Let's Talk About Hell

[Pythons]

I have many times followed what I could of some of these dialogues even though generally not posting, and when Der Alter had stopped, it concerned me, and having just recently looked, I will say it can be found he was a very frequent poster, many times every day, but his posting history stops December 18 last year. I do not know what it means, whether he is still here in this world with us or not; if he is any intensive care I would express hope for quick recovery. Lack of further response to this thread clearly did not mean there was no answer that could be given. I could not hope to give Der Alter's well-studied expertise. If any still want this last part to be answered, I might try with my own answer, but it will have to be a few days from now, and I would still not post anywhere near as frequently.

Hi Der Alter.

 

[Timothew]

Has anyone seen Der Alter? I hope that he is OK.

 

[chingchang]

I don't believe in the fire torment pit of hell. I believe that "hell" is the darkness outside of heaven where the evil souls are because they can't get into heaven, and because they are evil they torment eachother. But, not a pit of fire. I just don't believe that God would create such a place and then threaten to send people there to roast forever. O course, I could be wrong, it's just my own opinion.

What do you think?

Nice opinion Lisa...but why not use scripture and a sprinkling of reason to arrive at what Hell is and is not? I think Hell is real and people will go there...to be destroyed as a final judgment. My view is the annihilation view...and I think it is the only intellectually honest way to avoid the traditional view (suffering hellfire for eternity) and stay true to the scriptures.

Here is a great book that stacks up the evidence for both the traditional and annihilationist views of Hell:

Amazon.com: Two Views of Hell: A Biblical & Theological Dialogue (Spectrum) (9780830822553): Edward William Fudge, Robert A. Peterson: Books

One thing I know for sure is that we can learn much of God's character through the Bible. Not once...anywhere...in the text can we establish God as being torturous. God destroys...sure...we have many examples of that. Even Jude testifies to this:

Jude 1:7 (NIV)
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

So...we are given a glimpse of what happens in Hell ('eternal fire') through the example of Sodom and Gomorrah. What happened to those cities? They were destroyed...nothing left.

I could go on...and on...but I'm confident that if the Bible is worth the paper it is printed on then Hell is a real place. I'm also confident that it is impossible to reconcile 'God is love' with a being that would be o.k. with endless torture.

CC

 

[Der Alte]

Der Alter is alive and well in ■■■■■■■ I was in ICU with a NDE but that was almost a year ago. I have not been sick or in the hospital, this time, you might say I was being held captive by militants until I was rescued by Ziva, Tony, Tim, and Jethro.

 

[Der Alte]

I'm willing to go examine your longer list one by one, or your shorter list. It doesn't make any difference to me.
I'll keep the computer acronyms and smileys off if you wish. I didn't know that they bothered you.

When I post a lengthy discussion with scripture and someone replies with nothing but ROTFl and some smiley faces, yes it does bother me.

Let's start with the 1st item on your shorter list, you've numbered it "4."

[4] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.​

This passage does not say that the whole body is tortured alive forever. Do you agree with that statement?

While this verse alone does not state how long the being thrown into hell lasts, how does Jesus describe hell in other verses? When does this passage change from the offending person being in hell, to the person in hell being taken out? It has been 2000 years since it was written and it hasn't changed yet.

 

[Timothew]

When I post a lengthy discussion with scripture and someone replies with nothing but ROTFl and some smiley faces, yes it does bother me.
I'm sorry about that, I was rude and inconsiderate. I will try to be more respectful to you than I have been in the past. Please accept my apology.

I'm so glad that you are back on CF.


While this verse alone does not state how long the being thrown into hell lasts, how does Jesus describe hell in other verses? When does this passage change from the offending person being in hell, to the person in hell being taken out? It has been 2000 years since it was written and it hasn't changed yet.

My point was that this verse doesn't say that the condemned suffer eternal torment, just that it is better to throw an eye away than to have your body thrown into Gehenna. Gehenna could still refer to the grave site.
Jesus's point may have been that it is better to lose an eye than to lose your life.

This verse itself doesn't make the case that Gehenna is a fiery hell, or that people are in torment there.

Welcome back, I'm so glad to see your post, and know that you are OK.

 

[Der Alte]

My point was that this verse doesn't say that the condemned suffer eternal torment, just that it is better to throw an eye away than to have your body thrown into Gehenna. Gehenna could still refer to the grave site.
Jesus's point may have been that it is better to lose an eye than to lose your life.

While technically correct your reply is misleading and deceptive because this one passage is not all Jesus said on the subject and we cannot ignore the context of everything Jesus said about punishment of the wicked. Your reply implies that if a person cuts off his offending hand or plucks out his offending eye he will not die, since according to you "Hades" is only the grave.

Does Jesus teach anywhere that a person trying to live a sin free life, by his own efforts, will prevent their dying and being buried in Hades, the grave according to you? Jesus does not contradict scripture which states "there is none righteous, no not one, they are all together become unclean?""All our righteousnesses are become as filthy rags." So if chopping off a hand or plucking out an eye will not prevent someone from dying, what did Jesus mean when he said,

Mat 5:29-30
(29) And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
(30) And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
​

This verse itself doesn't make the case that Gehenna is a fiery hell, or that people are in torment there.

Welcome back, I'm so glad to see your post, and know that you are OK.

Again misleading and deceptive. You are correct, this particular verse does not say that Gehenna is a fiery hell, but that is the meaning of the word. See the complete definition from BAGD, in another thread. Here! And Jesus certainly refers to Gehenna as a fiery hell in other verses. He did not mean one thing, by Gehenna, in one place and something different in another place Unlike you I do not interpret verses in isolation and ignore the context!

 

[Der Alte]

[ . . . ]So...we are given a glimpse of what happens in Hell ('eternal fire') through the example of Sodom and Gomorrah. What happened to those cities? They were destroyed...nothing left.

I could go on...and on...but I'm confident that if the Bible is worth the paper it is printed on then Hell is a real place. I'm also confident that it is impossible to reconcile 'God is love' with a being that would be o.k. with endless torture.

And the same Bible which says Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed also says that all "who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Dan 12:2 and "It is appointed to men once to die after that the judgment" Heb 9:27. So the book has not been closed on Sodom and Gomorrah, yet!

Two posts, back to back, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!

 

[FredVB]

[4] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.


This passage does not say that the whole body is tortured alive forever. Do you agree with that statement?

I am glad to see you are back, Der Alter. I would say that when Jesus said that, it can indeed be said that it had spiritual meaning to be applied for us, but it still had the literal meaning, although hypothetical. If eye or hand were what was responsible, that we would be cast into hell, indeed it would be the right thing to do to cut either that it was off and cast it away. But it is not any such body part but we ourselves that are responsible for the sin that will bring us to hell. What this means is we should remove whatever it is that leads us to these sins from our lives. If nothing was removed that would not negate being wholly cast into hell. If anything was removed off the body and such person was cast to hell, there was a resurrection to this judgment, and even if one was beheaded, in that resurrection still the head as well as any part would be part of the whole as it would be for all in that resurrection. Gehenna always is referring to a place of suffering, that could not be the grave, it does correspond to the lake of fire pictured in Revelation 20. consider these verses, 5-6, 12-15:

The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is all the second death is, without anymore needed to add to its meaning. If eternal misery is described, as in the smoke of their torment goes up forever, then eternal consciousness inclusive of such misery is a part of that second death. Termination of consciousness is never suggested in these things referring to the second death.

 

[Der Alte]

I am glad to see you are back, Der Alter. I would say that when Jesus said that, it can indeed be said that it had spiritual meaning to be applied for us, but it still had the literal meaning, although hypothetical. If eye or hand were what was responsible, that we would be cast into hell, indeed it would be the right thing to do to cut either that it was off and cast it away. But it is not any such body part but we ourselves that are responsible for the sin that will bring us to hell. What this means is we should remove whatever it is that leads us to these sins from our lives. If nothing was removed that would not negate being wholly cast into hell. If anything was removed off the body and such person was cast to hell, there was a resurrection to this judgment, and even if one was beheaded, in that resurrection still the head as well as any part would be part of the whole as it would be for all in that resurrection. Gehenna always is referring to a place of suffering, that could not be the grave, it does correspond to the lake of fire pictured in Revelation 20. consider these verses, 5-6, 12-15:

The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

This is all the second death is, without anymore needed to add to its meaning. If eternal misery is described, as in the smoke of their torment goes up forever, then eternal consciousness inclusive of such misery is a part of that second death. Termination of consciousness is never suggested in these things referring to the second death.

Thank you. The only thing I can add to your post is this, Amen!

 

[Timothew]

Two posts, back to back, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!

It is true that I am looking at each of these 28 passages in isolation.
But I hope to be able to examine each one fully, with your permission.

If they address eternal punishment, then that settles it. But if we examine each one, and none of them address eternal punishment (in the sense of eternal conscious torment), then it would be up to you to either use other verses to support your conclusion or reach another conclusion.

Is that a fair way to examine this issue?

 

[Der Alte]

It is true that I am looking at each of these 28 passages in isolation.
But I hope to be able to examine each one fully, with your permission.

If they address eternal punishment, then that settles it. But if we examine each one, and none of them address eternal punishment (in the sense of eternal conscious torment), then it would be up to you to either use other verses to support your conclusion or reach another conclusion.

Is that a fair way to examine this issue?

Examine away, but remember, "A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text!" The wider context is, everything Jesus said at any time, about any subject. And thus every verse where Jesus addressed punishment of the unrighteous, must be reviewed to determine what he meant in any one verse. That is why I listed every verse where Jesus addresses punishment of the unrighteous! Then of course we must take into account the full meaning of key words such as "Hades" and "Gehenna!" I have provided the full definition of both words from the renowned Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich Lexicon of NT Greek in the post at this link!

 

[Timothew]

While technically correct your reply is misleading and deceptive because this one passage is not all Jesus said on the subject and we cannot ignore the context of everything Jesus said about punishment of the wicked. Your reply implies that if a person cuts off his offending hand or plucks out his offending eye he will not die, since according to you "Hades" is only the grave.

Does Jesus teach anywhere that a person trying to live a sin free life, by his own efforts, will prevent their dying and being buried in Hades, the grave according to you? Jesus does not contradict scripture which states "there is none righteous, no not one, they are all together become unclean?""All our righteousnesses are become as filthy rags." So if chopping off a hand or plucking out an eye will not prevent someone from dying, what did Jesus mean when he said,

Mat 5:29-30
​

(29) And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
(30) And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

​

Again misleading and deceptive. You are correct, this particular verse does not say that Gehenna is a fiery hell, but that is the meaning of the word. See the complete definition from BAGD, in another thread. Here! And Jesus certainly refers to Gehenna as a fiery hell in other verses. He did not mean one thing, by Gehenna, in one place and something different in another place Unlike you I do not interpret verses in isolation and ignore the context!

OK, I don't want want to interpret verses in isolation and ignore the context, that is why I want to look at every one of the passages that you say address eternal punishment to see if they say that the punishment is eternal conscious torment.

You've said that passage 4 from your list doesn't say that the lost are in torment unless you look at the context of all of the other passages. Previously we've looked at 1-3, they didn't say eternal torment either. (again, unless the context of the other verses say this)

Moving on to passage #5

[5]Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, [i.e. Kingdom of heaven, vs. 21] and few there be that find it.

Does this passage say that the lost are in torment?
The first verse says that many will go into destruction. Isn't this what I have been saying is the fate of the lost? Clearly the first verse teaches the opposite of what you are saying.

The second verse says that few find the way the leadeth unto life. If the lost are tormented for all of eternity, then they also have found a way into eternal life. But this verse specifically says that not everyone finds the way to eternal life.

The definition of death is not having life.

So in these verses, Jesus is saying that the fate of the lost is death, and He is not saying that the fate of the lost is eternal torment.

 

[Der Alte]

OK, I don't want want to interpret verses in isolation and ignore the context, that is why I want to look at every one of the passages that you say address eternal punishment to see if they say that the punishment is eternal conscious torment.

You say you don't want to interpret verses in isolation, and ignore the context, then you proceed to do exactly that! You also ignored my comments about your implication that people who cut off a hand/plucked out an eye would not be thrown into the grave!

Jesus was speaking to 1st century Jews in Israel and used the word Gehenna in Mat 5:29-30. I provided the full definition of Gehenna, in another post. Here ! Ignored! I also provided historical evidence, in other posts, from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud documenting what 1st century Jews in Israel would have understood by Gehenna, which was a place of unending fiery punishment for the unrighteous. All ignored!

You've said that passage 4 from your list doesn't say that the lost are in torment unless you look at the context of all of the other passages. Previously we've looked at 1-3, they didn't say eternal torment either. (again, unless the context of the other verses say this)

Moving on to passage #5

[5]Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, [ἀπώλεια] and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, [i.e. Kingdom of heaven, vs. 21] and few there be that find it.​

Does this passage say that the lost are in torment? The first verse says that many will go into destruction. Isn't this what I have been saying is the fate of the lost? Clearly the first verse teaches the opposite of what you are saying.

The second verse says that few find the way the leadeth unto life. If the lost are tormented for all of eternity, then they also have found a way into eternal life. But this verse specifically says that not everyone finds the way to eternal life.

The definition of death is not having life.

So in these verses, Jesus is saying that the fate of the lost is death, and He is not saying that the fate of the lost is eternal torment.

ἀπώλεια, a", hJ (Demades [IV BC ] in the sense ‘loss’; later writers; inscr. , pap. , oft. LX X; En. ; Test. 12 Patr. ) destruction.

1. trans ., the destruction that one causes, waste ( Polyb. 6, 11a, 10 opp. thvrhsi" ; PTebt. 276, 34) eij" tiv hJ aj. au{th t. muvrou ; why this waste of the ointment? Mk 14:4 ; cf. Mt 26:8 .

2. intrans. the destruction that one experiences, annihilation both complete and in process, ruin (so usu. LX X; Ep. Arist. 167; Philo , Aet. M. 20; 74; Jos. , Ant. 15, 62, Vi. 272; Test. Dan 4:5; but also in Polyb. , Plut. , Epict. et al. [ Nägeli 35]; Diod. S. 15, 48, 1 with fqorav ; Herm. Wr. 12, 16; PGM 4, 1247 f paradivdwmi se eij" to; mevlan cavo" ejn t. ajpwleivai" ) Ac 25:16 t.r .; (w. o[leqron) buqivzein eij" o[. kai; aj. plunge into utter destruction 1 Ti 6:9 ; ei\nai eij" aj. perish Ac 8:20 (Da 2:5 and 3:96 Theod.
); pro;" t. ijdivan aujtw`n aj. to their own ruin 2 Pt 3:16 ; ( w. plavnh ) 2 Cl 1:7. Esp. of eternal destruction as punishment for the wicked: Mt 7:13 ; eij" aj. uJpavgein go to destr. Rv 17:8 , 11 . ( Opp. peripoivhsi" yuch`" ) Hb 10:39 . ( Opp. swthriva ) Phil 1:28 . hJmevra krivsew" kai; ajpwleiva" (Job 21:30 ) t. ajsebw`n ajnqrwvpwn day of judgment and (consequent) destruction of wicked men 2 Pt 3:7 . Hence the end of the wicked is described as aj. Phil 3:19 . skeuvh ojrgh`", kathrtismevna eij" aj. objects of ( his ) anger, ready for destruction Ro 9:22 (Is 54:16 ). It will come quickly 2 Pt 2:1 , is not sleeping vs. 3. Appears as a consequence of death (cf. Job 28 , 22 ): oJ qavnato" aj. e[cei aijwvnion Hs 6, 2, 4; God laughs at it 1 Cl 57:4 (Pr 1:26 ). Those destined to destruction are uiJoi; th`" aj. J 17:12 ; AP 1:2. The Antichrist is also uiJo;" th`" aj. 2 Th 2:3 . aiJrevsei" ajpwleiva" heresies that lead to destr. 2 Pt 2:1 ; dovgmata th`" aj. AP 1:1. M-M. *

A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker​

 

[Timothew]

You say you don't want to interpret verses in isolation, and ignore the context, then you proceed to do exactly that! You also ignored my comments about your implication that people who cut off a hand/plucked out an eye would not be thrown into the grave!

Jesus was speaking to 1st century Jews in Israel and used the word Gehenna in Mat 5:29-30. I provided the full definition of Gehenna, in another post. Here ! Ignored! I also provided historical evidence, in other posts, from the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud documenting what 1st century Jews in Israel would have understood by Gehenna, which was a place of unending fiery punishment for the unrighteous. All ignored!

ἀπώλεια, a", hJ (Demades [IV BC ] in the sense ‘loss’; later writers; inscr. , pap. , oft. LX X; En. ; Test. 12 Patr. ) destruction.
​

1. trans ., the destruction that one causes, waste ( Polyb. 6, 11a, 10 opp. thvrhsi" ; PTebt. 276, 34) eij" tiv hJ aj. au{th t. muvrou ; why this waste of the ointment? Mk 14:4 ; cf. Mt 26:8 .

2. intrans. the destruction that one experiences, annihilation both complete and in process, ruin (so usu. LX X; Ep. Arist. 167; Philo , Aet. M. 20; 74; Jos. , Ant. 15, 62, Vi. 272; Test. Dan 4:5; but also in Polyb. , Plut. , Epict. et al. [ Nägeli 35]; Diod. S. 15, 48, 1 with fqorav ; Herm. Wr. 12, 16; PGM 4, 1247 f paradivdwmi se eij" to; mevlan cavo" ejn t. ajpwleivai" ) Ac 25:16 t.r .; (w. o[leqron) buqivzein eij" o[. kai; aj. plunge into utter destruction 1 Ti 6:9 ; ei\nai eij" aj. perish Ac 8:20 (Da 2:5 and 3:96 Theod.
); pro;" t. ijdivan aujtw`n aj. to their own ruin 2 Pt 3:16 ; ( w. plavnh ) 2 Cl 1:7. Esp. of eternal destruction as punishment for the wicked: Mt 7:13 ; eij" aj. uJpavgein go to destr. Rv 17:8 , 11 . ( Opp. peripoivhsi" yuch`" ) Hb 10:39 . ( Opp. swthriva ) Phil 1:28 . hJmevra krivsew" kai; ajpwleiva" (Job 21:30 ) t. ajsebw`n ajnqrwvpwn day of judgment and (consequent) destruction of wicked men 2 Pt 3:7 . Hence the end of the wicked is described as aj. Phil 3:19 . skeuvh ojrgh`", kathrtismevna eij" aj. objects of ( his ) anger, ready for destruction Ro 9:22 (Is 54:16 ). It will come quickly 2 Pt 2:1 , is not sleeping vs. 3. Appears as a consequence of death (cf. Job 28 , 22 ): oJ qavnato" aj. e[cei aijwvnion Hs 6, 2, 4; God laughs at it 1 Cl 57:4 (Pr 1:26 ). Those destined to destruction are uiJoi; th`" aj. J 17:12 ; AP 1:2. The Antichrist is also uiJo;" th`" aj. 2 Th 2:3 . aiJrevsei" ajpwleiva" heresies that lead to destr. 2 Pt 2:1 ; dovgmata th`" aj. AP 1:1. M-M. *

A Greek-English Lexicon Gingrich & Danker
​

The definition you've provided shows that apoleia means destruction, how is what I've said out of context in any way?

Your dictionary definition says that Gehenna is the place of eternal suffering after death, but isn't that what we are trying to determine by reading the bible?
What do they call that? Begging the question?

You said that you had 28 passages proving that the lost are in eternal torment. I'm examining the 28 passages and not finding evidence of eternal torment in them.

Does passage 5 prove that the lost are in eternal torment?

 

[Der Alte]

The definition you've provided shows that apoleia means destruction, how is what I've said out of context in any way?

You failed to see that ἀπώλεια/apoleia also means "sense of loss, destruction that person causes, waste, ruin, objects of anger, consequence of death,"

Your dictionary definition says that Gehenna is the place of eternal suffering after death, but isn't that what we are trying to determine by reading the bible?
What do they call that? Begging the question?

Evidently you do not know what "begging the question" means! It certainly does NOT mean citing a lexicon definition which defines words in the Bible. This and your other posts constitutes "begging the question". You have your mind made up what you think words and passages mean and you ignore the lexical definitions, and historical evidence I post.

You said that you had 28 passages proving that the lost are in eternal torment. I'm examining the 28 passages and not finding evidence of eternal torment in them.

Does passage 5 prove that the lost are in eternal torment?

So far you have ignored the full contest of Jesus' teaching and ignored lexicons and historical evidence.

Previous post, from the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Jewish view of eternal punishment of the unrighteous. Click Link!

Previous post citing the Talmud, the teaching of Hillel and Shammai in Israel, at the time of Jesus, teaching on eternal punishment. Click Link!

Previous post Lazarus and the rich man. Link!

Previous post the early church and eternal punishment. Click Link!

Previous post Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker definition of Hades and Gehenna. Click Link!

 

[HolyGuardianAngels]

I don't want to be the one to burst your bubbble; however, HELL is a very real place. It scares me to think about it.

 

[Timothew]

You failed to see that ἀπώλεια/apoleia also means "sense of loss, destruction that person causes, waste, ruin, objects of anger, consequence of death,"



Evidently you do not know what "begging the question" means! It certainly does NOT mean citing a lexicon definition which defines words in the Bible. This and your other posts constitutes "begging the question". You have your mind made up what you think words and passages mean and you ignore the lexical definitions, and historical evidence I post.



So far you have ignored the full contest of Jesus' teaching and ignored lexicons and historical evidence.

Previous post, from the Jewish Encyclopedia, the Jewish view of eternal punishment of the unrighteous. Click Link!

Previous post citing the Talmud, the teaching of Hillel and Shammai in Israel, at the time of Jesus, teaching on eternal punishment. Click Link!

Previous post Lazarus and the rich man. Link!

Previous post the early church and eternal punishment. Click Link!

Previous post Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker definition of Hades and Gehenna. Click Link!

Begging the Question is a fallacy in which the premises include the claim that the conclusion is true or (directly or indirectly) assume that the conclusion is true.

The claim is that there is eternal torment in Gehenna.
We are discussing this to determine if it is true.
In this discussion, we are assuming the bible is true.

A statement like this is begging the question, "the bible says that the lost are cast into Gehenna, this proves they experience eternal torment."

I will reach the full context of what you are saying, by examining each of your passages in turn.
Lazarus and the Rich Man is one of your passages and I will get to it.

After examining each of the 28 passages that you say address eternal punishment (specifically torture), then we can discuss the Talmud and whatever other proof you want to bring.

I don't want to be the one to burst your bubbble

; however, HELL is a very real place. It scares me to think about it.

Well, we are discussing what the bible says about Hell.
We think, whether we are scared or not. What do you mean by "hell"? Do you mean Sheol, Hades, Gehenna, Tartarus, the Lake of Fire, or something else?

 

[Der Alte]

Begging the Question is a fallacy in which the premises include the claim that the conclusion is true or (directly or indirectly) assume that the conclusion is true.

The claim is that there is eternal torment in Gehenna.
We are discussing this to determine if it is true.
In this discussion, we are assuming the bible is true.

A statement like this is begging the question, "the bible says that the lost are cast into Gehenna, this proves they experience eternal torment."

Since I did not say "the bible says that the lost are cast into Gehenna, this proves they experience eternal torment." Your argument is meaningless! And I said historical and lexical evidence is not begging the question. I have not seen you make a correction to your statement!

Since you are assuming that the Bible is true, you must have some knowledge of what the words in the Bible mean. How can you say the Bible is true when you ignored the meaning of the words in the Bible?

I will reach the full context of what you are saying, by examining each of your passages in turn.
Lazarus and the Rich Man is one of your passages and I will get to it.

After examining each of the 28 passages that you say address eternal punishment (specifically torture), then we can discuss the Talmud and whatever other proof you want to bring.

Thus you are admitting that you are at this time ignoring the full context of what Jesus said! Good let me know when you discuss Luke 16:19-31, Matt 25:31-46, Mar 9: 43:48, John 5:29, etc. and apply the context to all the other verses I listed which you are not now doing.

 

[Timothew]

Since I did not say "the bible says that the lost are cast into Gehenna, this proves they experience eternal torment." Your argument is meaningless! And I said historical and lexical evidence is not begging the question. I have not seen you make a correction to your statement!

It was in the definition you provided:

γεενα In the gospels it is the place of punishment in the next life

Since you are assuming that the Bible is true, you must have some knowledge of what the words in the Bible mean. How can you say the Bible is true when you ignored the meaning of the words in the Bible?

How have I ignored the meaning? Death: not alive,
Destruction: certainly not eternal torture. The main definition of apoleia, which is from your source, is destruction.


Thus you are admitting that you are at this time ignoring the full context of what Jesus said! Good let me know when you discuss Luke 16:19-31, Matt 25:31-46, Mar 9: 43:48, John 5:29, etc. and apply the context to all the other verses I listed which you are not now doing.

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, until these verses are examined. I want to go through your list, one at a time, carefully examining each one to see if they say what you claim. When I finish, you will have to admit that the context does not support the doctrine of eternal torment.