Let's Talk About Hell

[Der Alte]

The Righteous, Life is decreed for them.

The Wicked, Destruction destined for them.

The average class, held in balance then incribed for life or inscribed for destruction.

The articles you quote do not support your case.

More deliberate misrepresentation. You quote 3 sentences out-of-context and ignore all the rest.

 

[Timothew]

More deliberate misrepresentation. You quote 3 sentences out-of-context and ignore all the rest.

Wrong

 

[Timothew]

More deliberate misrepresentation. You quote 3 sentences out-of-context and ignore all the rest.

Wrong,
Not out of context.

The wholly righteous are at once inscribed, and life is decreed for them; the entirely wicked are at once inscribed, and destruction destined for them; the average class are held in the balance from New Year's Day till the Day of Atonement; if they prove themselves worthy they are inscribed for life, if not they are inscribed for destruction. Said R. Abhin: Whence this teaching? From the passage [Psalms, lxix. 29]: "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and they shall not be written down with the righteous."

 

[Mikecpking]

More deliberate misrepresentation. You quote 3 sentences out-of-context and ignore all the rest.

Hi Tim,
Der Alter does not accept anything I post from the Jewish encyclopaedia when I argue with him!

 

[Timothew]

Hi Tim,
Der Alter does not accept anything I post from the Jewish encyclopaedia when I argue with him!

The thing is: The Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud were his idea. I didn't even want to go there.

Then when I quote verbatum, it's called a deliberate misrepresentation? Something smells over here.

 

[Pythons]

NO, ZERO, NONE credible, verifiable, historical evidence that this is true!

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
​

That is not logical - a Prot who accepts a council of Jews nearly 100 years after the death of Christ on what equates to the Canon....
...Then claims there is no evidence in support of the Jewish history of purgation of the soul.
...Rejecting the very authority he appeals to on the issue of the Canon.
...LOL

 

[Der Alte]

Hi Tim,
Der Alter does not accept anything I post from the Jewish encyclopaedia when I argue with him!

Right, wrong, or I don't care, the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud represents what the ancient Jews believed and practiced. Unless someone can produce credible, verifiable, historical evidence which refutes these sources I will accept them as reliable.

OTOH I do not accept the Jewish Encyclopedia as reliable sources on the beliefs and practices of Christians. For example the Jewish Encyclopedia cites rabbinical views that "The best of gentiles is worthy of death!", "The issue [offspring] of a gentile is as that of a beast!" And my favorite, "Jesus was a mamzer." (b*stard). There is something seriously wrong with someone's reasoning ability if they cannot see the difference!

A good an analogy might be ask a Palestinian what they believe about their own religion and supreme being, then ask them what the Jews believe about their religion and supreme being!

 

[Der Alte]

The thing is: The Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud were his idea. I didn't even want to go there.

Then when I quote verbatum, it's called a deliberate misrepresentation? Something smells over here.

Yes something most certainly smells around here. Let me illustrate what you are doing with an example from scripture.

The Bible says in Psalm 14 and 53 "There is no God!" I have quoted that exactly, just as you are quoting isolated sentences! But we both know the context is "The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'" Just as you are doing I omitted part of the verse to make it say something it does not say!

If you cannot recognize that, we are done here!

 

[Timothew]

Yes something most certainly smells around here. Let me illustrate what you are doing with an example from scripture.

The Bible says in Psalm 14 and 53 "There is no God!" I have quoted that exactly, just as you are quoting isolated sentences! But we both know the context is "The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'" Just as you are doing I omitted part of the verse to make it say something it does not say!

If you cannot recognize that, we are done here!

You know that's not what I did. If I quote something that you posted, Surely I have to post sentences. I quoted just what the source said. I didn't change the meaning. I posted a little, according to the meaning. I was told it was out of context. Then I posted the paragraph. I was told that ALSO was out of context.

You even told me it was a deliberate misrepresentation when I posted the whole section. And it was the reference that you yourself provided.

I think that you are being a little unfair with the out-of-context claims.

 

[Der Alte]

You know that's not what I did. If I quote something that you posted, Surely I have to post sentences. I quoted just what the source said. I didn't change the meaning. I posted a little, according to the meaning. I was told it was out of context. Then I posted the paragraph. I was told that ALSO was out of context.

You even told me it was a deliberate misrepresentation when I posted the whole section. And it was the reference that you yourself provided.

I think that you are being a little unfair with the out-of-context claims.

Here is one of your posts which I said was out-of-context and which you claim is not.

The Righteous, Life is decreed for them.

The Wicked, Destruction destined for them.

The average class, held in balance then incribed for life or inscribed for destruction.

The articles you quote do not support your case.

You quoted three sentences and said, "The articles you quote do not support your case." Implying that nothing in either article supported what I have been saying. Is that a true statement or is it patently false? Here are several statements from the Jewish Encyclopedia which you say does not support my argument, by deliberately selectively quoting 3 sentences and ignoring these statements.

God says to the angel-prince: I punish the slanderers from above, and I also punish them from below with glowing coals"

It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell

To every individual is apportioned two shares, one in hell and one in paradise. At death, however, the righteous man's portion in hell is exchanged, so that he has two in heaven, while the reverse is true in the case of sinners

They are cast into Gehenna to a depth commensurate with their sinfulness. They say: "Lord of the world, Thou hast done well; Paradise for the pious, Gehenna for the wicked"

But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them

As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews

When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them Isa. xiv. 9-10

the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"

The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11

There will be no Gehenna in the future world, however, for God will take the sun out of its case, and it will heal the pious with its rays and will punish the sinners​

 

[Studious One]

the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"

I do find this one to be quite revealing as to what the Jews taught and believed. It is indeed evident by this quote from the Jewish Encyclopedia that the Jews did in fact believe in the eternal torment of the unrighteous.

 

[godisreal36]

I hate the Idea of Hell. yet the very Idea keeps me out if i heed the warnings. Every word the bible says is true. If it says its flames then its flames. Much like Noah's Ark people just have trouble believing in it, myself being one of them. But it is all true. Maybe we understand it and maybe not. Physics offers the possibility of anything, this space time theory makes sense to me. It shows me how God can be in all places at one time and how he can know the future. Not that i need physics just that it actually helps me understand that which i don't. Then again maybe it's nonsense. Hell is flames, torment. It is also eternal darkness, being separated from God. This i can easily understand. All the bad things all the time without anything good in between is separation from God. That is true torment. I don't understand how God can always exist, yet i cannot understand how he cannot always exist also. We are children looking at our fathers grown up things and cannot understand them. But every word is true. I probably haven't helped but i tried.

In Jesus name may God bless you with more understanding as you seek his knowledge.

 

[Timothew]

Should I continue on with #8 of the 28 passages on eternal torment or has that section of the thread died?

 

[Der Alte]

NO, ZERO, NONE credible, verifiable, historical evidence that this is true!

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.​

That is not logical - a Prot who accepts a council of Jews nearly 100 years after the death of Christ on what equates to the Canon....
...Then claims there is no evidence in support of the Jewish history of purgation of the soul.
...Rejecting the very authority he appeals to on the issue of the Canon.
...LOL

Who are you talking to and what are you talking about? You quoted my post which has nothing to do with any canon, or purgation of the soul!

 

[Der Alte]

Should I continue on with #8 of the 28 passages on eternal torment or has that section of the thread died?

Suit yourself! I see no point in responding to what is basically, "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh Huh," 28 times!

 

[Timothew]

OK, no problem.

Since you can't show that there is eternal torment even one time, there's no reason to go through all 28.

 

[godisreal36]

Ive seen Hell on earth if there is such a thing and the real Hell can't have me. Seen enough already.

 

[Der Alte]

[ . . . ]Luke 16 is a parable, and was based on popular rabbinical teachings of the day which had already been polluted with Greek and Babylonian thought whicgh Jesus did not believe their teachings to be true, but used their own teachings against them. One must use the broad scriptural teachings on teh truth of the death and resurrection and also reject pagan influences.[ . . . ]

Prove it!

 

[Der Alte]

OK, no problem.

Since you can't show that there is eternal torment even one time, there's no reason to go through all 28.

Note how in virtually every post you misrepresent what is posted and/or make blatantly false statements!

When Jesus said,

• "You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.", Matt 5:22
• "thy whole body should be cast into hell," Matt 5:29,
• "And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matt 13:49,
• "cast into everlasting fire," Matt 18:8,
• "Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth," Matt 22:2
• "twofold more the child of hell than yourselves," Matt 23:13
• "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire," Matt 25:41, 46
• "go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" Mar 9:43 - 48, (3X)
• "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth," Luk 13;28,
• "in hell [ . . . ] tormented in this flame . . . place of torment." Luke 16:19-31
• "cast them into the fire, and they are burned," John 15:6

the Jews understood him to be talking about Gehenna/Hades a place prepared by God for the eternal, unending punishment of the unrighteous!

 

[Mikecpking]

Note how in virtually every post you misrepresent what is posted and/or make blatantly false statements!


When Jesus said,

• "You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.", Matt 5:22
• "thy whole body should be cast into hell," Matt 5:29,
• "And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Matt 13:49,
• "cast into everlasting fire," Matt 18:8,
• "Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth," Matt 22:2
• "twofold more the child of hell than yourselves," Matt 23:13
• "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire," Matt 25:41, 46
• "go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" Mar 9:43 - 48, (3X)
• "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth," Luk 13;28,
• "in hell [ . . . ] tormented in this flame . . . place of torment." Luke 16:19-31
• "cast them into the fire, and they are burned," John 15:6

the Jews understood him to be talking about Gehenna/Hades a place prepared by God for the eternal, unending punishment of the unrighteous!

Once again, Gehenna and hades are not the same place and Gehenna is a reference to the Lake of fire....not hell.