Let's Talk About Hell (6)

[JPD]

Rev 20:10 Forever is forever.

Nope. The Devil is tormented for one "age" of punishment from all the other "ages" that follow it. He isn't tormented in one "forever" and then plucked out and put into an other "forever" remember the Greek "OF" It's NOT "and" as the English erroneously states.

 

[Sophrosyne]

No. It's the way you are reading the POOR English translation that is causing you confusion. If you read these verses according to the Greek usage. They don't say God is "temporary" at all. The Greek states that God endures through ALL of these ages. Through ages past and future ages.

You can have a succession of Ages - you CANT have a succession of ETERNITIES. - Hence "Forever" + an other "ever" is incongruous.

Age OF the ages makes sense.

You may think I'm being unreasonable. I'm actually trying to help you read the Bible texts in the ancient language it was written in. I'm here to learn off others the same way you are. It's good to prove your beliefs against solid scrutiny. That's whats great about these debates

Actually what you are saying is that the people that made all those "poor" English translations are idiots compared to you.

 

[dollarsbill]

Nope. The Devil is tormented for one "age" of punishment from all the other "ages" that follow it. He isn't tormented in one "forever" and then plucked out and put into an other "forever" remember the Greek "OF" It's NOT "and" as the English erroneously states.

Should we believe YOUR personal translation or most of our English translations that prove you are wrong?

 

[dollarsbill]

Actually what you are saying is that the people that made all those "poor" English translations are idiots compared to you.

 

[JPD]

Actually what you are saying is that the people that made all those "poor" English translations are idiots compared to you.

Not at all. All translators were/are very learned men indeed! They did the best they could with what they had. Unfortunately translators through the centuries were prone to accepting the ecclesiastical bias' of the day. A very good example of this is Justinians decree that "the life of the saints was to be ‘everlasting,’ and that the doom of the lost was to be likewise." That will keep the Masses obedient now huh!

"The holy church of Christ teaches an unendable eonian (ateleutEtos aiOnios) life for the righteous, and unendable (ateleutEtos) punishment for the wicked."

Thus, we teach it today in our Churches. Not because it's scriptural , but because its a lie that has continued to be promulgated through the centuries.

By the time the KJV was printed in 1611, this doctrine became entrenched into the church psyche. Furthermore, almost all of our modern translations are based off the KJV. Hence they continue the error.

The Latin is a poor cousin indeed to the original Greek and Hebrew scriptures.

 

[dollarsbill]

Not at all. All translators were/are very learned men indeed! They did the best they could with what they had. Unfortunately translators through the centuries were prone to accepting the ecclesiastical bias' of the day. A very good example of this is Justinians decree that "the life of the saints was to be ‘everlasting,’ and that the doom of the lost was to be likewise." That will keep the Masses obedient now huh!

"The holy church of Christ teaches an unendable eonian (ateleutEtos aiOnios) life for the righteous, and unendable (ateleutEtos) punishment for the wicked."

Thus, we teach it today in our Churches. Not because it's scriptural , but because its a lie that has continued to be promulgated through the centuries.

By the time the KJV was printed in 1611, this doctrine became entrenched into the church psyche. Furthermore, almost all of our modern translations are based off the KJV. Hence they continue the error.

The Latin is a poor cousin indeed to the original Greek and Hebrew scriptures.

So what are your credentials to prove our English Bibles are wrong? Do you have any?

 

[Sophrosyne]

Not at all. All translators were/are very learned men indeed! They did the best they could with what they had. Unfortunately translators through the centuries were prone to accepting the ecclesiastical bias' of the day. A very good example of this is Justinians decree that "the life of the saints was to be ‘everlasting,’ and that the doom of the lost was to be likewise." That will keep the Masses obedient now huh!

"The holy church of Christ teaches an unendable eonian (ateleutEtos aiOnios) life for the righteous, and unendable (ateleutEtos) punishment for the wicked."

Thus, we teach it today in our Churches. Not because it's scriptural , but because its a lie that has continued to be promulgated through the centuries.

By the time the KJV was printed in 1611, this doctrine became entrenched into the church psyche. Furthermore, almost all of our modern translations are based off the KJV. Hence they continue the error.

The Latin is a poor cousin indeed to the original Greek and Hebrew scriptures.

and if someone quotes from a bible not based on the KJV and you disagree then what?

 

[Soulgazer]

The problem is not that hard to solve. They have Christians in Greece also. Greek Christians steadfastly refuse to use English bibles, no matter how well they speak English.

Go to an English speaking Greek Christian board and ask them. They swear our translations change the entire religion.

 

[JPD]

The problem is not that hard to solve. They have Christians in Greece also. Greek Christians steadfastly refuse to use English bibles, no matter how well they speak English.

Go to an English speaking Greek Christian board and ask them. They swear our translations change the entire religion.

Ain't that the truth! Lol!

 

[JPD]

If anyone wants to read a good article on the subject of "eternity" - as far as the orthodox Bible cannon teaches it - check out this study.

Eternal Consequences article

It answers a lot of the questions that we continue to disagree over in these threads. You may not agree with it all - but it goes a long way in providing the reason why some of us on this forum take issue with the doctrine of "eternal punishment." You don't have to of course - I dare say, most here would consider it an exercise in futility! But anyway...

 

[createdtoworship]

The problem is not that hard to solve. They have Christians in Greece also. Greek Christians steadfastly refuse to use English bibles, no matter how well they speak English.

Go to an English speaking Greek Christian board and ask them. They swear our translations change the entire religion.

early church believed in Hell and Justin Mayrtr who had studied greek believed in eternal hell too...

"For neither will you commit any offence against your fathers, if you now show a desire to betake yourselves to that which is quite opposed to their error, since it is likely enough that they themselves are now lamenting in Hades, and repenting with a too late repentance.... — Justin, Hortatory Address to the Greeks Chapter 35

No one can claim that the first Christians did not believe in hell. There are so many references in The Ante Nicene Fathers to "eternal punishment" or "everlasting fire" that it would be tedious to list them. Yet citing only a few may leave the impression that this doctrine isn't pervasive — so I'll encourage you, as I often do, to read the documents for yourself. Here are some of the references I find most intriguing.

But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been thus defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. — Irenaeus, Against Heresies Book 4, Chapter 39.4

"Inasmuch, then, as in both Testaments there is the same righteousness of God displayed when God takes vengeance, in the one case indeed typically, temporarily, and more moderately; but in the other, really, enduringly, and more rigidly; for the fire is eternal...." — Irenaeus, Against Heresies Book 4, Chapter 28.1

And by means of this knowledge [of the true God] you shall escape the approaching threat of the fire of judgment, and the rayless scenery of gloomy Tartarus, where never shines a beam from the irradiating voice of the Word! You shall escape the boiling flood of hell's eternal lake of fire, and the eye ever fixed in menacing glare of fallen angels chained in Tartarus as punishment for their sins; and you shall escape the worm that ceaselessly coils for food around the body whose scum has bred it. — Hippolytus, Refutation of All Heresies Book 10, Chapter 30

Since I said in a recent article that Jesus doesn't necessarily hate the rich, here are some quotes that may supply balance:

"After death there were punishments for the arrogance of wealth and the glory of luxury." — Tertullian, Against Marcion Book 4, Chapter 34

"But if one chooses to continue and to sin perpetually in pleasures, and values indulgence here above eternal life, and turns away from the Saviour, who gives forgiveness; let him no more blame either God, or riches, or his having fallen, but his own soul, which voluntarily perishes." — Clement of Alexandria, Who is the Rich Man That Shall be Saved? Chapter 42

The heretic Marcion invented a "good" God who was better than that mean old biblical God — better, that is, for the many like Mr. Obama who apparently crave an unjust deity. Tertullian countered:

It would be a more unworthy course for God to spare the evil-doer then to punish him, especially in the most good and holy God, who is not otherwise fully good than as the enemy of evil, and that to such a degree as to display His love of good by the hatred of evil, and to fulfil His defence of the former by the extirpation of the latter. — Tertullian, Against Marcion Book 1, Chapter 26

Annihilation?

Some of the modern cults preach that physical death is the end. The "Fathers" had scriptural answers ready.

"We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we shall live another life, better than the present one...or, falling with the rest, a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere by-work, and that we should perish and be annihilated." — Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians Chapter 31

"By and by thou givest up thy life; thou shalt be taken where it grieveth thee to be: there the spiritual punishment, which is eternal, is undergone; there are always wailings: nor dost thou absolutely die therein — there at length too late proclaiming the omnipotent God." — Commodianus, Instructions Chapter 29

Tertullian seems to have been responding to Jesus' words, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who after He has killed has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him" (Luke 12:4b, 5 NASB), when that "Father" wrote:

If, therefore, any one shall violently suppose that the destruction of the soul and the flesh in hell amounts to a final annihilation of the two substances, and not to their penal treatment (as if they were to be consumed, not punished), let him recollect that the fire of hell is eternal — expressly announced as an everlasting penalty; and let him admit that it is from this circumstance that this never-ending "killing" is more formidable than a merely human murder, which is only temporal. — On the Resurrection of the Flesh Chapter 35

 

[Sophrosyne]

If anyone wants to read a good article on the subject of "eternity" - as far as the orthodox Bible cannon teaches it - check out this study.

Eternal Consequences article

It answers a lot of the questions that we continue to disagree over in these threads. You may not agree with it all - but it goes a long way in providing the reason why some of us on this forum take issue with the doctrine of "eternal punishment." You don't have to of course - I dare say, most here would consider it an exercise in futility! But anyway...

Why would I take any of your words for what the orthodox believe from sites such at tentmakers etc? I can ask orthodox greeks here in the forum about hell and get an answer. Wiki says eastern orthodox believe

he Eastern Orthodox church teaches that Heaven and Hell are being in God's presence[29][30] which is being with God and seeing God, and that there no such place as where God is not, nor is Hell taught in the East as separation from God.[31] One expression of the Eastern teaching is that hell and heaven are being in God's presence, as this presence is punishment and paradise depending on the person's spiritual state in that presence.[29][32] For one who hates God, to be in the presence of God eternally would be the gravest suffering.
Christian views on Hell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[createdtoworship]

If anyone wants to read a good article on the subject of "eternity" - as far as the orthodox Bible cannon teaches it - check out this study.

Eternal Consequences article

It answers a lot of the questions that we continue to disagree over in these threads. You may not agree with it all - but it goes a long way in providing the reason why some of us on this forum take issue with the doctrine of "eternal punishment." You don't have to of course - I dare say, most here would consider it an exercise in futility! But anyway...

quote from your link....

The noun “AION” nowhere means eternal. Its simple meaning is an age. In its plural form it means ages.

however if this is true, the God is not eternal only exists for an age. It is also true the Christians only go to heaven for an age. It is the same word used for both.

 

[Soulgazer]

It's not a case of "hating" the rich. To be "born again" is to have ones eyes opened to all of the suffering in the world.

Notice the context in which this much used and abused saying is used. No one can be "born again" in the context used in Matthew and hang on to their excess wealth, their conscience just wouldn't let them.

The supposed predecessor to the "Gospel of Mathew", the "Gospel to the Hebrews" has Jesus finishing to the effect that "so much has flowed into your house, and nothing has flowed out of it".

"We are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we shall live another life, better than the present one...or, falling with the rest, a worse one and in fire; for God has not made us as sheep or beasts of burden, a mere by-work, and that we should perish and be annihilated." — Athenagoras, A Plea for the Christians Chapter 31

I guess he never read Ecclesiastes.

Tertullian seems to have been responding to Jesus' words, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who after He has killed has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him" (Luke 12:4b, 5 NASB), when that "Father" wrote:

He repented of the catholic Heresy and became a Montanist.

The problem with all of these notions of an eternal torture, is that it makes God less than man.

 

[Noxot]

yeah what kind of man would torture someone forever? and God is way better than men. ~sigh~

is is really so hard to believe that people don't know what the heck God means when he talks about hell? I would rather be a fool and not understand than to think i know and make God look like some kind of monster worse than satan himself or as satan. yeah i'm not slandering God, you people who say He tortures people forever are the ones slandering God and I want it to stop! and the ones that say God would be so weak to give up and erase His creatures, now that is a slander to the character of God! it really really bothers me to no end hearing such things. is no one else bothered that people believe God is something less than men are!?!?

I guess it is true that most men are trapped in a labyrinth of their own beliefs ( i wish to escape all such things ). is it hard to think that you are the same kinds of people that try to stone people with stones when someone sins? and yet Jesus Christ never told anyone to stone anybody. perhaps some people don't understand what God wants? how could God tell people to stone people and then Jesus come to the earth and not stone people? maybe it is because the letter kills, but the spirit gives life. if you read moses according to the letter, then yes you will think God wants to kill people. if you read moses according to the unity of the Spirit you will see that God never asked for such insanity! and I believe that this is the same for most peoples beliefs of the hell they believe in.

Oh, how I hate religion! how many men has it slain? how many times has it slandered God? wicked pits, wicked doctrines and still they want to believe God is some horrible God of vengeance rather than a God who heals and saves and who is the Father of us all. they stumble over the words of God all day long. if only you would see the unity and depths of the scriptures! then you would believe that God has much more mercy and love than men do.

 

[createdtoworship]

It's not a case of "hating" the rich. To be "born again" is to have ones eyes opened to all of the suffering in the world.

Notice the context in which this much used and abused saying is used. No one can be "born again" in the context used in Matthew and hang on to their excess wealth, their conscience just wouldn't let them.

The supposed predecessor to the "Gospel of Mathew", the "Gospel to the Hebrews" has Jesus finishing to the effect that "so much has flowed into your house, and nothing has flowed out of it".

I guess he never read Ecclesiastes.

He repented of the catholic Heresy and became a Montanist.

The problem with all of these notions of an eternal torture, is that it makes God less than man.

montanists didn't reject eternal hell, just more people went there apparently because of their legalistic views.

 

[Soulgazer]

montanists didn't reject eternal hell, just more people went there apparently because of their legalistic views.

Montanist didn't use scriptures or leave writings. They were a gnostic visionary sect---the lack of written material cut down on the arguments I guess.

 

[he-man]

but just because your dead doesn't mean you cease to exist. In the "darkness" you still exist. when you are "uprooted" and moved you still exist. My car was destroyed at the junkyard but it still exists. Got any more verses to share?

It is those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ; who are not allowed to see the face of God forever, but are forever destroyed.

And NOW the rest of the story...Jude 1:12-15 (ESV)
12 These are hidden reefs at your love feasts, as they feast with you without fear, shepherds feeding themselves; waterless clouds, swept along by winds; fruitless trees in late autumn, twice dead, uprooted;

13 wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

14 It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones,

15 to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

My Friend, First of all the discriptions of hell are symbolical of the grave and you will not literally burn up, it is symbolical of the grave being a place of eternal destruction for unbelievers, those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ will simply cease to exist.
Job 12:9-10 (YLT)
9 `Who hath not known in all these, That the hand of Jehovah hath done this?

10 In whose hand is the breath of every living thing, And the spirit of all flesh of man.'

2Th 2:8 And then shall the wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall quash with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
John 12:25 He that loves his life shall lose it; and he that hates his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Prov 127) When your terror comes like a storm,
And your destruction comes like a whirlwind,
When distress and anguish come upon you.
(28) " Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.
(29) Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD,
(30) They would have none of my counsel And despised my every rebuke
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

 

[ImaginaryDay]

yeah what kind of man would torture someone forever? and God is way better than men. ~sigh~

is is really so hard to believe that people don't know what the heck God means when he talks about hell? I would rather be a fool and not understand than to think i know and make God look like some kind of monster worse than satan himself or as satan. yeah i'm not slandering God, you people who say He tortures people forever are the ones slandering God and I want it to stop! and the ones that say God would be so weak to give up and erase His creatures, now that is a slander to the character of God! it really really bothers me to no end hearing such things. is no one else bothered that people believe God is something less than men are!?!?

I guess it is true that most men are trapped in a labyrinth of their own beliefs ( i wish to escape all such things ). is it hard to think that you are the same kinds of people that try to stone people with stones when someone sins? and yet Jesus Christ never told anyone to stone anybody. perhaps some people don't understand what God wants? how could God tell people to stone people and then Jesus come to the earth and not stone people? maybe it is because the letter kills, but the spirit gives life. if you read moses according to the letter, then yes you will think God wants to kill people. if you read moses according to the unity of the Spirit you will see that God never asked for such insanity! and I believe that this is the same for most peoples beliefs of the hell they believe in.

Oh, how I hate religion! how many men has it slain? how many times has it slandered God? wicked pits, wicked doctrines and still they want to believe God is some horrible God of vengeance rather than a God who heals and saves and who is the Father of us all. they stumble over the words of God all day long. if only you would see the unity and depths of the scriptures! then you would believe that God has much more mercy and love than men do.

Hi. Very well said, and you say what so many are saying right now. It is indeed hard to believe all of these things about God. I don't want you to be upset about what I'm going to say, but just think about it. God is Love. John says so and the Bible attests to it all the way through. It is his nature. It's who He is from cover to cover. If you want proof of it in the OT read Jeremiah 18: 1-6. It is so awesome that, as His people, we are in His hand and he is shaping us. We can never be lost when we stay with Him.

Now some bad news (not for us, but for those that do't know God) - God is also righteous. This is also His nature and He also shows this from cover to cover and we can't get around it.
I'm going to suggest a book for you to read that addresses these concerns you have called "Erasing Hell" by Francis Chan. Francis struggled with the same things you do and eventually had to come to terms with a LOT of things. He didn't like it, and I don't like it either. But certain things about God and His nature are true. Just consider some of these things.
Peace.

 

[Soulgazer]

Hi. Very well said, and you say what so many are saying right now. It is indeed hard to believe all of these things about God. I don't want you to be upset about what I'm going to say, but just think about it. God is Love. John says so and the Bible attests to it all the way through. It is his nature. It's who He is from cover to cover. If you want proof of it in the OT read Jeremiah 18: 1-6. It is so awesome that, as His people, we are in His hand and he is shaping us. We can never be lost when we stay with Him.

Now some bad news (not for us, but for those that do't know God) - God is also righteous. This is also His nature and He also shows this from cover to cover and we can't get around it.
I'm going to suggest a book for you to read that addresses these concerns you have called "Erasing Hell" by Francis Chan. Francis struggled with the same things you do and eventually had to come to terms with a LOT of things. He didn't like it, and I don't like it either. But certain things about God and His nature are true. Just consider some of these things.
Peace.

Noxot is perfectly reasonable. It was the religious that Jesus called snakes and vipers. Paul said that "even to this day" which I guess could possibly mean even to this day "whenever Moses is read, a veil is over their faces". Apologist write that he was referring to the Jewish religion, in keeping with catholicism. However, if we look closely, he was writing not against the Jewish religion, but those Jewish Christians who could not let go of the Prophets. We see that even today, people get upset when the Ten commandments are taken down in federal buildings. However, as a Christian, I believe we should be more alarmed, and even ashamed, that they were ever placed there instead of the beatitudes.

An anonymous student of Paul wrote " What is (the meaning of) this mystery? John was begotten by means of a womb worn with age, but Christ passed through a virgin's womb. <> Why, then do you (pl.) err and not seek after these mysteries, which were prefigured for our sake? "