Let's Talk About Hell (6)

[Sophrosyne]

well it's not a parable for one. It's a real story. And God's eyes are everywhere, else why would he be able to prophecy the future? I believe God is multidimensional and he can be in a higher dimension without actually being there. I don't have any verses for this. But this is the only way that the Bible doesn't contradict the verses I gave regarding light and darkness etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWyTxCsIXE4

This is what omnipresence is essentially, God is able to see (via presence) everywhere. It does not necessarily mean God is there in his entirety though (glory, power, etc). God hears our prayers because he is in a way present there to hear them. Jesus said he would never leave us or forsake us, again... omnipresence. God can be in hell, but not completely in all power and glory etc be in hell (see in hell). We do not really understand enough to figure it out IMO. I think in a sense God's presence everywhere via omnipresence holds together the universe otherwise it would possibly cease to exist as nobody can explain molecular bonds and atoms in their entirety they do not 100% understand how atoms and molecules stay together with orbits and such.

 

[createdtoworship]

This is what omnipresence is essentially, God is able to see (via presence) everywhere. It does not necessarily mean God is there in his entirety though (glory, power, etc). God hears our prayers because he is in a way present there to hear them. Jesus said he would never leave us or forsake us, again... omnipresence. God can be in hell, but not completely in all power and glory etc be in hell (see in hell). We do not really understand enough to figure it out IMO. I think in a sense God's presence everywhere via omnipresence holds together the universe otherwise it would possibly cease to exist as nobody can explain molecular bonds and atoms in their entirety they do not 100% understand how atoms and molecules stay together with orbits and such.

I agree mostly. I believe His face is not here either. Else all would go up in flames. But God may pass us by in the 7th or 8th dimension and we would not see Him because He is in a dimension greater than ours. Did you see the 2D movie? the guy was unknown as a 3D object to the 2D flat land. When the 3D poked his finger through the 2D land it was like a miracle, but totally scientific. Thats what I am talking about God can be in a greater dimension than Hell and not even be part of it at all.

 

[Sophrosyne]

I agree mostly. I believe His face is not here either. Else all would go up in flames. But God may pass us by in the 7th or 8th dimension and we would not see Him because He is in a dimension greater than ours. Did you see the 2D movie? the guy was unknown as a 3D object to the 2D flat land. When the 3D poked his finger through the 2D land it was like a miracle, but totally scientific. Thats what I am talking about God can be in a greater dimension than Hell and not even be part of it at all.

In order to see or be there somehow one must in some way enter the current dimension even partially. What I am saying is God can be in hell in a way that is either tormenting to those there or they don't feel his presence at all but he is there in some way. I think (personally) that part of torment is God "knowing" the thoughts (sins) of the person there and their condition and he punishes them in some fashion to ease their endless conscience condemning them just like people who are caught doing a crime readily and willingly want to be punished because of the presence of good people there.
Those who reject hell sometimes have a problem with the idea of Omnipresence and God actually being merciful to those who live forever without ever feeling their sins are forgiven because even though God forgave them on the cross they will never relate to that because they rejected the contract on the cross for forgiveness therefore in their spirit they still have those sins... unforgiven and never forgotten.
If you think of the worst thing you could do to the one person that loves you the most (and you later realize you should have loved them also) and then you do that to them and are never able to get their forgiveness then it will torment you forever.

 

[createdtoworship]

In order to see or be there somehow one must in some way enter the current dimension even partially.

See you are 3D and a stick figure is 2D. So you could technically draw another stick figure and the stick figure land would think it was a miracle. So yes you could SEE and be there but not be part of the dimension at all. The video shows a 3D guy like a God and the stick figures like humans, and it shows the interaction between the two. But I see your point.

 

[he-man]

Jesus the son went to Hell once. That doesn't mean the He or the Father are there continually.

You cannot limit the power of God.
His presence is everywhere

Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hadēs,
neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Note: The Greek word punished [τίνω G5099] does not occur in the original Greek translation of 2Th 1:9 .

 

[createdtoworship]

You cannot limit the power of God.
His presence is everywhere

Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hadēs,
neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Note: The Greek word punished [τίνω G5099] does not occur in the original Greek translation of 2Th 1:9 .

He doesn't want to be in darkness, He is light.

 

[he-man]

He doesn't want to be in darkness, He is light.

2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Psa 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Note: The Greek word punished [τίνω G5099] does not occur in the original Greek translation of 2Th 1:9 .

 

[createdtoworship]

Note: The Greek word punished [τίνω G5099] does not occur in the original Greek translation of 2Th 1:9 .

[/SIZE]

If I remember correctly, it's in the previous verse and it's all the same sentence in greek. If I am not mistaken.

 

[he-man]

If I remember correctly, it's in the previous verse and it's all the same sentence in greek. If I am not mistaken.

‘Newton laid the blame for the rise of the pagan doctrines about demons in the Church at the door of his ecclesiastical nemesis Athanasius, whom he also saw as responsible for introducing Trinitarianism and the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. In his “Paradoxical questions concerning Athanasius”, Newton contends that Athanasius advanced the notion of a conscious existence of the soul in the intermediate state between death and resurrection.’

Well, where could such an idea come from if not from the Bible?

In the myth the twins shared the same mother but had different fathers which meant that Pollux was immortal and Castor was mortal. When Castor died, Pollux asked Zeus to let him share his own immortality with his twin to keep them together and they were transformed into the Gemini constellation. The pair were regarded as the patrons of sailors, to whom they appeared as St. Elmo's fire.
They are known collectively in Greek as the Dioscuri; Latin: Dioscuri; Greek: Dioskouroi, "sons of Zeus") and in Latin as the Gemini twins or Castores.

Roman Castor and Pollux
From the fifth century BC onwards, the brothers were revered by the Romans, probably as the result of cultural transmission via the Greek colonies of Magna Graecia in southern Italy. An archaic Latin
inscription of the sixth or fifth century BC found at Lavinium, which reads Castorei Podlouqueique qurois ("To Castor and Pollux, the Dioskouroi"), suggests a direct transmission from the Greeks.
Mary Beard, John North, Simon Price, Religions of Rome: Volume 1, A History, p. 21. Cambridge University Press, 1998.

Even after the rise of Christianity, the Dioskouroi continued to be venerated. The fifth-century pope Gelasius I attested to the presence of a "cult of Castores" that the people did not want to abandon. In some instances, the twins appear to have simply been absorbed into a Christian framework; thus fourth-century AD pottery and carvings from North Africa depict the Dioskouroi alongside the Twelve Apostles, the Raising of Lazarus or with Saint Peter.

The church took an ambivalent attitude, rejecting the immortality of the Dioskouroi but seeking to replace them with equivalent Christian pairs. Saints Peter and Paul were thus adopted in place of the Dioskouroi as patrons of travellers, and Saints Cosmas and Damian took over their function as healers. Some have also associated Saints Speusippus, Eleusippus, and Melapsippus with the Dioskouroi.
Alexander Kazhdan, Alice-Mary Talbot "Dioskouroi". The Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium. Ed. Alexander P. Kazhdan. Oxford University Press 1991.

 

[createdtoworship]

‘Newton laid the blame for the rise of the pagan doctrines about demons in the Church at the door of his ecclesiastical nemesis Athanasius, whom he also saw as responsible for introducing Trinitarianism and the doctrine of the immortality of the soul. In his “Paradoxical questions concerning Athanasius”, Newton contends that Athanasius advanced the notion of a conscious existence of the soul in the intermediate state between death and resurrection.

If it's new it's not true, if it's true it's not new. No church fathers quote annihiliation that I could find so it's definately not an old belief.....early church quoted extensively on hell fire and eternal flames.

From Clement of Alexandria (195AD)
Titus Flavius Clemens was the first significant and recorded Christian from the church of Alexandria, Egypt. His parents were Greek and he was raised with a solid, formal Greek education. While he had a tendency to blend Greek and Christian philosophies, his view on the issue of Hell was derived from the scriptures:

All souls are immortal, even those of the wicked. Yet, it would be better for them if they were not deathless. For they are punished with the endless vengeance of quenchless fire. Since they do not die, it is impossible for them to have an end put to their misery.

(from a post-Nicene manuscript fragment)

From Ignatius of Antioch (110AD)
Ignatius was a student of the Apostle John, and succeeded the Apostle Peter as the Bishop of Antioch. He wrote a number of important letters to believers in churches in the area:

how much more if a man corrupt by evil reaching the faith of God. for the sake of which Jesus Christ was crucified? A man become so foul will depart into unquenchable fire: and so will anyone who listens to him. (Letter to the Ephesians 16:1-2)

From “The Martyrdom of Polycarp” (155AD)
This work was written by an Early Church Father (unknown author) and is dated very early in the history of Christianity. It describes the death of Polycarp, a disciple of the Apostle John, and also describes early teachings of the church:

Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire (“Martyrdom of Polycarp” 2:3)

From Tatian (160AD)
Tatian was an early Assyrian believer who moved to Rome as a pagan and eventually became a Christian. Interestingly, he read the Jewish Scriptures and from these became convinced that other pagan ideas about the world were simply false. He was a student of Justin Martyr and wrote about the unreasonableness of paganism and the truth of Christianity:

We who are now easily susceptible to death, will afterwards receive immortality with either enjoyment or with pain.

From Athenagoras of Athens (175AD)
Athenagoras was a philosopher and citizen of Athens who became a Christian (possibly from Platonism) and wrote two important apologetic works; “Apology” or “Embassy for the Christians”, and a “Treatise on the Resurrection”:

We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we will live another life, better than the present one...or, if they fall with the rest, they will endure a worse life, one in fire. For God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, who are mere by-products. For animals perish and are annihilated. On these grounds, it is not likely that we would wish to do evil. (“Apology&#8221

From Theophilus of Antioch (181AD)
Theophilus was the Patriarch of Antioch from 169 to 183AD. He was born a pagan and converted to Christianity after reading the scriptures. He was very zealous about protecting the orthodoxy of the earliest believers and he wrote a defense of the faith to a man named Autolycus:

Give studious attention to the prophetic writings [the Bible] and they will lead you on a clearer path to escape the eternal punishments and to obtain the eternal good things of God. . . . [God] will examine everything and will judge justly, granting recompense to each according to merit. To those who seek immortality by the patient exercise of good works, he will give everlasting life, joy, peace, rest, and all good things. . . . For the unbelievers and for the contemptuous, and for those who do not submit to the truth but assent to iniquity, when they have been involved in adulteries, and fornications, and homosexualities, and avarice, and in lawless idolatries, there will be wrath and indignation, tribulation and anguish; and in the end, such men as these will be detained in everlasting fire (“To Autolycus” 1:14)

From Irenaeus (189AD)
Irenaeus was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul (now Lyon, France) at the end of the second century. He was a disciple of Polycarp and a notable early apologist for the faith. He wrote several volumes defending the faith against Gnosticism and other early heresies of the Church, and he often compared eternal punishment to eternal reward, drawing the conclusion that one endured as long as the other:

...Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, 'every knee should bow, of things in heaven,, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess' to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send 'spiritual wickednesses,' and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning of their Christian course, and others from the date of their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory. (“Against Heresies” 1:10:10)

The penalty increases for those who do not believe the Word of God and despise his coming. . . . t is not merely temporal, but eternal. To whomsoever the Lord shall say, ‘Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire,’ they will be damned forever (“Against Heresies” 4:28:2)

From Tertullian (197AD)
Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus was a Romanized African citizen who was born in Carthage (now Tunisia). He became a Christian and was a powerful and influential apologist for the faith, writing prolifically in defense of the doctrines of orthodoxy:

These have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favor, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshipers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense. (“Apology” 18:3)

Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshipers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility (“Apology” 44:12–13)

Therefore after this there is neither death nor repeated resurrections, but we shall be the same that we are now, and still unchanged--the servants of God, ever with God, clothed upon with the proper substance of eternity; but the profane, and all who are not true worshippers of God, in like manner shall be consigned to the punishment of everlasting fire--that fire which, from its very nature indeed, directly ministers to their incorruptibility. ("Apology" 48:12)

From Hippolytus of Rome (212AD)
Hippolytus was one of the most prolific writers of the early Church, and he was often at theological odds with the early Popes and church leaders of his time. He appears to have been a student of Irenaeus, and wrote MANY volumes of history, apologetics and Biblical teaching:


Standing before [Christ’s] judgment, all of them, men, angels, and demons, crying out in one voice, shall say: ‘Just is your judgment!’ And the righteousness of that cry will be apparent in the recompense made to each. To those who have done well, everlasting enjoyment shall be given; while to the lovers of evil shall be given eternal punishment. The unquenchable and unending fire awaits these latter, and a certain fiery worm which does not die and which does not waste the body but continually bursts forth from the body with unceasing pain. No sleep will give them rest; no night will soothe them; no death will deliver them from punishment; no appeal of interceding friends will profit them (“Against the Greeks 3&#8221


From Felix Minucius (226AD)
Felix Marcus Minucius is perhaps the earliest known Latin apologist for the Christian faith. He wrote “Octavius”, a dialogue on Christianity between a non-believer named Caecilius Natalis and a Christian named Octavius Januarius (who was a lawyer, friend and student of Minucius Felix:


I am not ignorant of the fact that many, in the consciousness of what they deserve, would rather hope than actually believe that there is nothing for them after death. They would prefer to be annihilated rather than be restored for punishment... Nor is there either measure nor end to these torments. That clever fire burns the limbs and restores them, wears them away and yet sustains them, just as fiery thunderbolts strike bodies but do not consume them (“Octavius” 34:12–5:3)


From Cyprian of Carthage (252 AD)
Thascius Caecilius Cyprianus was bishop at Carthage. He had an excellent Greek education and wrote several key letters and treatises in which he discussed doctrines of the Church:


An ever-burning Gehenna and the punishment of being devoured by living flames will consume the condemned; nor will there be any way in which the tormented can ever have respite or be at an end. Souls along with their bodies will be preserved for suffering in unlimited agonies. . . . The grief at punishment will then be without the fruit of repentance; weeping will be useless, and prayer ineffectual. Too late will they believe in eternal punishment, who would not believe in eternal life (“To Demetrian” 24)



Oh,what and how great will that day be at its coming, beloved brethren, when the Lord shall begin to count up His people, and to recognize the deservings of each one by the inspection of His divine knowledge, to send the guilty to Gehenna, and to set on fire our persecutors with the perpetual burning of a penal fire, but to pay to us the reward of our faith and devotion! ("To Thibaris" 55:10)


From Lactantius (307AD)
Lucius Caelius Firmianus Lactantius was a Latin speaking native of North Africa. He was an expert in rhetoric and he taught the subject in the city of Nicomedia at the request of Emperor Diocletian. He also wrote several apologetic and doctrinal works:


But, however, the sacred writings inform us in what manner the wicked are to undergo punishment. For because they have committed sins in their bodies, they will again be clothed with flesh, that they may make atonement in their bodies; and yet it will not be that flesh with which God clothed man, like this our earthly body, but indestructible, and abiding forever, that it may be able to hold out against tortures and everlasting fire...The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment ...Then they whose piety shall have been approved of will receive the reward of immortality; but they whose sins and crimes shall have been brought to light will not rise again, but will be hidden in the same darkness with the wicked, being destined to certain punishment. (“Divine Institutes” 7:21)


From Cyril of Jerusalem (350AD)
Cyril was a well respected theologian of the early Church and a bishop of the church at Jerusalem. He wrote twenty three teaching lectures on the doctrines of the Church and delivered these lectures while he was a presbyter in Jerusalem:


We shall be raised therefore, all with our bodies eternal, but not all with bodies alike: for if a man is righteous, he will receive a heavenly body, that he may be able worthily to hold converse with angels; but if a man is a sinner, he shall receive an eternal body, fitted to endure the penalties of sins, that he may burn eternally in fire, nor ever be consumed… (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:19)

The real and true life then is the Father, who through the Son in the Holy Spirit pours forth as from a fountain His heavenly gifts to all; and through His love to man, the blessings of the life eternal are promised without fail to us men also. We must not disbelieve the possibility of this, but having an eye not to our own weakness but to His power, we must believe; for with God all things are possible. And that this is possible, and that we may look for eternal life, Daniel declares, And of the many righteous shall they shine as the stars forever and ever. And Paul says, And so shall we be ever with the Lord: for the being forever with the lord implies the life eternal. But most plainly of all the Savior Himself says in the Gospel, And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal. (“Catechetical Lectures” 18:28)

 

[he-man]

If it's new it's not true, if it's true it's not new. No church fathers quote annihiliation that I could find so it's definately not an old belief.....early church quoted extensively on hell fire and eternal flames.

Sinners will be consumed because they have sinned and did not repent. Hermas (c.150, W) 2.33

Those who have not known God and do evil are condemned to death.However, those who have known God and have seen His Mighty works, but still continue in evil, will be chastized doubly, and will die forever. Hermas (c.150, W) 2.50

The Bible:
Psa 35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them.

Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the repository; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The whole metaphor represents the Messiah as separating the evil from the good, according to the tests of his kingdom and Gospel, receiving the worthy into his kingdom and consigning the unworthy to destruction (compare Mat_13:30, Mat_13:39-43, Mat_13:48-50). [VWS]

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Mat 13:47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Mat 13:50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth

Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:


The Shepherd of Hermas
The Shepherd of Hermas (sometimes just called The Shepherd) is a Christian literary work of the second century, considered a valuable book by many Christians, and considered canonical scripture by some of the early Church fathers such as Irenaeus.

The Shepherd had great authority in the second and third centuries. Along with the Apocrypha, it was bound with in the Codex Sinaiticus, and it was listed between the Acts of the Apostles.

 

[createdtoworship]

Sinners will be consumed because they have sinned and did not repent. Hermas (c.150, W) 2.33

Those who have not known God and do evil are condemned to death.However, those who have known God and have seen His Mighty works, but still continue in evil, will be chastized doubly, and will die forever. Hermas (c.150, W) 2.50

The Bible:
Psa 35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them.

Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the repository; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The whole metaphor represents the Messiah as separating the evil from the good, according to the tests of his kingdom and Gospel, receiving the worthy into his kingdom and consigning the unworthy to destruction (compare Mat_13:30, Mat_13:39-43, Mat_13:48-50). [VWS]

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Mat 13:47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Mat 13:50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth

Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:


The Shepherd of Hermas
The Shepherd of Hermas (sometimes just called The Shepherd) is a Christian literary work of the second century, considered a valuable book by many Christians, and considered canonical scripture by some of the early Church fathers such as Irenaeus.

The Shepherd had great authority in the second and third centuries. Along with the Apocrypha, it was bound with in the Codex Sinaiticus, and it was listed between the Acts of the Apostles.

the shephard is not inspired. Try again. Got any other legitimate church fathers?

 

[BobRyan]

If Isaiah 66:24 speaks of hell, it is certainly NOT speaking about the traditional hell where dead people are alive and conscious being tortured.
Read the verse, it is talking about DEAD people.
"And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

Isaiah 66 reflects the view that dead people are dead, not alive and enduring torture.

It is real hell - real fiery hell where the dead are reduced to ashes.

As Jesus said that God would "destroy BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28.

And that this would even destroy Satan - reducing him to ashes as well.

So yes - real fire, real brimstone (Rev 14:10) and really in the very presence of the Lamb and His holy ones -- but then at last - "both body and soul destroyed".

For "some" will get many stripes in hell and others "few" - Luke 12:45-49

 

[he-man]

the shephard is not inspired. Try again. Got any other legitimate church fathers?

Psa 35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them.

Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the repository; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The whole metaphor represents the Messiah as separating the evil from the good, according to the tests of his kingdom and Gospel, receiving the worthy into his kingdom and consigning the unworthy to destruction (compare Mat_13:30, Mat_13:39-43, Mat_13:48-50). [VWS]

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Mat 13:47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Mat 13:50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth

Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

 

[createdtoworship]

Psa 35:5 Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them.

Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the repository; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The whole metaphor represents the Messiah as separating the evil from the good, according to the tests of his kingdom and Gospel, receiving the worthy into his kingdom and consigning the unworthy to destruction (compare Mat_13:30, Mat_13:39-43, Mat_13:48-50). [VWS]

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Mat 13:47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Mat 13:50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth

Psa 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

so you don't have a single church father that agrees with annihilation?

not even origen?

 

[dollarsbill]

And that this would even destroy Satan - reducing him to ashes as well.

It does not say that.

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[dollarsbill]

Jesus meant exactly what He said. He didn't make up horror stories.

Luke 16:22-28 (NASB)
22 ; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 ~'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.' 27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

 

[x141]

Jesus meant exactly what He said. He didn't make up horror stories.

Luke 16:22-28 (NASB)
22 ; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. 26 ~'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.' 27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house— 28 for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

The back drop for this parable is about the destroying of the great gulf by fullfillment.

Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

1Co 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

The book of Revelation is what happened in Jesus and what is happening in us even now.

 

[dollarsbill]

The back drop for this parable is about the destroying of the great gulf by fullfillment.

Luk 16:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

1Co 7:39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

The book of Revelation is what happened in Jesus and what is happening in us even now.

It means exactly what it says. It needs no 'interpretation'. It is consistent with 'eternal punishment' in fire in the NT.

Revelation 14:9-11 (NASB)
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

 

[Timothew]

Thank you Dollarsbill for bringing up those same 3 passages once again.
Now would you like to discuss these passages of scripture?
Matt 7:13

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

​

This says destruction, not eternal torment.

Matthew 10:28

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

​

Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Matthew 13:30

First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
​

The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,

So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
​

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

Luke 13:3

I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
​

Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

​

So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.

John 5:24, Jesus said

Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
​

He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.

John 8:21

Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
​

Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
​

Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17

If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
​

Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8

For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
​

phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9

These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
​

Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-27,

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
​

Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

Hebrews 10:39

But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

​

James 1:15b

and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
​

Death, not eternal torture.

James 4:12a

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
​

Destroy, not eternally torture.

2 Peter 2:1

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
​

Destruction, not eternal torment.

2 Peter 3:7-9

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

​

Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
​

How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

Jude 5

Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

​

Jude 10

But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
​

Revelation 2:11b

He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
​

The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

​

Revelation 18:8

For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
​

The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

Revelation 20:14-15

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
​

John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

Revelation 21:8

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
​

They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.

Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
6 For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,

Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.

Psalm 9:3
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.

Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

Psalm 21:9
When you appear for battle,
you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace.
The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath,
and his fire will consume them.

Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

Psalm 36:12
See how the evildoers lie fallen—
thrown down, not able to rise!

Psalm 37:1-2
Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
2 for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.

Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.


There are thousands of passages like these in Bible, Passages that say the lost are destroyed, and that they perish. In light of the staggering amount of biblical evidence for annihilationism and the abysmal lack of biblical evidence for eternal tormentalism, do you still expect me to go back and believe the lie of eternal tormentalism?