Let's Talk About Hell (6)

createdtoworship · Apr 15, 2012

he-man said:
It is those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ; who are not allowed to see the face of God forever, but are forever destroyed.

And NOW the rest of the story...Jude 1:12-15 (ESV)
12 These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted;

13 wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones,

15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

My Friend, First of all the discriptions of hell are symbolical of the grave and you will not literally burn up, it is symbolical of the grave being a place of eternal destruction for unbelievers, those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ will simply cease to exist.
Job 12:9-10 (YLT)
9 `Who hath not known in all these, That the hand of Jehovah hath done this?

10 In whose hand is the breath of every living thing, And the spirit of all flesh of man.'

2Th 2:8 And then shall the wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall quash with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
John 12:25 He that loves his life shall lose it; and he that hates his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Prov 127) When your terror comes like a storm,
And your destruction comes like a whirlwind,
When distress and anguish come upon you.
(28) " Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.
(29) Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD,
(30) They would have none of my counsel And despised my every rebuke
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

every day on the way to work I pass by my old car that has been forever destroyed (beyond repair at the junkyard). It still exists though, I can see it if you would, through the chain link fences. Hell will be similar, always being destroyed and forever being awake to feel it and see it.

secondly, to the sinner unsaved who commits suicide from depression, is death and destruction supposed to scare them? Is death terrifying to a suicidal? No there must be something more after death

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Matthew 10:28
A car goes to the junkyard and is "destroyed." It doesn't mean it ceases to exist. That answers 90% of your verses you just posted.

Secondly, The beast and false prophet are in hell a thousand years. will post next.

thirdly, here is the real scriptures in case you forgot what happens to the wicked at death. It is found below as being defined as ETERNAL

Eternal Fire
Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Note that the same word is used for eternal Heaven and eternal Hell.

Eternal Punishment
Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Fourthly, how does one undergo eternal punishment if they are simply destroyed at the end and not conscious?

Fifthly, how does one undergo eternal fire if the fire simply goes out when the soul is consumed? Were Lazarus and the rich man consumed in fire (Luke 16:19-31)? Were the beast and the false prophet? The answer to both is no.

If you start to question the word eternal:

ETERNAL IS LITERALLY "AION" WHICH MEANS "ETERNAL AGE" IN 99% OF THE USAGES

IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH AION MEANING ETERNAL AND BELIEVE IT IS A TEMPORARY AGE THEN....

there are several problems when one defines Aion as only a temporary "age" and not as "eternal"

If and only if, "aion" is temporary then the following assumptions must be true

The glory of God is temporary (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, Revelation 22:5, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, Galatians 1:5, Romans 1:23 and Philippians 4:20)

The righteousness of God is also temporary, which is implying that God is a sinner! (contradicts: 1 Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1 Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, John 12:34, John 14:16 and 2Corinthians 9:9)

God lives only temporarily, God eventually dies. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)

God's Kingdom is temporary, (contradicts: Revelation 22:5, Daniel 7:18, Jude 1:25, Matthew 6:13, and Ephesians 1:21)

God is only wise temporarily, God is apparently unwise later on. (contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, Romans 16:27 and Jude 1:25)

God is incorruptible temporarily, (contradicts: 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, 2Corinthians 9:9 and Romans 1:23)

God is not immortal, God eventually dies.
(contradicts: 1Timothy 1:17, 1Timothy 6:16, 1Peter 1:23, Jude 1:25, Revelation 10:6, and Matthew 6:13)

God abide's only temporarily, (contradicts: 1Peter 1:23, John 12:34 and John 14:16)

VERSE LIST
1Timothy 1:17 Now unto the King eternal[aion], immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.
1Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they (his servants---Rev. 22:3) shall reign for ever[aion] and ever[aion].
Daniel 7:18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.
1Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible(1 Cor. 15:52), by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever[aion].
Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever[aion]. Amen.
Revelation 10:6 "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are,..."
1John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever[aion].
Matthew 6:13 "...For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever[aion]. Amen."
John 12:34 "...that Christ abideth for ever[aion]:..."
John 14:16 "...the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever[aion];..."
Romans 1:23 "...And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God..."
Romans 1:25 "...the Creator, who is blessed for ever[aion]. Amen."
Romans 9:5 "... Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever[aion]. Amen."
Romans 16:27 "To God only wise, [be] glory through Jesus Christ for ever[aion]..."
2Corinthians 9:9 "...his righteousness remaineth for ever[aion]."
Galatians 1:5 To whom [be] glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.
Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
Ephesians 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Philippians 4:20 Now unto God and our Father [be] glory for ever[aion] and ever[aion]. Amen.
__________________

createdtoworship · Apr 15, 2012

I have posted this before but no one wants to answer with a rebuttal....RE:Hell

the beast and the false prophet are in hell a thousand years in the Revelation. They will be tossed in before the millennium and abide through the end of the 1000 years when Satan is thrown in.

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:2-3
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:7-8a
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth

AFTER 1000 YEARS Satan was loosed and deceived the nations.....then

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So the Beast and the False prophet were in the Lake of Fire for 1000 years without annihilating, that's interesting.

Noxot · Apr 15, 2012

apostolic34 said:
Hi. Very well said, and you say what so many are saying right now. It is indeed hard to believe all of these things about God. I don't want you to be upset about what I'm going to say, but just think about it. God is Love. John says so and the Bible attests to it all the way through. It is his nature. It's who He is from cover to cover. If you want proof of it in the OT read Jeremiah 18: 1-6. It is so awesome that, as His people, we are in His hand and he is shaping us. We can never be lost when we stay with Him.

Now some bad news (not for us, but for those that do't know God) - God is also righteous. This is also His nature and He also shows this from cover to cover and we can't get around it.
I'm going to suggest a book for you to read that addresses these concerns you have called "Erasing Hell" by Francis Chan. Francis struggled with the same things you do and eventually had to come to terms with a LOT of things. He didn't like it, and I don't like it either. But certain things about God and His nature are true. Just consider some of these things.
Peace.

my argument is that men do not understand the holiness of God and that humans do not understand the righteous of God. the righteous of men is utter filth and this is what i see people applying to God. seriously, men put God into a box. a tiny, filthy box.

I believe that God gave me his heart. so then i have to ask, why do people think that my Lord is a monster? because they keep saying he is righteous and so he has to make other people suffer for being himself. that is weird. why would people think that the righteousness of God and the holiness of God are cutoff from the Love of God? is God not one? it must be that all things that describe God are of the same thing, namely "God".

so it must be that the righteousness of God, the wrath of God, and all thing of God, are the same cause and movement. now the best thing that i know that describes God is "only God is good" and "God is love". and also that God is not complex, but he is "simple". i guess another word for simple could be "Holy".

so then, all of God is God and so his actions can not go against his very character of who he is. therefore i conclude that the so-called righteousness of God that humans often throw on Him like a filthy rag, is nothing more than slander and ignorance of who God is. now if what i said is true, then the more people believe wicked opinions about God, the more and more they are going to be in darkness of who God really is.

you can't just believe in wicked things about God and then expect to see who God really is. I myself am still getting out of all the terrible assumptions that i have made about him in the past. and I wish for others to be free too, so that they may be all the closer to God.

anyone can tell me to go read something in the bible about God but it is only the Spirit of God that can really tell me what he means. but people think they know God. yet they are called "sinners" by God. even the most righteous men on earth repent when they see God. so how is it that men think they have God so figured out? and why do i think that i know better than the common mass of christian believers when it concerns the judgement of God?

a wicked humility is the one who bows down to lies and error. i refuse to submit to wicked opinions about God. I was taught from my youth that the scriptures are very hard to understand. so why is it that all the christians know so much about God and yet to me all they seem to do is slander His good character.

almost every single christian believes that god is either gonna delete people in hell or is gonna make them suffer forever in hell. what is a more obvious sign that the devil decieveth the entire world?

Soulgazer · Apr 15, 2012

Soulgazer said:
Noxot is perfectly reasonable. It was the religious that Jesus called snakes and vipers. Paul said that "even to this day" which I guess could possibly mean even to this day "whenever Moses is read, a veil is over their faces". Apologist write that he was referring to the Jewish religion, in keeping with catholicism. However, if we look closely, he was writing not against the Jewish religion, but those Jewish Christians who could not let go of the Prophets. We see that even today, people get upset when the Ten commandments are taken down in federal buildings. However, as a Christian, I believe we should be more alarmed, and even ashamed, that they were ever placed there instead of the beatitudes.

An anonymous student of Paul wrote " What is (the meaning of) this mystery? John was begotten by means of a womb worn with age, but Christ passed through a virgin's womb. <> Why, then do you (pl.) err and not seek after these mysteries, which were prefigured for our sake? "

Bump.

ImaginaryDay · Apr 15, 2012

Noxot-I can see that you are very angry with the church and you've been hurt. I'm sorry that you have taken their slights personally. The church is full of sinful humans who make sinful choices. Many of these choices have obviously affected you.
But again the character of God does not change. He is a God of love and of righteousness. You CANNOT have one without the other. While you are off in the clouds enjoying your heavenly bliss, believing that love conquers all, the truth is that there are some that the love of God just will not reach. Not because God is a monster, but because the heart of MAN is hard against God. And in His righteousness, God WILL NOT accept this but will judge that man, whoever he is.
This is a hard truth, but none the less true. I hope you will reconsider the book I suggested. Peace.

x141 · Apr 15, 2012

Is man's sacrifice in the garden of eden, where death and sin passed on to all greater than God's sacrifice of Life? If it is, were all in trouble, and the lake of fire will be a place we can constently see to remind us of who it is that we serve.

x141 · Apr 15, 2012

gradyll said:
I have posted this before but no one wants to answer with a rebuttal....RE:Hell

the beast and the false prophet are in hell a thousand years in the Revelation. They will be tossed in before the millennium and abide through the end of the 1000 years when Satan is thrown in.

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:2-3
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:7-8a
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth

AFTER 1000 YEARS Satan was loosed and deceived the nations.....then

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So the Beast and the False prophet were in the Lake of Fire for 1000 years without annihilating, that's interesting.

We make the book of revelation into that of an image of a man and His kingdom into a kingdom that is made with hands. With our soul we try to decifer Truth when the moon has no light/life of itself. The son/Christ is being revealed in us and to this all scripture speaks.

Noxot · Apr 15, 2012

apostolic34 said:
Noxot-I can see that you are very angry with the church and you've been hurt. I'm sorry that you have taken their slights personally. The church is full of sinful humans who make sinful choices. Many of these choices have obviously affected you.
But again the character of God does not change. He is a God of love and of righteousness. You CANNOT have one without the other. While you are off in the clouds enjoying your heavenly bliss, believing that love conquers all, the truth is that there are some that the love of God just will not reach. Not because God is a monster, but because the heart of MAN is hard against God. And in His righteousness, God WILL NOT accept this but will judge that man, whoever he is.
This is a hard truth, but none the less true. I hope you will reconsider the book I suggested. Peace.

read your own words and see how you just slandered God.

" the truth is that there are some that the love of God just will not reach. "

really? is this the truth? or is this a lie. you are the one who needs the chains off him. you are the one saying God can not reach.

do you not see how foolish those words are? do you not see that you are in a box and that you just tried to put God in a box? get out of your labyrinth because it is man-made.

how do you think I could ever be in bliss if I thought God was going to let some of his babies die? did you know we are all his babies? do you think a mother is going to kill her own babies? do you think a mother is going to let her babies suffer forever in some kind of oven?

yet men apply those things to God. get out of this wickedness and repent.

don't you see that God is not like men, it is men who say that God is going to not save all. foolish, vile, wicked men. blind sinners. confused little children.

your perceptions are killing you and keeping you from seeing God. this is a cruel gate of hades and you ought to come to the gate of the daughter of zion and proclaim what i am rather than what you are proclaiming. you can not even see that what you are saying is from the gates of hades.

come and drink the jordan, it will make you better. stop drinking the nile, it is sick water, it will make you sick.

x141 · Apr 15, 2012

There even something's that are to big for God. Now there's a thought that exalt's itself above the knowledge of God. This is the one that is lost. Truly his ways are past finding out.

he-man · Apr 15, 2012

gradyll said:
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."Matthew 10:28

G622 ἀπόλλυμι apollumi From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully
Destroy In the grave /hell.

Exactly, fear Him who will eternally not allow you to see His face.

gradyll said:
Secondly, The beast and false prophet are in hell a thousand years.

Death and dying is stopped for a period of time.

gradyll said:
thirdly,Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels. Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might, [DARBY]

gradyll said:
Fourthly, how does one undergo eternal punishment if they are simply destroyed at the end and not conscious?

not conscious? You just answered your own question:

Psa 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

1Sa 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

10 The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.

gradyll said:
Fifthly, how does one undergo eternal fire if the fire simply goes out when the soul is consumed? Were Lazarus and the rich man consumed in fire (Luke 16:19-31)? Were the beast and the false prophet? The answer to both is no.

Luk 16:26 And in all this, between us and you there is a great hiatus shored up: so that they which would to obtain from on this side to you is not possible; neither can they cross over from that place to us.

Luk 16:26 και εν πασι τουτοις μεταξυ ημων και υμων χασμα μεγα εστηρικται οπως οι θελοντες διαβηναι ενθεν προς υμας μη δυνωνται μηδε εκειθεν προς ημας διαπερωσιν [GNT]

You must mean The parable of Dives and Lazarus and where the beast and the false prophet are symbolical of Death and dying and is stopped for a period of time.

createdtoworship · Apr 15, 2012

he-man said:
G622 ἀπόλλυμι apollumi From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully
Destroy In the grave /hell.

Exactly, fear Him who will eternally not allow you to see His face. Death and dying is stopped for a period of time.
2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might, [DARBY]
not conscious? You just answered your own question:

Psa 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

1Sa 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

10 The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.
Luk 16:26 And in all this, between us and you there is a great hiatus shored up: so that they which would to obtain from on this side to you is not possible; neither can they cross over from that place to us.

Luk 16:26 και εν πασι τουτοις μεταξυ ημων και υμων χασμα μεγα εστηρικται οπως οι θελοντες διαβηναι ενθεν προς υμας μη δυνωνται μηδε εκειθεν προς ημας διαπερωσιν [GNT]

You must mean The parable of Dives and Lazarus and where the beast and the false prophet are symbolical of Death and dying and is stopped for a period of time.

PSALM 37:9, 34When the wicked are cut off, are they annihilated?
PROBLEM: The psalmist affirms that evildoers shall be cut off. Elsewhere (Ps. 73:27; Prov. 21:28), it says they will perish (see comments on 2 Thes. 1:9). But, does being cut off forever mean they will be annihilated?
SOLUTION: Being cut off does not mean to be annihilated. If it did, then the Messiah would have been annihilated when He died, since the same word (karath) is used of the death of the Messiah (in Dan. 9:26). But, we know that Christ was not annihilated, but lives on forever after His death (cf. Rev. 1:18; also see comments on 2 Thes. 1:9).

Geisler, Norman L. ; Howe, Thomas A.: When Critics Ask : A Popular Handbook on Bible Difficulties. Wheaton, Ill. : Victor Books, 1992, S. 237

EPHESIANS 2:1How can a person believe if he or she is dead in sins?
PROBLEM: The Bible repeatedly calls on the unbeliever to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved (Acts 16:31). However, this passage declares that unbelievers are dead in their sins, and dead people cannot do anything, including believe.
SOLUTION: Death in the Bible is not to be understood as annihilation, but as separation. Isaiah said, Your iniquities have separated you from your God (Isa. 59:2). If death were annihilation, then the second death would be eternal annihilation, but the Bible declares that the lost will be consciously separated from God, as was the rich man in hell (Luke 16), as will be the beast and false prophet who will be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev. 20:10). Indeed, they were cast alive into the lake of fire at the beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Christ (Rev. 19:20), and they were still alive at the end of the 1,000 years (20:10). So, the second death is eternal conscious separation from Christ.
Furthermore, believers die physically, but their souls survive death and are consciously in the presence of God. Paul said, absent from the body and present with the Lord (2 Cor. 5:8). And he went on to say, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better (Phil. 1:23).
Likewise, spiritual death is also separation from God, not annihilation. Adam and Eve, for example, died spiritually the moment they ate the forbidden fruit (Gen. 3:6; cf. Rom. 5:12), yet they were still alive and could hear Gods voice speaking to them (Gen. 3:10). So, whereas the image of God in fallen man is effaced, it is not erased. It is marred, but not destroyed. Thus, unsaved persons can hear, understand the Gospel, and believe it to be regenerated or made alive in a spiritual sense (Eph. 2:89; Titus 3:57).

Geisler, Norman L. ; Howe, Thomas A.: When Critics Ask : A Popular Handbook on Bible Difficulties. Wheaton, Ill. : Victor Books, 1992, S. 475

2 THESSALONIANS 1:9Will the wicked be annihilated or suffer conscious punishment forever?
PROBLEM: In some passages of Scripture, like this one, it speaks of the wicked being destroyed by God, suffering the second death (Rev. 20:14), or going to perdition (2 Peter 3:7). Yet in other places, it speaks of them suffering conscious torment (e.g., Luke 16:2228). Will unsaved persons be annihilated, or will they consciously suffer forever?
SOLUTION: Destruction does not mean annihilation here, otherwise it would not be everlasting destruction. Annihilation only takes an instant, and it is over. If someone undergoes everlasting destruction, then they have to have everlasting existence.
Furthermore, death does not mean annihilation, but separation. Adam and Eve died spiritually the moment they sinned, yet they still existed and could hear Gods voice (Gen. 2:17; cf. 3:10). Likewise, before one is saved, he is dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1), and yet he is still in Gods image (Gen. 1:27; cf. 9:6; James 3:9) and is called on to believe (Acts 16:31) and to repent (Acts 17:30) and be saved.
Likewise, when the wicked are said to go into perdition (2 Peter 3:7), and Judas is called the son of perdition (John 17:12), it does not mean they will be annihilated. The word perdition (apōleia) simply means to perish or to come to ruin. But junk cars have perished in the sense of having been ruined. But they are still cars, ruined as they may be, and they are still in the junk yard. In this connection, Jesus spoke of hell as a junk yard or dump where the fire would not cease and where a persons resurrected body would not be consumed (see comments on Mark 9:48).
Finally, there are several lines of evidence that support the everlasting consciousness of the lost. First, the rich man who died and went to hell was in conscious torment (Luke 16:2228), and there is absolutely no indication in the text that it was ever going to cease.
Second, Jesus spoke repeatedly of the people in hell as weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt. 8:12; 22:13; 24:51; 25:30), which indicates they were conscious.
Third, hell is said to be of the same duration as heaven, namely, everlasting (Matt. 25:41).
Fourth, the fact that their punishment is everlasting indicates that they too must be everlasting. One cannot suffer punishment, unless a person exists to be punished (2 Thes. 1:9).
Fifth, the beast and the false prophet were thrown alive into the lake of fire at the beginning of the 1,000 years (Rev. 19:20), and they were still there, conscious and alive, after the 1,000 years (Rev. 20:10).
Sixth, the Scriptures affirm that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev. 20:10). But there is no way to experience torment forever and ever without being conscious for ever and ever.
Seventh, Jesus repeatedly referred to hell as a place where the fire is not quenched (Mark 9:48), where the very bodies of the wicked will never die (cf. Luke 12:45). But it would make no sense to have everlasting flames and bodies without any souls in them to experience the torment.
Eighth, the same word used to describe the wicked perishing in the OT (abad) is used to describe the righteous perishing (see Isa. 57:1; Micah 7:2). The same word is used to describe things that are merely lost, but then later found (Deut. 22:3), which proves that lost does not here mean go out of existence. So, if perish means to annihilate, then the saved would have to be annihilated too. But we know they are not.
Ninth, it would be contrary to the created nature of human beings to annihilate them, since they are made in Gods image and likeness, which is everlasting (Gen. 1:27). For God to annihilate His image in man would be to attack the reflection of Himself.
Tenth, annihilation would be demeaning both to the love of God and to the nature of human beings as free moral creatures. It would be as if God said to them, I will allow you to be free only if you do what I say! If you dont, then I will snuff out your very freedom and existence! This would be like a father telling his son he wanted him to be a doctor, and, when he chose instead to be a park ranger, the father shot him! Eternal suffering is an eternal testimony to the freedom and dignity of humans, even unrepentant humans.

Geisler, Norman L. ; Howe, Thomas A.: When Critics Ask : A Popular Handbook on Bible Difficulties. Wheaton, Ill. : Victor Books, 1992, S. 493

Soulgazer · Apr 15, 2012

Wow...that is a strange interpretation of being "dead in their sins".

This is the way Philip put it:

The slave seeks only to be free, but he does not hope to acquire the estate of his master. But the son is not only a son but lays claim to the inheritance of the father. Those who are heirs to the dead are themselves dead, and they inherit the dead. Those who are heirs to what is living are alive, and they are heirs to both what is living and the dead. The dead are heirs to nothing. For how can he who is dead inherit? If he who is dead inherits what is living he will not die, but he who is dead will live even more.

A Gentile does not die, for he has never lived in order that he may die. He who has believed in the truth has found life, and this one is in danger of dying, for he is alive. Since Christ came, the world has been created, the cities adorned, the dead carried out. When we were Hebrews, we were orphans and had only our mother, but when we became {Christians}, we had both father and mother.

<>

Light and Darkness, life and death, right and left, are brothers of one another. They are inseparable. Because of this neither are the good good, nor evil evil, nor is life life, nor death death. For this reason each one will dissolve into its earliest origin. But those who are exalted above the world are indissoluble, eternal.

<>

Glass decanters and earthenware jugs are both made by means of fire. But if glass decanters break, they are done over, for they came into being through a breath. If earthenware jugs break, however, they are destroyed, for they came into being without breath.

ImaginaryDay · Apr 15, 2012

Noxot said:
read your own words and see how you just slandered God.

" the truth is that there are some that the love of God just will not reach. "

really? is this the truth? or is this a lie. you are the one who needs the chains off him. you are the one saying God can not reach.

The Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9:22 -
"To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some".

Even he recognizes that not all will be reached. Is he also a liar? Or is it you that is mistaken and doesn't like to hear the truth?

If it's the second, then I have another suggestion for you that you might like more -
"Love Wins" by Rob Bell. You'll love it. Peace.

he-man · Apr 15, 2012

gradyll said:
PSALM 37:9, 34—When the wicked are cut off, are they annihilated?
PROBLEM: The psalmist affirms that “evildoers shall be cut off.” Elsewhere (Ps. 73:27; Prov. 21:28), it says they will perish (see comments on 2 Thes. 1:9). But, does being cut off forever mean they will be annihilated?
SOLUTION: Being “cut off” does not mean to be annihilated. If it did, then the Messiah would have been annihilated when He died, since the same word (karath) is used of the death of the Messiah (in Dan. 9:26). But, we know that Christ was not annihilated, but lives on forever after His death (cf. Rev. 1:18; also see comments on 2 Thes. 1:9).

Better check the Hebrew even the sentence itself suggests that it is temporary:
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be amputated, but not for himself: and the people of the ruler that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
יכרת
H3772 to fell; cut, amputate; make an agreement
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The Romans, who under Titus, after the expiration of the 70 weeks, destroyed the temple and the city, and dispersed the Jews. [TSK]

:doh:

not conscious? You just answered your own question:

Psa 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

1Sa 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

10 The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.

Originally Posted by gradyll

Fifthly, how does one undergo eternal fire if the fire simply goes out when the soul is consumed? Were Lazarus and the rich man consumed in fire (Luke 16:19-31)? Were the beast and the false prophet? The answer to both is no.

Luk 16:26And in all this, between us and you there is a great hiatus shored up: so that they which would to obtain from on this side to you is not possible; neither can they cross over from that place to us.

Luk 16:26 και εν πασι τουτοις μεταξυ ημων και υμων χασμα μεγα εστηρικται οπως οι θελοντες διαβηναι ενθεν προς υμας μη δυνωνται μηδε εκειθεν προς ημας διαπερωσιν [GNT]

You must mean The parable of Dives and Lazarus and where the beast and the false prophet are symbolical of Death and dying and is stopped for a period of time.

Noxot · Apr 15, 2012

apostolic34 said:
The Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9:22 -
"To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some".

Even he recognizes that not all will be reached. Is he also a liar? Or is it you that is mistaken and doesn't like to hear the truth?

If it's the second, then I have another suggestion for you that you might like more -
"Love Wins" by Rob Bell. You'll love it. Peace.

I used to be so offended by rob bell lol. really i'm not looking to have itching ears or anything like that.

yes save some. but that does not mean that all will not be saved. this is just one age, a very important one no less. it is called a jubilee, whatever kind of mystery that is. something very important though, I think everyone should try to cling to God as much as possible. I have no clue what will be different when the transformation of this age happens. i just know that I would not want to spend another age in this kind of blindness and weakness. that would be hell enough... need to be with God more, that is all that matters.

the only thing worth doing, if you can see it, is to please God and to to be as close to God as possible. I don't get why God hides all his wisdom so much in this age. maybe it is to test the hearts of men, I dunno! this world is one giant similtude and dissimilitude. I just want better sight, more and more closeness with God, that alone is torments if you find out how much you kept yourself away from God. how much more when God ends this age and say "ok something new and for you this and you that?" what if you don't get as close to god as you want when you see Him? its not good, you need to be as close as you can to him. the evil man will not look at God and say "I did not want" the evil man will be like "please god please give me something of you" ofc God does, that poor man is injured and God will heal him. not all is plain in this world, i don't get the plan of God yet... yeah I dunno why I just need to be with him... does anyone else feel this way? all that is needed is YAH only. if you are not wanting God only, something is defect in you honestly, only God matters. i'm not perfect at all, i'm a fool that just wants out of this place.

seriously, our very soul that we have is a curse and filthy rag. we are so defective, we really need to forsake all and follow Him to gain eternal life. eternal life is to know God. not many people at all make it to be able to say plainly "I have the soul of Christ" we are just worthless really. but with God all things are possible. it is good to be worthless, so that God may build us up.

sins are very very very bad, they keep you blind and away from Christ. universal salvation is just, not a excuse at all to sin one iota. you keep sinning, you keep being cut off from God. only God can provide the remedy.

createdtoworship · Apr 15, 2012

"Love Wins" by Rob Bell (on Hell)

reviews (negative)

Baptist Press - Rob Bell book 'Love Wins' stirs controversy, denies core Christian beliefs - News with a Christian Perspective

even liberal theologians condemn new book...
Mark Driscoll Responds to Rob Bell Controversy on Hell

he-man · Apr 16, 2012

gradyll said:
"Love Wins" by Rob Bell (on Hell)

reviews (negative)

Baptist Press - Rob Bell book 'Love Wins' stirs controversy, denies core Christian beliefs - News with a Christian Perspective

even liberal theologians condemn new book...
Mark Driscoll Responds to Rob Bell Controversy on Hell

In recent days, Bell has denied he is a universalist, but his book says otherwise. Technically, Bell may be more rightly defined as an "inclusivist," which is a cousin of universalism and teaches that people who don't even know Christ -- including Muslims and Hindus -- will nevertheless, unconsciously, be saved through Christ. But on other pages of his book, Bell seems to make clear universalistic arguments.

"From a pastoral perspective, this is the very definition of a wolf in sheep's clothing," Denny Burk, dean of Boyce College in Louisville, Ky., wrote on his blog in reference to Bell's denials.

Noxot · Apr 16, 2012

Jesus Christ is a wolf in sheeps clothing too, just your box won't let you see it, mr Denny Burk.

createdtoworship · Apr 16, 2012

he-man said:
Better check the Hebrew even the sentence itself suggests that it is temporary:
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be amputated, but not for himself: and the people of the ruler that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
יכרת
H3772 to fell; cut, amputate; make an agreement
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The Romans, who under Titus, after the expiration of the 70 weeks, destroyed the temple and the city, and dispersed the Jews. [TSK]

not conscious? You just answered your own question:

Psa 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

1Sa 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.

10 The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed.

Originally Posted by gradyll
Fifthly, how does one undergo eternal fire if the fire simply goes out when the soul is consumed? Were Lazarus and the rich man consumed in fire (Luke 16:19-31)? Were the beast and the false prophet? The answer to both is no.

Luk 16:26And in all this, between us and you there is a great hiatus shored up: so that they which would to obtain from on this side to you is not possible; neither can they cross over from that place to us.

Luk 16:26 και εν πασι τουτοις μεταξυ ημων και υμων χασμα μεγα εστηρικται οπως οι θελοντες διαβηναι ενθεν προς υμας μη δυνωνται μηδε εκειθεν προς ημας διαπερωσιν [GNT]

You must mean The parable of Dives and Lazarus and where the beast and the false prophet are symbolical of Death and dying and is stopped for a period of time.

nothing stating the cut off was temporary, in Daniel 9 anyways.

createdtoworship · Apr 17, 2012

Timothew said:
Annihilationism is the view that whoever and whatever cannot be redeemed by God is ultimately put out of existence. Sentient beings do not suffer eternally, as the traditional view of hell teaches.Im strongly inclined toward the annihilationist position. The reason is that it strikes me as the view that has the best biblical support. Ill group the Scriptural data into 16 points. (For a fuller exposition of this, see the essay The Case for Annihilationism)
1) The Bible teaches that immortality belongs to God alone (I Tim. 6:16). God graciously offers immortality as a gift to people who align themselves with his will (e.g. John 3:1516; 10:28; 17:2; Rom. 2:7; 6:23; 1 Cor. 15:42f; 50, 54; Gal. 6:8; 1 John 5:11). Those who choose to reject Gods will are denied this gift, following the pattern of Adam and Eve when God denied them access to the tree of life (Gen 3:22-24). This implies that all who reject the gift of eternal life perish. The traditional view of hell, however, assumes that people are inherently immortality, which is a Greek, not a biblical, view.
2) Scripture teaches that the wicked suffer eternal punishment(Mt 25:46), eternal judgment (Heb 6:2) and eternal destruction (2 Thess 1:9), but this doesnt mean the wick endure eternal destruction. They rather experience eternal destruction the same way the elect experience eternal redemption (Heb 5:9, 9:12). The elect do not undergo an eternal process of redemption. Their redemption is eternal in the sense that once the elect are redeemed, it is forever. So too, the damned do not undergo an eternal process of destruction (is that even a coherent concept?). The wicked are destroyed forever (Ps 92:7), but they are not forever being destroyed.
3) If read in context, its clear that Scriptures references to an unquenchable fire and undying worm refer to the finality of judgment, not its duration (Isa. 66:24, cf. 2 Kgs 22:17; 1:31; 51:8; Jer. 4:4; 7:20; 21:12; Ezek. 20:4748). The fire is unquenchable in the sense that it cannot be put it out before it consumes those thrown into it. And the worm is undying in the sense that there is no hope for the condemned that it will be prevented from devouring their corpse.
4) Peter specifically cites the total destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah as a pattern of how God judges the wicked. The Lord turned the inhabitants of these cities to ashes and condemned them to extinction thus making them an example of what is coming to the ungodly (2 Pet. 2:6). Conversely, the Lords rescue of Lot sets a pattern for how the Lord will rescue the godly from trial (2 Pet. 2:9).
5) Throughout the Old Testament the Lord threatens the wicked with annihilation. About the wicked Moses says God will blot out their names from under heaven (Deut. 29:20). God will destroy them like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrahwhich the Lord destroyed in his fierce anger (Deut. 29:23).
6) All the metaphors about Gods judgment in the Old Testament imply total annihilation. For example, in Isaiah the Lord warns that rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together: they shall be consumed; they will be like an oak whose leaf withers; they will be like tinder and they and their work shall burn together (Isa 1:28, 30-31). Elsewhere Isaiah says the wicked will be like stubble and dry grass burned up in fire ( Isa 5:24).
7) In Pslams we read that the wicked shall be like chaff that the wind drives away the wicked will perish (Ps. 1:4, 6). They shall be blotted out of the book of the living (Ps. 69:28, cf. Deut. 29:20). God will cut off the remembrance of them from the earth(Ps. 34:16, 21). In the powerful words of Obediah, the wicked shall be as though they had never been (Obed. 16, emphasis added).
8 ) Along the same lines the Psalmist says the wicked will soon fade like the grass, and wither like the green herb (Ps. 37:2). They shall be cut offandwill be no more; though you look diligently for their place, they will not be there (Ps. 37:910). While the righteous abide forever (37:27), the wicked perishlike smoke they vanish away (Ps. 37:20); they vanish like water that runs away; like grass [they shall] be trodden down and wither; like the snail that dissolves into slime; like the untimely birth that never sees the sun (Ps. 58:78). And again, transgressors shall be altogether destroyed (Ps. 37:38, cf. vs. 34, emphasis added). In short, the fate of the wicked is disintegration into nothingness.
9) Other Old Testament authors use similar annihilationist language to describe Gods judgment of the wicked. Daniel says rebells will be like the chaff of the summer threshing floor blown away by the wind so that not a trace of them [can] be found (Dan. 2:35). Nahum says that in the judgment the wicked are consumed like dry straw (Nahum 1:10). Malachi tells us that the judgment day shall come burning like an oven and all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The judgment thus shall burn them up (Mal. 4:1).
10) So too, Proverbs tells us that after Gods judgment the wicked are no more (10:25, emphasis added). When Gods fury rises, [t]he wicked are overthrown and are no more (12:7, emphasis added). And finally, [t]he evil have no future; the lamp of the wicked will go out (24:20). How can passages like this be reconciled with the traditional view that says the wicked will forever exist in conscious suffering?
11) Throughout the Old Testament were taught that while Gods anger endures for a moment, his love endures forever (Ps. 30:5; e.g. 2 Chr. 5:13; 7:3, 6; 20:21; Ps. 100:5; 103:9; 106:1; 107:1; Ps 118;1-4, 29; 136:10-26). How is this consistent with the traditional teaching that Gods love and anger are equally eternal?
12) Just as with the Old Testament, all the main metaphors used to describe Gods judgment in the New Testament imply annihilation. For example, John the Baptist proclaimed that every treethat does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire (Matt. 3:10). He announced that the Messiah will clear his threshing floor and will gather his wheat into the grainary; but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire (Matt. 3:12). Jesus himself describes hell as a consuming fire several times (Matt. 7:19; 13:40; John 15:6) as do a number of other passages (Heb 6:8, 10:7; Jude 7, cf. Isa 33:11).
13) The New Testament describes the fate of rebells as destruction. Jesus contrasts the wide gate that leads to destruction with the narrow gate that leads to life (Matt. 7:13). So too, he tells his disciples not to fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Matt. 10:28). The implication is that God will do to the soul of the wicked what humans do to the body when they kill it. And this implies that the soul of the wicked will not go on existing in a conscious state after it has been destroyed.
Along the same lines, James teaches that God alone is able to both save and destroy (Jam. 4:12). Peter teaches that destruction awaits false, greedy teachers (2 Pet. 2:3). And Paul teaches that the quest for riches can plunge people into ruin and destruction (1 Tim. 6:9). Moreover, all who are enemies of the cross have destruction as their final end (Phil. 3:1819, cf. 1:28). So too, if anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy that person (1 Cor. 3:17). With the same force the apostle teaches that udden destruction will come upon the wicked in the last days (1 Thess. 5:3). This day is elsewhere described as a day for the destruction of the godless (2 Pet. 3:7). These passages seem to contradict the traditional view that damned souls are in fact never destroyed but rather endure endless torment.
14) The New Testament also frequently expresses the destiny of the wicked by depicting them as dying or perishing. John says Jesus came so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life (John 3:16). Paul utilizes this same contrast when he states that while those who proclaim the gospel are a fragrance from life to life to those who are being saved, it is a fragrance from death to death to those who are perishing (2 Cor. 2:1516). So too, Paul teaches that the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life (Rom. 6:23, cf. 21, 1:32). This is consistent with Jesus teaching when he says that those who try to find life apart from God end up losing it (Matt. 10:39). Many other passages depict the fate of the wicked as death as well (Ja 1:15; 5:19; 1 Tim. 1:10; Heb. 2:14. The repeated contrast in all these passages between death, losing life, and perishing, on the one hand, with life, on the other, seems quite incompatible with the contrast of eternal bliss with eternal pain which the traditional teaching on hell presupposes.
15) The most powerful scriptural passages that can be cited against annihilationism is Revelations 14:10-11 and 20:10. These speak of the wicked being tormented day and night forever and ever. Yet, these passages are not all that hard to explain. We must keep in mind that Revelation is a highly symbolic book. Its apocalyptic images should not be interpreted literally. This is particularly true of the phrase for ever and ever since similar phrases are used elsewhere in Scripture in contexts where they clearly cannot literally mean unending (e.g. Gen 49:26; Ex 40:15; Nu 25:13; Ps 24:7).
The most significant example of this is Isaiah 34:9-10, for it closely parallels the two passages in Revelation. In this passage Isaiah says that the fire that shall consume Edom shall burn [n]ight and day and shall not be quenched. Its smoke shall go up forever and no one shall pass through this land again forever and ever. Obviously, this is symbolic, for the fire and smoke of Edoms judgment isnt still ascending today. If we know the phrase isnt literal in Isaiah, how much less inclined should we be to interpret a nearly identical expression literally in Revelation?
16) Finally, I find it impossible to reconcile the all important New Testament message that God is love (1 Jn 4:8, 16) with the traditional teaching that hell involves hopeless, conscious suffering. In the traditional view, the damned dont suffer in order to learn anything. Theres nothing remedial about their pain. Theres literally no point to their suffering, other than the pain itself. And this pain is without hope of ever being terminated or relieved. How is this view at all compatible with a God whose heart was expressed on Calvary when Jesus gave his life for these very people? Would we call a human being good or merciful or anything other than cruel who retaliated on his foes with this sort of unmitigated, insatiable, unending vengeance? Isnt it more reasonable, and more biblical, to suppose that the God who gave his life for those who are damned would simply put them out of their misery if and when they became hopelessly irredeemable?
From the annihilationist perspective, Gods justice and mercy unite in condemning the wicked to extinction. He justly punishes their sin and forbids them a place within the Kingdom. And he eventually mercifully annihilates them precisely so they will not endlessly endure what the traditional view says they endure.

(Credit to Greg Boyd, his webpage is being restructured so I can't link to it.)

to be corrupted (relating to hell) means something is miss-aligned of original purpose in greek, not annihilated.

psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption

barnes notes:

In hell - - לשׁאול lishe'ôl, "to Sheol." See Psalm 6:5, note; Isaiah 5:14, note. This word does not necessarily mean hell in the sense in which that term is now commonly employed, as denoting the abode of the wicked in the future world, or the place of punishment; but it means the region or abode of the dead, to which the grave was regarded as the door or entrance - the under-world. The idea is, that the soul would not be suffered to remain in that under-world - that dull, gloomy abode (compare the notes at Job 10:21-22), but would rise again to light and life. This language, however, gives no sanction to the words used in the creed, "he descended into hell," nor to the opinion that Christ went down personally to "preach to the spirits in prison " - the souls that are lost (compare the notes at 1 Peter 3:19); but it is language derived from the prevailing opinion that the soul, through the grave, descended to the under-world - to the abodes where the dead were supposed still to reside. See the notes at Isaiah 14:9. As a matter of fact, the soul of the Saviour at his death entered into "paradise." See the notes at Luke 23:43.

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