that? If that is true then what would 1st century Jews understand by the "fires of Gehenna?" What would they understand by "being cast into Gehenna?"

This as with all your other posts ignores the wider context of all the other passages spoken by Jesus, e.g. Matt 13:39, 49, 18:8, 22:2-14, 23;15, 25;41, 46, Mark 9:43-48, Luke 13:27-28, Luke 16:19-31, John 15:6. Jesus does not say one thing in one place and mean something entirely different in another place.

When Jesus said Gehenna to Jews in 1st century Israel what did they understand? A garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, as many claim? No because there is NO, ZERO, NONE historical or archaeological evidence that the valley of Gehinnom was ever, at any time in history, used as a garbage dump! Or did the Jews understand Gehenna was the place prepared by God for the eternal, unending punishment of the unrighteous as documented in these two posts.

Previous post, from the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Jewish view of eternal punishment of the unrighteous. Click Link!

Previous post citing the Talmud, the teaching of Hillel and Shammai in Israel, at the time of Jesus, teaching on eternal punishment. Click Link!

 

[Studious One]

If you wish to argue that Luke 16:19-31 is a parable you must prove it from scripture not just assume it as you are doing. The argument "Jesus used a lot of parables so Luke 16:19 ff is also a parable!" is NOT proof!



What you are saying to me is, "I am not interested in anything you say! All I am going to do is discuss one verse at a time and ignore everything else!" I realize that the Jewish Encyclopedia and Talmud are not inspired scripture but they are AFAIK the only credible, verifiable, historical evidence documenting the beliefs and practices of the 1st century Jews. How are you sure that the Jews understood that Gehenna was a valley outside the city of God? Where does scripture say that? If that is true then what would 1st century Jews understand by the "fires of Gehenna?" What would they understand by "being cast into Gehenna?"

This as with all your other posts ignores the wider context of all the other passages spoken by Jesus, e.g. Matt 13:39, 49, 18:8, 22:2-14, 23;15, 25;41, 46, Mark 9:43-48, Luke 13:27-28, Luke 16:19-31, John 15:6. Jesus does not say one thing in one place and mean something entirely different in another place.

When Jesus said Gehenna to Jews in 1st century Israel what did they understand? A garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, as many claim? No because there is NO, ZERO, NONE historical or archaeological evidence that the valley of Gehinnom was ever, at any time in history, used as a garbage dump! Or did the Jews understand Gehenna was the place prepared by God for the eternal, unending punishment of the unrighteous as documented in these two posts.

Previous post, from the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Jewish view of eternal punishment of the unrighteous. Click Link!

Previous post citing the Talmud, the teaching of Hillel and Shammai in Israel, at the time of Jesus, teaching on eternal punishment. Click Link!

Even if Geenna were used as a garbage dump and a place where the pagans sacrificed their children, there is no historical evidence that the Jews were cast into that garbage dump and burned. It is said that the pagans sacrificed their own children in the fires of Geenna, not that Jews were sacrificed.

So when Jesus said, 'It is better to cut off your hand or pluck out your eye, or cut off your foot and enter into heaven than to be cast into hell (Geenna), the Jews He was speaking to knew He was not saying they would be cast into a garbage dump. He was speaking of something far worse than a garbage dump... He was speaking of the lake of fire and brimstone, where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched.

 

[Pythons]

Criminals were dumped there AND Jews believed that if they spent time there when they were alive....
....It would lessen the time they would spend in PURGATORY.

 

[Der Alte]

Even if Geenna were used as a garbage dump and a place where the pagans sacrificed their children, there is no historical evidence that the Jews were cast into that garbage dump and burned. It is said that the pagans sacrificed their own children in the fires of Geenna, not that Jews were sacrificed.

So when Jesus said, 'It is better to cut off your hand or pluck out your eye, or cut off your foot and enter into heaven than to be cast into hell (Geenna), the Jews He was speaking to knew He was not saying they would be cast into a garbage dump. He was speaking of something far worse than a garbage dump... He was speaking of the lake of fire and brimstone, where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched.

I agree! See the two links in my post above citing credible, verifiable, historical evidence from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud that the Jews before and during the time of Jesus understood Gehenna and Hades as a place of eternal, unending, conscious punishment of the unrighteous.

 

[Der Alte]

Criminals were dumped there AND Jews believed that if they spent time there when they were alive....
....It would lessen the time they would spend in PURGATORY.

NO, ZERO, NONE credible, verifiable, historical evidence that this is true!

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.​

 

[Christos Anesti]

The good news is that no one has to go to hell. Christ stands at the door of all our hearts and knocks. He is ready to set us free.

"Into hell with love He entered. To Him the broken gates yield. The bolts and massive hinges fall asunder at His word. Now the door of ready entrance but forbidding all return outward swings. Bars are loosened and send forth the prisoned souls by reversal of the mandate, treading its threshold once more"

Prudentius Hymns 9.70-75

 

[Studious One]

Criminals were dumped there AND Jews believed that if they spent time there when they were alive....
....It would lessen the time they would spend in PURGATORY.

Not true. The false doctrine of purgatory was not taught until the Roman Catholic Church.

Even in 60 A.D., the Apostle Paul was teaching that to be absent from the body was to be present with the Lord for those who were saved. Not purgatory, present with the Lord.

 

[Mikecpking]

No, we have a funeral because death is a process of separation of the soul and the body.

Upon death, the body is prepared for burial, while the soul continues on its journey into either the arms of Jesus or the pit called hell until the event known as the Rapture takes place.

Have you any scriptures to show that souls go to the arms of Jesus?
Because, biblically speaking, there is no such thing as a disembodied soul.

Now, hell can be likened to the local jail. When a prisoner gets arrested for a serious crime, they do not take him immediately to the penitentiary because he has not yet had a trial. They take him to the local jail, the holding place before the trial. When I was arrested back in the 70's, I was taken to the jail and waited there for my trial.

The Great White Throne Judgment can be likened to the court trial.

After the trial, the condemned is sent to the final penitentiary. This is a picture of the unrighteous being cast into the lake of fire and brimstone. This is their final destination and where they will spend eternity for their rejection of Christ.

hmm, the Hebrews had another idea about sheol as a place where all the dead, both righteous and non righteous entered. There was no conciousness (Psalm 146:4, Ecclesiates 9:5 and in death, they were in the graves or the dust of the earth until the resurrection (Dan 12:2, John 5:28) and then the great white throne, judgement and then thrown into the lake of fire.

YouTube - State of the Dead - First response to OneTrueChurch (2A)