Let's Talk About Hell

[Mr Dave]

That's cuz everyone else is doing the Christmas/Anti-Christmas threads now

Ah the quick ticket to the aforementioned destination State your position on xmas.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ah the quick ticket to the aforementioned destination State your position on xmas.

Man the trenches!

http://www.christianforums.com/t7513895/
Let the War on Christmas...BEGIN!

 

[Der Alte]

Your linked post was saying,

Here are the scriptures I posted on another thread which refute the doctrine of eternal torment.
Matt 7:13

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.​

This says destruction, not eternal torment.

What is the Greek word translated "destruction?" Does it mean "annihilation", "nonexistence," etc. or does it have other lesser meanings? And OBTW I already know the answer.

Matthew 10:28

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.​

​

Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Matt 10:28 does not say the soul will be destroyed. It says only God can destroy the soul. And OBTW the same word, apollumi, as in Matt 7:13

What is the point of us being told the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever if it does not mean lasting suffering, just meaninglessly continuous smoke?

Misrepresenting scripture.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

If those being tormented eventually cease to exist, the smoke is no longer theirs. Also smoke does not ascend forever if the fire ends, at some point it dissipates. Note those being tormented have no rest day or night. A million eons from now God's unchanging word will still say, "they have no rest day nor night."

 

[Timothew]

A million eons from now God's unchanging word will still say "the wages of sin is death."

 

[Der Alte]

A million eons from now God's unchanging word will still say "the wages of sin is death."

So what? How do you reconcile this one out-of-context verse with Rev 14:11, and all these vss, spoken by Jesus, Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.

 

[Timothew]

So what? How do you reconcile this one out-of-context verse with Rev 14:1, and all these vss, spoken by Jesus, Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.

Rev 14:1???
easy enough, those who are ALIVE with Christ will stand with Him. Those who are dead will, interestingly enough, not be able to stand with Him.

Matt 3:12 burn up the chaff? burn up? consume? destroy? in a human sense, cause to be dead?

How do you reconcile your out of context verses with all of these:
Gen 1:1 - Rev 22:21?

 

[Der Alte]

Rev 14:1???
easy enough, those who are ALIVE with Christ will stand with Him. Those who are dead will, interestingly enough, not be able to stand with Him.

Matt 3:12 burn up the chaff? burn up? consume? destroy? in a human sense, cause to be dead?

How do you reconcile your out of context verses with all of these:
Gen 1:1 - Rev 22:21?

Meaningless spam! So what? How do you reconcile this one out-of-context verse with Rev 14:11, and all these vss, spoken by Jesus, Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.

Two posts, back to back, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!

 

[Timothew]

Meaningless spam! So what? How do you reconcile this one out-of-context verse with Rev 14:11, and all these vss, spoken by Jesus, Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.

Two posts, back to back, twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus in the order they occur in the N.T., addressing eternal punishment. Click Link!

Do these verses really address eternal punishment? You said that you had 28 passages addressing eternal punishment. How about the first one?

[1] Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Does this address eternal punishment? Does this say that he will torture the chaff for all eternity?

Can we agree to toss this verse out of the list supporting eternal punishment?

 

[Der Alte]

Do these verses really address eternal punishment? You said that you had 28 passages addressing eternal punishment. How about the first one?

[1] Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.Does this address eternal punishment? Does this say that he will torture the chaff for all eternity?

Can we agree to toss this verse out of the list supporting eternal punishment?

If "chaff" is instantaneously destroyed by fire, do you think it cares whether the fire is unquenchable or not? Here is a trimmed down list, have fun.

[4] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

[5]Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, [i.e. Kingdom of heaven, vs. 21] and few there be that find it.

[7] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[8] Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

[9] Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

When does scripture say the wailing and gnashing of teeth ends?

[10] Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[12] Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.​

See comments on Mark 9:43-48, below.

[14] Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. * * *
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
* * *
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

[15] Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [the kingdom of heaven] yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[…]
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[16] Matt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily, [αμην/amen] I say unto you, I know you not.

[17] Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[…]
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [αιωνιον/aiónion].​

In this passage Jesus calls the sinners, unrepentant, wicked, etc. “cursed.”

10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now, will God’s unchanging word, Jesus, still say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, everlasting punishment?”

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: [εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
[18] Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​

If the unrighteous, in “hades,” eventually leave, or are destroyed the worm would no longer be theirs or any concern to them. Why would Jesus warn his followers about worms, that do not die, three times, if it did not concern them? Was Jesus concerned about the biology of worms, or the eternal souls of his followers?

If those in hell eventually leave, or are destroyed, the unquenched fire would not concern them. Why did Jesus warn his followers about unquenched fire, three times, if it did not concern to them? And if those in hell eventually die or cease to exist why would they care if the fire is not quenched. If “unquenched fire” is irrelevant why did Jesus mention it so many, times?

[19] Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.​

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said, they shall not enter in. This says nothing about death or annihilation.

There is no second chance to receive the Kingdom, after death.

Heb 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”

[20] Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

[21] Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.​

What is the portion of the unbelievers? αιωνιον/aiónion punishment, see Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

[22] Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

[23] Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. [of the kingdom of God.]

[24] Luke 16:22 [. . .] the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But [Jesus said] Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us[sup]4[/sup], that would come from thence.​

[sup]4[/sup] Note, those in “hades,” the place of torment, cannot leave. 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now God’s unchanging word will still say, “neither can they pass to us.”

Scoffers argue it is only a parable, if so, what is the point of the parable? In every legitimate parable, Jesus uses common, every day, events to illustrate or clarify, often unclear, spiritual truth. The only common, every day, events in this story are Lazarus begging and the rich man living high. Everything else occurs after the death of Lazarus and the rich man. What spiritual truth, for the living, is Jesus clarifying, or illustrating, by talking about things that happen after death, that his audience had never experienced?

In all the legitimate parables Jesus uses nonspecific persons, “a certain man,” “a certain king,” etc. In the thousands of years of history, someone said or did the things Jesus mentioned. Somebody, somewhere, lost sheep and coins, and found them, sowed seed, etc.

But Abraham is a specific, historical, person. If Abraham did not actually, in fact, speak to the rich man, in hades, and, literally, say the words, in blue, that Jesus quotes, Jesus is a liar.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 [Jesus said] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[…]
31 [Jesus said] And he [Abraham] said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[25] Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.​

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God, and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. Nothing about death or destruction!

[26] John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,[sup]5[/sup] he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[27] John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit][sup]5[/sup], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​

[sup]5[/sup] Note, is there any scripture, anywhere, showing anyone, ever, being born again, born of water, and the spirit, after death? This says nothing about death or destruction!

[28] John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​

When does Jesus say they are taken out of the fire? How long are they burned in the fire?

See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

 

[brinny]

Man the trenches!

http://www.christianforums.com/t7513895/
Let the War on Christmas...BEGIN!

 

[Timothew]

Originally Posted by Timothew

Do these verses really address eternal punishment? You said that you had 28 passages addressing eternal punishment. How about the first one?

[1] Matthew 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.Does this address eternal punishment? Does this say that he will torture the chaff for all eternity?

Can we agree to toss this verse out of the list supporting eternal punishment?
​

If "chaff" is instantaneously destroyed by fire, do you think it cares whether the fire is unquenchable or not? Here is a trimmed down list, have fun.

Thanks, now you are down to 27 passages addressing eternal punishment. Do you agree? No more of this "28 Passages Addressing Eternal Punishment Click LINK!"

I don't want to address your whole list in one post, it makes the post too long, and the proof is lost in the sea of words. OK, so examining the next passage:

[2] Matthew 5:13 Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.

This is your 2nd passage of the (formerly) 28.
I don't see anything in this passage addressing eternal punishment. Do you agree to eliminate this passage from your list of 27?

 

[Der Alte]

Thanks, now you are down to 27 passages addressing eternal punishment. Do you agree? No more of this "28 Passages Addressing Eternal Punishment Click LINK!"

I don't want to address your whole list in one post, it makes the post too long, and the proof is lost in the sea of words. OK, so examining the next passage:

This is your 2nd passage of the (formerly) 28.
I don't see anything in this passage addressing eternal punishment. Do you agree to eliminate this passage from your list of 27?[/SIZE][/FONT]

Instead of ignoring my post and continuing to try to play gotcha, how about actually addressing my short list. None of the vss. you are trying to address disprove that Jesus clearly teaches eternal punishment.

If "chaff" is instantaneously destroyed by fire, do you think it cares whether the fire is unquenchable or not? Here is a trimmed down list, have fun.

[4] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

[5]Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, [i.e. Kingdom of heaven, vs. 21] and few there be that find it.

[7] Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[8] Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

[9] Matt 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.​

When does scripture say the wailing and gnashing of teeth ends?

[10] Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[12] Matthew 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire.
18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.​

See comments on Mark 9:43-48, below.

[14] Matt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. * * *
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
* * *
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

[15] Matt 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in [the kingdom of heaven] yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
[…]
15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

[16] Matt 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily, [αμην/amen] I say unto you, I know you not.

[17] Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
[…]
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [αιωνιον/aiónion] punishment: but the righteous into life eternal [αιωνιον/aiónion].​

In this passage Jesus calls the sinners, unrepentant, wicked, etc. “cursed.”

10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now, will God’s unchanging word, Jesus, still say, “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, everlasting punishment?”

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: [εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
[18] Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.​

If the unrighteous, in “hades,” eventually leave, or are destroyed the worm would no longer be theirs or any concern to them. Why would Jesus warn his followers about worms, that do not die, three times, if it did not concern them? Was Jesus concerned about the biology of worms, or the eternal souls of his followers?

If those in hell eventually leave, or are destroyed, the unquenched fire would not concern them. Why did Jesus warn his followers about unquenched fire, three times, if it did not concern to them? And if those in hell eventually die or cease to exist why would they care if the fire is not quenched. If “unquenched fire” is irrelevant why did Jesus mention it so many, times?

[19] Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.​

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said, they shall not enter in. This says nothing about death or annihilation.

There is no second chance to receive the Kingdom, after death.

Heb 9:27 “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:”

[20] Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

[21] Luke 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.​

What is the portion of the unbelievers? αιωνιον/aiónion punishment, see Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

[22] Luke 13: 23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

[23] Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. [of the kingdom of God.]

[24] Luke 16:22 [. . .] the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But [Jesus said] Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us[sup]4[/sup], that would come from thence.​

[sup]4[/sup] Note, those in “hades,” the place of torment, cannot leave. 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons times, 10,000 eons from now God’s unchanging word will still say, “neither can they pass to us.”

Scoffers argue it is only a parable, if so, what is the point of the parable? In every legitimate parable, Jesus uses common, every day, events to illustrate or clarify, often unclear, spiritual truth. The only common, every day, events in this story are Lazarus begging and the rich man living high. Everything else occurs after the death of Lazarus and the rich man. What spiritual truth, for the living, is Jesus clarifying, or illustrating, by talking about things that happen after death, that his audience had never experienced?

In all the legitimate parables Jesus uses nonspecific persons, “a certain man,” “a certain king,” etc. In the thousands of years of history, someone said or did the things Jesus mentioned. Somebody, somewhere, lost sheep and coins, and found them, sowed seed, etc.

But Abraham is a specific, historical, person. If Abraham did not actually, in fact, speak to the rich man, in hades, and, literally, say the words, in blue, that Jesus quotes, Jesus is a liar.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 [Jesus said] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[…]
31 [Jesus said] And he [Abraham] said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

[25] Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.​

When a person dies rejecting, cursing, blaspheming, God, and does not receive the Kingdom, Jesus said they shall not enter in. Nothing about death or destruction!

[26] John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born again,[sup]5[/sup] he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[27] John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, [αμην αμην/amen amen] I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit][sup]5[/sup], he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​

[sup]5[/sup] Note, is there any scripture, anywhere, showing anyone, ever, being born again, born of water, and the spirit, after death? This says nothing about death or destruction!

[28] John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.​

When does Jesus say they are taken out of the fire? How long are they burned in the fire?

See Matt 13:49,50; 18:3, 8; 22:14; 25:12; 25:41-46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Luke 13:23-24; 16:26; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, and notes.

 

[Timothew]

The point is that none of your verses say that the unsaved are tortured alive in fire forever.

We can go through them one by one, if you wish.
It's not a game of gotcha.

 

[Der Alte]

The point is that none of your verses say that the unsaved are tortured alive in fire forever.

We can go through them one by one, if you wish.
It's not a game of gotcha.

Yes it is a game of "gotcha" which I have preemptively refuted with credible, verifiable, historical evidence from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Talmud, and early church fathers.

 

[Timothew]

Yes it is a game of "gotcha" which I have preemptively refuted with credible, verifiable, historical evidence from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Talmud, and early church fathers.

ROTFL

28 passages, none of which address eternal punishment, yet said by you to be "evidence."

 

[Der Alte]

28 passages, none of which address eternal punishment, yet said by you to be "evidence."

Since the longer list is too much for you and all you can post is acronyms and smiley faces, I shortened it about a week ago, just for you, and you can't even address the shorter list.

 

[Timothew]

Since the longer list is too much for you and all you can post is acronyms and smiley faces, I shortened it about a week ago, just for you, and you can't even address the shorter list.

I'm willing to go examine your longer list one by one, or your shorter list. It doesn't make any difference to me.
I'll keep the computer acronyms and smileys off if you wish. I didn't know that they bothered you.

Let's start with the 1st item on your shorter list, you've numbered it "4."

Originally Posted by Der Alter

[4] Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
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This passage does not say that the whole body is tortured alive forever. Do you agree with that statement?

 

[Timothew]

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Since the longer list is too much for you and all you can post is acronyms and smiley faces, I shortened it about a week ago, just for you, and you can't even address the shorter list.

Dude, Timothew is offering to go over all your verses one by one.

Why don't you just accept the offer and you and him can get to the truth in a logical manner.

 

[FredVB]

I have many times followed what I could of some of these dialogues even though generally not posting, and when Der Alter had stopped, it concerned me, and having just recently looked, I will say it can be found he was a very frequent poster, many times every day, but his posting history stops December 18 last year. I do not know what it means, whether he is still here in this world with us or not; if he is any intensive care I would express hope for quick recovery. Lack of further response to this thread clearly did not mean there was no answer that could be given. I could not hope to give Der Alter's well-studied expertise. If any still want this last part to be answered, I might try with my own answer, but it will have to be a few days from now, and I would still not post anywhere near as frequently.