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Let's Talk About Hell

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SkyWriting

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They won't get away so easily, in case you didn't know. There will be a judgment. A global and public judgment. All the saved and angels will see. All guilty will be judged. They will pass tremendous shame. Then they will be thrown into a lake of fire, which is quite painful by the way. And other things which I don't remember.

There are many who are shameless.
The are not phased by such possibilities. Public or private.

There are people who feel no pain.
I have a limited amount of this "gift" and my legs are often covered with wounds that occur without my knowledge of this happening. I carry Band-Aids at all times at work. Another interesting aspect of pain is that it it can be forgotten after it's over with. Just ask your mom about this.


Why would any thug, rapist, drug dealer, or killer ( or Sinner) be concerned about experiencing some pain in Hell that is only temporary?
 
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SkyWriting

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And as Brooke Sheilds might say--if you don't have life, you've lost a very important part of your life.

Brooke hit the nail on the head. Life On Earth can be an important part of your total eternal existence. Or maybe you just waste it away (ie, smoking cigarettes).
 
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SkyWriting

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If you actually read what the scripture says instead of just reword it to suit your own theology, you'll notice that both man and beast go to the same place, which is the dust of the earth.

Believers do indeed go to dust, but are resurrected in Jesus. (Also in that bible.)
So both can happen, rather than just the limited view.
 
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LJSGM

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There are many who are shameless.
The are not phased by such possibilities. Public or private.

There are people who feel no pain.
I have a limited amount of this "gift" and my legs are often covered with wounds that occur without my knowledge of this happening. I carry Band-Aids at all times at work. Another interesting aspect of pain is that it it can be forgotten after it's over with. Just ask your mom about this.


Why would any thug, rapist, drug dealer, or killer ( or Sinner) be concerned about experiencing some pain in Hell that is only temporary?

it is because the point is not in the punishment, it is in the reconciliation of humanity, in which the ungodly will be destroyed in order to be taken out of the way and the elect will be restored to God.
 
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martymonster

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Believers do indeed go to dust, but are resurrected in Jesus. (Also in that bible.)
So both can happen, rather than just the limited view.


Oh I'm sorry, I'd hate for you to feel limited by what scripture says!

Why not just throw your bible out if you don't believe what it says?


Here's what happens.

Your born, you die, your resurrected.

I don't think I could make it any simpler than that!
 
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martymonster

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There are many who are shameless.
The are not phased by such possibilities. Public or private.

There are people who feel no pain.
I have a limited amount of this "gift" and my legs are often covered with wounds that occur without my knowledge of this happening. I carry Band-Aids at all times at work. Another interesting aspect of pain is that it it can be forgotten after it's over with. Just ask your mom about this.


Why would any thug, rapist, drug dealer, or killer ( or Sinner) be concerned about experiencing some pain in Hell that is only temporary?


Would you be concerned if I came over to your house and pounded you knee caps with a base ball bat?

After all this life is only temporary.


That is an absolutely rediculous argument.


BTW,

What's that about drug dealer and rapists and the like, do you some how think your better than them?

It wasn't them who Christ upbraided during His ministry, it was the chief priests, the scribes and the pharisees.

You are just as guilty as those people you just used as an example of who should go to Hell.


Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
 
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Der Alte

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Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Can you please explain what this passage means? You said that the entire Bible is a parable and us poor mortals can't understand it without your special, esoteric revelation from the spirit.
 
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The Penitent Man

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Can you please explain what this passage means? You said that the entire Bible is a parable and us poor mortals can't understand it without your special, esoteric revelation from the spirit.

Special, esoteric revelations from the Holy Spirit are actually what is crucial. The Word, if it speaks to you at all, will speak to you through the Holy Spirit. Or so the Spirit has told me ...
 
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Der Alte

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Can you please explain what this passage means? You said that the entire Bible is a parable and us poor mortals can't understand it without your special, esoteric revelation from the spirit.

Special, esoteric revelations from the Holy Spirit are actually what is crucial. The Word, if it speaks to you at all, will speak to you through the Holy Spirit. Or so the Spirit has told me ...

Please read the rest of my argument.The person I was addressing claims that the entire Bible is a parable, it is not to be read in-context, and that the "parable" can't be understood without special revelation from the Holy Spirit and implies that only he has such knowledge. I believe, as a general rule, that God/Jesus say what they mean and mean what they say.
 
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razeontherock

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You are just as guilty as those people you just used as an example of who should go to Hell.

This is the guy that says there is no hell, or it's not forever right? Is your whole line of reasoning already spelled out in this thread and if so can you point me to where? What I really like is the one over in unorthodox theology that says all the koine Greek schools in the time of the Disciples and the following generation taught hell is temporary. Esp seeing as 60 years ago we didn't even know koine Greek existed, how do we all of a sudden get such facts?
 
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The Penitent Man

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Has anyone ever come across the idea that Hell is a real place on earth? That it was modelled on a real geographic location?

How could a Bottomless Pit or an eternally burning Lake of Fire exist in our universe? Phsyicality implies limitations.
 
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Der Alte

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This is the guy that says there is no hell, or it's not forever right? Is your whole line of reasoning already spelled out in this thread and if so can you point me to where? What I really like is the one over in unorthodox theology that says all the koine Greek schools in the time of the Disciples and the following generation taught hell is temporary. Esp seeing as 60 years ago we didn't even know koine Greek existed, how do we all of a sudden get such facts?

Speaking of the ECF here are a few.

Ignatius of Antioch

"Corrupters of families will not inherit the kingdom of God. And if they who do these things according to the flesh suffer death, how much more if a man corrupt by evil teaching the faith of God for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him" (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1–2 [A.D. 110]).

Second Clement

"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).

"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, the righteous, who have done good, and who have endured tortures and have hated the luxuries of life, will give glory to their God saying, ‘There shall be hope for him that has served God with all his heart!’" (ibid., 17:7).

Justin Martyr

"No more is it possible for the evildoer, the avaricious, and the treacherous to hide from God than it is for the virtuous. Every man will receive the eternal punishment or reward which his actions deserve. Indeed, if all men recognized this, no one would choose evil even for a short time, knowing that he would incur the eternal sentence of fire. On the contrary, he would take every means to control himself and to adorn himself in virtue, so that he might obtain the good gifts of God and escape the punishments" (First Apology 12 [A.D. 151]).

"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (ibid., 21).

"[Jesus] shall come from the heavens in glory with his angelic host, when he shall raise the bodies of all the men who ever lived. Then he will clothe the worthy in immortality; but the wicked, clothed in eternal sensibility, he will commit to the eternal fire, along with the evil demons" (ibid., 52).

The Martyrdom of Polycarp

"Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3 [A.D. 155]).

Mathetes

"When you know what is the true life, that of heaven; when you despise the merely apparent death, which is temporal; when you fear the death which is real, and which is reserved for those who will be condemned to the everlasting fire, the fire which will punish even to the end those who are delivered to it, then you will condemn the deceit and error of the world" (Letter to Diognetus 10:7 [A.D. 160]).

Athenagoras

"[W]e [Christians] are persuaded that when we are removed from this present life we shall live another life, better than the present one. . . . Then we shall abide near God and with God, changeless and free from suffering in the soul . . . or if we fall with the rest [of mankind], a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere incidental work, that we should perish and be annihilated" (Plea for the Christians 31 [A.D. 177]).

Theophilus of Antioch

"Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire" (To Autolycus 1:14 [A.D. 181])

Irenaeus

"[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

"The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever" (ibid., 4:28:2).

Tertullian

"After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3 [A.D. 197]).

"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (ibid., 44:12–13).

Hippolytus

"Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them" (Against the Greeks 3 [A.D. 212]).

Minucius Felix

"I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment. . . . Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them" (Octavius 34:12–5:3 [A.D. 226]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life" (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).

Lactantius

"[T]he sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire, the nature of which is different from this fire of ours, which we use for the necessary purposes of life, and which is extinguished unless it be sustained by the fuel of some material. But that divine fire always lives by itself, and flourishes without any nourishment. . . . The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment. . . . Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when [God] shall have judged the righteous, he will also try them with fire" (Divine Institutes 7:21 [A.D. 307]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed. And righteously will God assign this portion to either company; for we do nothing without the body. We blaspheme with the mouth, and with the mouth we pray. With the body we commit fornication, and with the body we keep chastity. With the hand we rob, and by the hand we bestow alms; and the rest in like manner. Since then the body has been our minister in all things, it shall also share with us in the future the fruits of the past" (Catechetical Lectures 18:19 [A.D. 350]).
 
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SkyWriting

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Speaking of the ECF here are a few.
A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire,
(To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).
<snip>


It can all be rephrased as eternal sadness.
Let's Talk About Hell - Page 60 - Christian Forums

Anguish overs ones mistakes can be worse than any physical torment.
 
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daviddub

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Because I know heaven is real, that is where God lives.

Let's just play this out:

My next question would be how do you know God lives in heaven?
I'm supposing you'd say something to the effect that that's what His word says.

Then...what does His word say about hell? Also, it's not that hell burns from some intrinsic flame. It is that Satan, and the beast, all whose names are not written in the Lambs book of life, etc. will be tossed into the LAKE OF FIRE. It's not as much hell that's intrinsically aflame, it is the lake of fire. Indeed hell itself is tossed into the lake of fire. You'll hear all those "theologians" talk about the various definitions of the words translated hell (tartarus, gehenna, sheol, etc) in an attempt to disprove FLAMES...ALL OF IT IS WORTHLESS SPECULATION per Rev 19 v20 and 20 vv10,14,15 The words in each translated "lake" and "fire" are curiously words that happen to mean...um LAKE and FIRE...nothing else.

We supremely underestimate the value of the Son to the Father if we undercut what hell really is. Why would God the Father give His only Eternal Son crucified from the foundation of the world(only the manifestation of which happened roughly 2000 years ago), if hell was just kinda bad, sort of tough, not so fun. Hell will be torment infinitely beyond our present ability to conceive. The truth is that it is irrelevant whether the flames are literal. We have no conception of the type of flames that could exist that effect spirits including Satan himself, so that even if they are literal, we wouldn't know what that really means.
We underestimate the gift which is the gospel if we do not understand the true nature of the torment that would have awaited us. We under value grace if we do not understand the gravity of the Christ's gift.
Also, for those who do not notice that even now if it were not for the grace of God, the reality of our sin and ungodliness would be to us torment beyond conception...for those that do not recognize the true gravity and effect of sin itself, then the conversation about hell is useless to you. You wanna start with the reality of the abomination of sin, which only God can reveal to you by His Spirit.
 
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daviddub

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it is because the point is not in the punishment, it is in the reconciliation of humanity, in which the ungodly will be destroyed in order to be taken out of the way and the elect will be restored to God.

The point is neither. Don't be fooled. More than either of those God says, or references this one idea: "that they may know me, the only true and living God."
Both in mercy, and judgment is God known. Just as His salvation is Eternal, so is His Judgement. If we don't question the eternality of God's salvation, I don't see a biblical reason to question the eternality of His condemnation.
 
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Timothew

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Originally Posted by The Penitent Man
Why is it that no one here is denying the existence of heaven?

mmh.gif

they are! they just haven't realized it yet
biggrin.gif

Which ones?

The ones who say, "He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

or the ones who say, "Come and watch the rotten sinners burn for eternity."

Which of these two groups would you say are claiming that heaven doesn't exist?
 
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LJSGM

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The point is neither. Don't be fooled. More than either of those God says, or references this one idea: "that they may know me, the only true and living God."
Both in mercy, and judgment is God known. Just as His salvation is Eternal, so is His Judgement. If we don't question the eternality of God's salvation, I don't see a biblical reason to question the eternality of His condemnation.

I don't question the eternality of God's condemnation. It depends of what you mean by being condemned. Sodom and Gomorrah were "condemned," that is destroyed by fire.

2 Peter 2:6
if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly
 
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