Let's Talk About Hell (4)

[createdtoworship]

I would be gla to refute anything you post.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7596146-11/#post59096239

Repost.




You obviously know nothing of Mount Zion. Mt Zion is where physical King David lived, reigned and worshipped. No it was not a place to worship for God's people. They worshiped in the Tabernacle in the wilderness at Sheoh where the other court and the inner court and the empty Holy of Holies were.

Mt Zion is where King David brought the Tabernacle of David which was the ark of God which is God's glory all thought out the OT. Every day King David lived, worshipped and reigned where God's glory abided at Mt Zion.

It is a type of the glory of God that will be poured out in the ages to come which is universal salvation.

Acts 15: 13-18 (ESV) 16(A) "'After this I will return,and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it 17that the remnant of mankind(B) may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles(C) who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things 18(D) known from of old.'

Acts 15: 13-18 (Message) James broke the silence. "Friends, listen. Simeon has told us the story of how God at the very outset made sure that racial outsiders were included. This is in perfect agreement with the words of the prophets: After this, I'm coming back; I'll rebuild David's ruined house; 　I'll put all the pieces together again; I'll make it look like new 　So outsiders who seek will find, so they'll have a place to come to, All the pagan peoples included in what I'm doing. "God said it and now he's doing it. It's no afterthought; he's always known he would do this

Acts 15: (Amp) 17So that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles upon whom My name has been invoked,

Acts 15: (HCSB) 17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord— even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,
Acts 15: 17 (NIRV) Then the rest of the people can look to the Lord. This means all the non-Jews who belong to me. The Lord says this. He is the one who does these things.' —(Amos 9:11,12)

How can someone repent until he is called? Billion and billion have not been called. look around you. Do you see Islam being called? How about the millions of native americans before columbus discoverd the Americas? Were they called? How can they repent? How about the millions of God's people in North Korea? are they called? How about the billions of natural non spiritual men who see the teachings and revelation of the Spirit of God as folly, meaningness nonsesnce. Are they called.

　　1 Corinthians 2:13-15　 14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

No God is only calling his first fruits?

non of the verses listed mention mount zion at all, it currently is the western hill extending south of the Old City in Jerusalem. Nothing more, nothing less. Yes it speaks of God's glory but it is in no way a type of anything you propose it to be. And you can't prove it from scripture, so don't even try.

secondly, only Christ is the first fruits (and you can only have ONE first fruits). There is no scripture in the Bible linking the elect with being the first fruits (no, not even revelation 14:1). You have absolutely no scriptural basis for stating the anyone other than Christ is the first fruits.

 

[NEW SONG]

non of the verses listed mention mount zion at all, it currently is the western hill extending south of the Old City in Jerusalem. Nothing more, nothing less. Yes it speaks of God's glory but it is in no way a type of anything you propose it to be. And you can't prove it from scripture, so don't even try.

You are correct. But what you are missing is the Tabernacle of David was located on Mt Zion. It is a fact of scripture and a fact of history. Mt Zon was David's home. Read your OT.

secondly you mis interpret Corinthians as well:

"But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep."
1 Cor. 15:20

Notice that it is Christ that is the firstfruits, not those to whom He has called. And you can't prove any of this from scripture so don't even try.[/

Yes Christ the head is the firstfruits but there is also a firstfruits company. Notice:

Rev. 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a[a] Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having[b] His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed[c] from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit,[d] for they are without fault before the throne of God.[e]

There is no way I am misinterpeting 1 Corin 15: I like what Ray Prinzing has to say.
"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.　 But every man in His own order; Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming." (I Cor. 15:22-23).　

There is no doubt concerning the totality of salvation for every man-- whatever was affected by death through Adam, shall be MADE ALIVE THROUGH CHRIST.　 The triumph of Christ is far greater than the sin of Adam.　 But the point that is before us is that of TIMING-- with "every man in his own order." There is DIVINE ORDER in this NEW CREATION that is being brought forth, as God gathers one by one a people unto Himself.　 From Calvary until this present time, God has been working in what is rightly termed "HIS FIRSTFRUITS." We who are living at the ending of this age (web ed. note: which still could be a long ways away) are still being drawn into this "firstfruits order." But never forget, the firstfruits of a harvest are the PROMISE that all the rest of the harvest will follow in its time.

 

[NEW SONG]

non of the verses listed mention mount zion at all, it currently is the western hill extending south of the Old City in Jerusalem. Nothing more, nothing less. Yes it speaks of God's glory but it is in no way a type of anything you propose it to be. And you can't prove it from scripture, so don't even try.

secondly, only Christ is the first fruits (and you can only have ONE first fruits). There is no scripture in the Bible linking the elect with being the first fruits (no, not even revelation 14:1). You have absolutely no scriptural basis for stating the anyone other than Christ is the first fruits.

I see you never even attempted to refute Acts 15:14-17 because it is not part of your old wine skin.

 

[NEW SONG]

your questions about the nations repenting are for God not me....


all I know is that ALL MEN, EVERYWHERE must repent, no exceptions

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:" Acts 17:30

secondly, your corinthians verse does not mention "calling" at all, so it is not talking about God "calling many"

Thirdly, Romans one mentions God calling all nations to repent of unbelief in the Godhead!

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
Romans 1:18-21 NKJV

what other sins does God condemn world wide?

"29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them."
Romans 1:29-32 NKJV


If you have questions regarding the Concept of God condemning the heathen of other cultures, read this link below from a seminary level article:

No Excuse for the Heathen (Romans 1:18-32 ) | Bible.org - Worlds Largest Bible Study Site

I have no question on the nations. That is where you lack and have no answers except condemnation. Your emphasis is on the sinner and not the power of the savior. In God's timing all will repent each in their own order.

I have no desire to read your link I am sure it has to do with a savior with no power to save as you preach.

 

[NEW SONG]

you prove nothing other than posting a conjecture regarding spiritualizing God's Holy Word!

here is a quote from Biblestudytools.com on How to interpret the Bible

"Why do we insist on normalcy in our interpretation of all of Scripture? Couch identifies a number of reasons:

Those who are committed to a normal reading of Scripture offer at least three reasons: First, the obvious purpose of language is to enable effective communication between intelligent beings. Words have meaning and in their normal usage are intended to be understood. . . . God is the originator of language. When He spoke audibly to man, He expected man to understand Him and respond accordingly. Likewise, when God speaks to man through the inspired writings of His apostles and prophets, He expects man to understand and respond accordingly. . . . A second reason for a normal reading of Scripture concerns the historical fulfillment of prophecy. All the prophecies of the Old and New Testament that have been fulfilled to date have been fulfilled literally. . . . Thus, . . . all prophecies which are yet to be fulfilled will be fulfilled literally. A third reason concerns logic. If an interpreter does not use the normal, customary, literal method of interpreting Scripture, interpretation is given over to the unconstrained imagination and presuppositions of the interpreter.6
Neglect of this last reason is most evident in the widely-varying imaginative interpretations of the non-literal interpreters. Once the “tether of normative interpretation” is cut, the helium balloon of the interpreter’s imagination floats ever further afield from the intended meaning of the text. This single factor accounts for the majority of nonsense which is offered as commentary on the book of Revelation.

As an example of how quickly those who forsake literal interpretation choose to ignore the pattern of previously-fulfilled literal prophecy, Couch’s second reason for normalcy, consider Beale’s statement which asserts that the plagues in Revelation are unlikely to be literal like those recorded elsewhere in Scripture:
...In Revelation the fire and hail are to be understood on the symbolic level as representing particular facets of divine judgment that can be drawn out further by thorough exegesis of the theological meaning of this particular Exodus plague. [These] speak of God depriving the ungodly of earthly security. [emphasis added]7
Beale denies literal fire and hail in the book of Revelation as found elsewhere in Scripture asserting that the reader is to seek for a theological meaning beyond the plain text. The fire and hail are themselves no longer important, but the theological meaning behind the text is now primary. But who determines the meaning behind the text and how is it determined? A perusal of the writings of expositors employing this approach readily reveals the enormous subjectivity which enters upon the process of answering these questions to arrive at an interpretation.

Another key advantage of normal interpretation is it is minimal, contributing the barest interpretive layer over the inspired text from God. “The best interpretation of a historical record is no interpretation but simply letting the divine Author of the record say what He says and assuming He says what He means.”8 The “thicker” the layer of interpretation required to make sense of the underlying text, the greater the danger that the commentator will wind up adding to or subtracting from the meaning intended by God (Rev. Rev. 22:18-19+).9 This minimalist interpretation is the way a reader would most likely understand the text when absent from the guidance of an allegorical interpreter.

If one were on a desert island and read Revelation for the first time, how would he normally interpret the book? The answer would be “actual and literal,” unless there was an amillennialist and allegorist around to say, “No, no, these events are not real!"

The Art and Science of Interpretation

I give you scripture and refute your art and science of intepretation and you quote some dead theologian it is no wonder we do not agree.

I am not a literalist I believe that God's Word is a spiritual word something you have no clue about. Spiritual is NOT science its devine and all the science of man will never understand its deepness. You might as well be getting your understanding from the Pope.

I like the word mystery which was written over 20 times in the NT and means sacred secret. That which is spiritual is not easlily understood by everyone it is deep and hidden.

Pro. 25: 2​

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter

​

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. example

Example: NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)
　
There are many signs and symbols hidden in GOD’S Word example Jesus is a Lamb of God; this does not mean Jesus was a bab sheep and ate grass; but where the answer to this example is both in the natural ream and then should be interpreted thought god’s spirit with in you.

Matthew 13
13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

13:14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;

13:15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'

13:16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;
　
　
　

 

[WillieH]

I give you scripture and refute your art and science of intepretation and you quote some dead theologian it is no wonder we do not agree.


I am not a literalist I believe that God's Word is a spiritual word something you have no clue about. Spiritual is NOT science its devine and all the science of man will never understand its deepness. You might as well be getting your understanding from the Pope.


I like the word mystery which was written over 20 times in the NT and means sacred secret. That which is spiritual is not easlily understood by everyone it is deep and hidden.

Pro. 25: 2​

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter




1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. example

Example: NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)
　
There are many signs and symbols hidden in GOD’S Word example Jesus is a Lamb of God; this does not mean Jesus was a bab sheep and ate grass; but where the answer to this example is both in the natural ream and then should be interpreted thought god’s spirit with in you.

Matthew 13
13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

13:14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;

13:15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'

13:16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

Just a "heads up" for you New Song...

It is your biz if you wish to continue with gradyll... I have put him on IGNORE for the very reason (and others) that you have noted above. All he does is IGNORE what is said to him, and then CUT & PASTE his tradition... I got tired of it...

Also, gradyll is an offspring of the POPE...

BTW... I really like any quote of J. Preston Eby... keep'em coming... he is quite a wise and colorful teacher!


Regardless of gradyll and LutheranMafia, there are other readers of this discussion that will garner good and truthful info from your posts, so keep on keepin on bro (sis?)


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[Sophrosyne]

Just a "heads up" for you New Song...

It is your biz if you wish to continue with gradyll... I have put him on IGNORE for the very reason (and others) that you have noted above. All he does is IGNORE what is said to him, and then CUT & PASTE his tradition... I got tired of it...

Also, gradyll is an offspring of the POPE...

BTW... I really like any quote of J. Preston Eby... keep'em coming... he is quite a wise and colorful teacher!


Regardless of gradyll and LutheranMafia, there are other readers of this discussion that will garner good and truthful info from your posts, so keep on keepin on bro (sis?)


PEACE...


...willieH

You sure have a curious idea of what ignore is....

 

[NEW SONG]

Just a "heads up" for you New Song...

It is your biz if you wish to continue with gradyll... I have put him on IGNORE for the very reason (and others) that you have noted above. All he does is IGNORE what is said to him, and then CUT & PASTE his tradition... I got tired of it...

Also, gradyll is an offspring of the POPE...

BTW... I really like any quote of J. Preston Eby... keep'em coming... he is quite a wise and colorful teacher!


Regardless of gradyll and LutheranMafia, there are other readers of this discussion that will garner good and truthful info from your posts, so keep on keepin on bro (sis?)


PEACE...


...willieH

I understand. He is full of tradition and that is all he sees. Just like the religious Jews during Jesus day their traditions made God's Word of no effect.

 

[NEW SONG]

You sure have a curious idea of what ignore is....

I totally agree with WillieH.

 

[NEW SONG]

non of the verses listed mention mount zion at all, it currently is the western hill extending south of the Old City in Jerusalem. Nothing more, nothing less. Yes it speaks of God's glory but it is in no way a type of anything you propose it to be. And you can't prove it from scripture, so don't even try.

secondly you mis interpret Corinthians as well:

"But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep."
1 Cor. 15:20

Notice that it is Christ that is the firstfruits, not those to whom He has called. And you can't prove any of this from scripture so don't even try.

Read 2nd Samuel (chapter six gets preety good)

 

[Sophrosyne]

I totally agree with WillieH.

Then apparently you haven't read enough of this thread, WillieH has said a lot of things that if you agreed with them you would have to be his sock account.

 

[Timothew]

prove it.

Because I already proved the second death is Hell (the lake of fire)

read revelation 20:14

If you won't acccept John's own words saying that the lake of fire is the second death, then nothing I say is going to convince you that the lake of fire is the second death and not hell.

At this point, I really don't care if you believe me or not. You have shown that you aren't interested in truth, you just want to argue for your side like this is contest.

 

[NEW SONG]

Then apparently you haven't read enough of this thread, WillieH has said a lot of things that if you agreed with them you would have to be his sock account.

No I have not read the whole thread but what I have seen of WillieH posting I see he is a spiritual man and seeing others here are not I am sure most have no clue of how God's Spiritual Word is written. Some here do not even know Geographically/Phyiscally where the Tabernacle of David was located.

 

[NEW SONG]

If you won't acccept John's own words saying that the lake of fire is the second death, then nothing I say is going to convince you that the lake of fire is the second death and not hell.

At this point, I really don't care if you believe me or not. You have shown that you aren't interested in truth, you just want to argue for your side like this is contest.

He totally ignored Eby posting on death killed by death, it was a direct quote from scripture.

 

[createdtoworship]

I give you scripture and refute your art and science of intepretation and you quote some dead theologian it is no wonder we do not agree.

I am not a literalist I believe that God's Word is a spiritual word something you have no clue about. Spiritual is NOT science its devine and all the science of man will never understand its deepness. You might as well be getting your understanding from the Pope.

I like the word mystery which was written over 20 times in the NT and means sacred secret. That which is spiritual is not easlily understood by everyone it is deep and hidden.

Pro. 25: 2​

It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings is to search out a matter

​

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world (age) are come. example

Example: NT:5178 a : Strong’s: tupikos (toop-ee-kos'); an adverb related to NT:5179; found only in 1 Cor 10:11: as a warning, by way of example, typologically (i.e. figuratively, as a prophetic type, a typological interpretation of Scripture)
　
There are many signs and symbols hidden in GOD’S Word example Jesus is a Lamb of God; this does not mean Jesus was a bab sheep and ate grass; but where the answer to this example is both in the natural ream and then should be interpreted thought god’s spirit with in you.

Matthew 13
13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

13:14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: 'Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;

13:15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.'

13:16 "But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;
　
　
　

if the Bible is spiritual then you need not debate your cause on this forum because you have no points to debate. (because all is spiritual anyway)

 

[createdtoworship]

Read 2nd Samuel (chapter six gets preety good)

sorry no zion in that verse either, you just can't win can you?

 

[createdtoworship]

If you won't acccept John's own words saying that the lake of fire is the second death, then nothing I say is going to convince you that the lake of fire is the second death and not hell.

At this point, I really don't care if you believe me or not. You have shown that you aren't interested in truth, you just want to argue for your side like this is contest.

what do you think the lake of fire is? Hell! What else would it be? A vacation spot? Read any commentary of your choosing and they will agree it is Hell that is spoken of.

 

[createdtoworship]

No I have not read the whole thread but what I have seen of WillieH posting I see he is a spiritual man and seeing others here are not I am sure most have no clue of how God's Spiritual Word is written. Some here do not even know Geographically/Phyiscally where the Tabernacle of David was located.

if it is spiritual, then it was located no where!

 

[NEW SONG]

if the Bible is spiritual then you need not debate your cause on this forum because you have no points to debate. (because all is spiritual anyway)

If the Bible is spiritual and you are carnal you have no reason to debate. I showed you using God's Word how scriptural is spiritual and you give me some dead theologians view point. Now your offended.

 

[NEW SONG]

sorry no zion in that verse either, you just can't win can you?

You can't put spiritual facts togeather. It may take some reaseach to figure this out out side of your dead theologians hand book. King David home was Mt Zion. The Taberncale of David was at Mt Zion.

This is basic Bible 101.