Let's Talk About Hell

[dlbotelho]

a supposedly loving God who would predestine the majority of humans to go to hell to be tortured forever? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Der Alte]

I don't question the eternality of God's condemnation. It depends of what you mean by being condemned. Sodom and Gomorrah were "condemned," that is destroyed by fire.

2 Peter 2:6
if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly

Did God burn the cites of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes? Are they not an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly? This says nothing either way about eternal punishment.

2Pe 2:6-9
(6) And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
(7) And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
(8) (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds
(9) The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:​

Note vs. 6, refers only to the destruction of S&G in this life, they are reserved unto the day of judgment for further punishment.

 

[Der Alte]

a supposedly loving God who would predestine the majority of humans to go to hell to be tortured forever? Doesn't make sense to me.

Unfortunately God did not ask you, and others, their opinion about judgment.

 

[LJSGM]

Matthew 10
28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

1. Jesus uses kill and destroy interchangably.
2. This verse tells us that only God can destroy/kill the soul after the death of the body.
3. It also tells us that our souls can be killed/destroyed after death, that we are not immortal.
4. It tells us what hell/gehenna does when one is thrown in, that is that the soul is destroyed/killed in the fire.

 

[Der Alte]

Speaking of the ECF here are a few.
A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone
"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5 [A.D. 150]).
"But when they see how those who have sinned and who have denied Jesus by their words or by their deeds are punished with terrible torture in unquenchable fire, (To Demetrian 24 [A.D. 252]).

It can all be rephrased as eternal sadness.
Anguish overs ones mistakes can be worse than any physical torment.

This is the worst kind of dishonesty. I posted fifteen separate writings. You quoted parts of only 3, deliberately truncating them to change the meaning of what was written.

 

[LJSGM]

Here is the true biblical point:

Matthew 13

24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' 29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "

The point is not in the punishment of the weeds, but in taking them out of the picture because they serve no good purpose.

 

[Der Alte]

Here is the true biblical point:

Matthew 13

24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
"The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' 29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "

The point is not in the punishment of the weeds, but in taking them out of the picture because they serve no good purpose.

Anyone can quote 2-3 out-of-context passages and prove almost any view. For a complete Biblical doctrine of God's punishment, see my two back to back posts, in this thread, citing twenty eight passages spoken by Jesus on the eternal punishment of the unrighteous Here!

 

[razeontherock]

Matthew 10
28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

1. Jesus uses kill and destroy interchangably.
2. This verse tells us that only God can destroy/kill the soul after the death of the body.
3. It also tells us that our souls can be killed/destroyed after death, that we are not immortal.
4. It tells us what hell/gehenna does when one is thrown in, that is that the soul is destroyed/killed in the fire.

To say Jesus uses the words interchangeably is to pretend He is flippant on the subject. He said that such post mortem destruction is an eternal fate. Maybe somebody wants to say such words are parables? Ok, but pretending it really means something other than an eternal fate seems futile.

 

[razeontherock]

You know, I've been thinking about this all week. This concept of hell is something that I've had trouble with all of my life. How could god torture someone, but the bible says that god is love?

Well, I think I might understand it now. Hell was created for satan and his demons, not for people. God does not send you to hell, but if you don't believe in god, and you do not love god, then you go there by default because you can't hate god and be in His presence in heaven. It's just not possible.

So, people choose hell for themselves by refusing God because there are only 2 choices, heaven and everything outside of heaven, which is hell.

Now what I really want to know is after you die, is there a second chance? Once you see hell, can you repent and get out of hell?

DING DING DING - we have a winner! This is exactly right. As to your remaining question - "it is appointed to man once to die, and then the Judgment." That and "blessed are you who believe, having not seen."

 

[Timothew]

Originally Posted by dlbotelho

a supposedly loving God who would predestine the majority of humans to go to hell to be tortured forever? Doesn't make sense to me.
​

Unfortunately God did not ask you, and others, their opinion about judgment.

It truly doesn't make sense, and it contradicts what the Bible clearly says.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Notice the bible does not say, "For the wages of sin is eternal torture."

Some Christians say that this is not scary enough, but the invitation is there, to come to Jesus Christ for eternal life.

Anyone can reject this gift. The result is, naturally enough, no eternal life, since whoever has the Son of God has life, and whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

 

[LJSGM]

To say Jesus uses the words interchangeably is to pretend He is flippant on the subject. He said that such post mortem destruction is an eternal fate. Maybe somebody wants to say such words are parables? Ok, but pretending it really means something other than an eternal fate seems futile.

to say that a person uses two words interchangibly is a matter of choice of communication, it does not in anyway imply flippency. I'm not so sure I'm understanding what it is you are trying to say.

 

[Der Alte]

It truly doesn't make sense, and it contradicts what the Bible clearly says.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You have your one out-of-context proof text and your assumptions/presuppositions but you must ignore all these scriptures and more. Matt 3:12; 5:13, 20, 29,-30; 7:13-14; 21-23; 8:12; 10:33, 39-42; 13:49-50; 18:3-4, 8-9, 21:43; 22:2-14; 23:13, 15; 25:11-12, 41, 46; Mark 9:43-48; 10:15; Lk 9:62; 12:45-46; 13:23-24; Luke 16:22-28; 18:17; John 3:3, 5, 18; 15:6.

Notice the bible does not say, "For the wages of sin is eternal torture."

Yes the wages of sin is death. What does that mean? God told Adam that in the day that he ate of the forbidden tree dying he would die, but he continued to live for about 900 hears.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.​

Some Christians say that this is not scary enough, but the invitation is there, to come to Jesus Christ for eternal life.

In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. God, Himself, speaking these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.​

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed and comfoprted.

Ezek 32:18-22 (KJV)
18) Son of man, wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.​

 

[SkyWriting]

This is the worst kind of dishonesty. I posted fifteen separate writings. You quoted parts of only 3, deliberately truncating them to change the meaning of what was written.

No. The worst kind is the intentional kind.

I had no intention of changing the meaning by snipping your well researched post down to a bite size morsel.

ALL mentions of "Torment" can be understood as "Sadness in response to the Truth" or "Anguish over decisions made".

 

[SkyWriting]

So Hell is just full of emo people?

All who are dead have just thoughts and emotions left.
No toys, or "comfort food" to munch on.

 

[SkyWriting]

It is because the point is not in the punishment, it is in the reconciliation of humanity, in which the ungodly will be destroyed in order to be taken out of the way and the elect will be restored to God.

That is not a bad answer at all.
It's the best counter to my argument I've found.
Thanks for the food-4-thought.

 

[SkyWriting]

Did God burn the cites of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes? Are they not an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly? This says nothing either way about eternal punishment.
<snip>

Reality ALWAYS has something to say about the way God works.
The lack of "eternal punishment" seems a valid point.
Unless you consider destruction to be an eternal punishment itself.
Seems valid.

 

[SkyWriting]

Would you be concerned if I came over to your house and pounded you knee caps with a base ball bat?

My legs are particularly insensitive to pain. So I'll still poke your eyes out before you know it.

After all this life is only temporary. That is an absolutely ridiculous argument.

BTW,
What's that about drug dealer and rapists and the like, do you some how think your better than them?...<snip>

Sorry if I hit too close to home. Any person you know will work for the illustration, but specifics are easier to make a point with.

 

[SkyWriting]

"Punishment" is the word the Bible uses, that is the word I use. When God punishes the disobedient for not obeying his commandments, that is NOT cause and effect. Because God can and does withhold punishment for those who repent. If I accidentally hit my thumb with a hammer it will bruise and swell up, each and every time, that is cause and effect.

That is incorrect. It might not bruise it, it might not swell.
Sinners live the same lives repentant or not.

If they don't repent, they don't get God and land in Hell. Cause and effect.

 

[SkyWriting]

Timothew, martymonster, and others argue from the perspective that passages from Ecclesiastes determine that death means no more consciousness, and souls will not experience suffering for any more than briefly, and passages saying otherwise must be interpreted "spiritually", with another meaning to be understood. Sky Writing, Duckybill, and Der Ater particularly, and others have shown a number of passages that would show that souls of the unsaved will suffer perpetually,
<snip>

Mark 3 29"but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”

Matthew 25 46"And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Revelation 20 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Revelation 14 9 ...“If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
<snip>

I believe
"eternal condemnation"
"everlasting punishment"
"tormented day and night"
"the smoke of their torment"
all refers to the regret over decisions made due to not trusting God and having faith in self or man or nature instead. Regret, anguish, torment, all meaning the same concept. A pretty suitable punishment for unrepentant Sin.

 

[Der Alte]

I believe
"eternal condemnation"
"everlasting punishment"
"tormented day and night"
"the smoke of their torment"
all refers to the regret over decisions made due to not trusting God and having faith in self or man or nature instead. Regret, anguish, torment, all meaning the same concept. A pretty suitable punishment for unrepentant Sin.

There is NO, ZERO, NONE evidence for what you "believe" the words mean! There are specific Greek words for "regret" and "anguish," etc. Jesus did NOT say those words! The NT writers did NOT write those words! Also "torment" and "punishment" do NOT mean "regret" or "anguish!" You are trying to reinterpret scripture to make it line up with your preconceived ideas instead of basing your beliefs on what scripture actually says.