Let's Talk About Hell (4)

[NEW SONG]

I vote in favor of GRAVE... which is the correct translation of HADES, TARTARUS and SHEOL... As far as GEHENNA, it was common JEWISH knowledge that it represented a place of SHAME, ...NOT once was a LIVING person ever cast into it.


PEACE...


...willieH

Amen...

Gehenna is not physical flames, even though Gehenna is the garbage dump outside the city of Jerusalem. Gehenna Judgment is actually spiritual in nature, it is the reaping of what Isreal had sown by killing the prophets and their children in the fire to Molech and Baal at Topheth and in the Valley of Ben Hiddom (later called Gehenna). God warned that He is the only God, there is no other like Him.

Gehenna is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; a place of constant burning of refuge. Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified by God’s holy judgment.

Jersalem always speaks of God's people be in New Jersalen or the literal physical city.

If Gehenna was for thelost you think it should of been a city like Rome or Athens. But no God's Spirit choose Jersalem for its location.

 

[WillieH]

Revelation 20:14
And death and sheol were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
The second death is not hell.

Actually, the translation of this verse can (and should) be questioned. The subject and descriptions that surround a sentence can and SHOULD be interchangeable (and be placed in the sentence meaning the same thing) in any language such as:

EXAMPLES:

1. An ISLAND is a small LAND mass surrounded by WATER ...or IOW
A small LAND MASS surrounded by WATER is an ISLAND.

2. Mom cooks dinner every day at 6 o'clock'
At 6 o'clock every day, Mom cooks dinner

3. The football game was fun to watch
It was fun to watch the football game

4. Having a discussion is a TWO way interaction with words
Having a TWO way interaction with words, is a discussion



If one does this with Rev 20:14:

As is stated in the KJV:

And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire, ...this is the second death

rearranged:

This is the 2nd death, ...death and HADES were cast into the Lake of Fire.



This arrangement is in harmony with Genesis 3:19 -- which notes that MAN would DIE and RETURN to the DUST... (GRAVE)



Also... it is interesting to note that the ONLY place where HADES is translated GRAVE is in -- 1 Cor 15:54 -- Had the BIASED translators of the KJV, remained CONSISTENT (which they did NOT), then the NT would have a statement within it SAYING that: "HELL" --- gets NO VICTORY!


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[LutheranMafia]

There is TRUTH in EVERY religion (aside from "satanism") on the face of the earth. For principles of TRUTH which is ETERNAL can be found in ALL of them. There are principles of HONOR found in ALL philosphies (some more than others) which aspire to the ALMIGHTY...

And for the RECORD, ...I have never said that I "have the TRUTH", ...YOU (just) DID.

I am, just as (possibly) are you, in a progressive SEARCH for TRUTH. I spent 25 years in the "church systems"... and at one time BELIEVED (though questioned) many things which I have come to find within that SEARCH, ...to be FALSE. Yes indeed, I spent MUCH of my time approximately 25 years (figuratively) sitting right next to you, bro.


Only GOD knows the TRUTH... and Only GOD, reveals it to whomsoever He shall... but ONLY THOSE who SEARCH with the WHOLE HEART, shall find the TRUTH... Those who "are in a half-hearted, once in awhile, when I have time"... "SEARCH"... will NOT find it.


GOD calls us to REASON with HIM -- Isaiah 1:18 -- so if any portion of our views is devoid of REASON...then those views must be QUESTIONED, then DISCARDED. And the observation which includes REASON... sought after in our on-going SEARCH (incorporating the WHOLE HEART)!


If you go to church on Sunday, and confess your sins... then leave church and go about your fleshly LIFE, then repeat the process on the next "Sunday"... you are hardly "SEARCHING" at all... and more importantly, LYING to YOURSELF, that you are doing so...





FIRST --- I am no more "full of myself", than are you, brother LM...

Do you "have the "TRUTH"? And if you DO NOT... then are you thereby REJECTING what has been presented you in the areas which you DO NOT "have the TRUTH", ...and SEARCHING for IT with your WHOLE HEART? ...on a DAILY basis? If you are NOT, then your "SEARCH" is "half-hearted", not "whole hearted"...

Don't get me wrong. I have spent much of my time in a "half-hearted" SEARCH... and do not hold myself over you (or anyone else) in any way. But I am about RECOMMENDING that, ...ASAP... you get into a DAILY SEARCH of the WORD... reading, comparing, researching, DILIGENTLY.

I would ask you:

When you come upon CORRECTION of your present view (as you "SEARCH"), ...do you inspect the "correction" by comparing it with Scripture elsewhere in order to VERIFY it via the "2-3 witnesses" principle? And when your PREVIOUS belief, is thereby "CORRECTED", do you DROP that PREVIOUS BELIEF? Well, DOYA?

SELF DELUSION, is the most common state of the human heart -- Jer 17:9 -- which is DECEITFUL (even to ITSELF) ABOVE ...ALL THINGS...

And MANY if not MOST... are amidst that SELF-DECEIT... which is not really "SEEKING" and "SEARCHING", at all... but is mostly a member of a SOCIAL CLUB that meets once a week on Sunday or Saturday (depending on which denomination you might be affiliated with)




SECOND --- There never was, nor EVER will be, a "NEW" truth! You should already KNOW this if indeed you ARE truly SEARCHING for TRUTH!


To hear a revelation of that which is ETERNAL from the WORD, is not EVER something "NEW"! Not even! It is WONDEROUS gifting from the ETERNAL which has ALWAYS BEEN as it ...IS... not NEW, nor OLD, just ALWAYS TRUE


For me, it is a great HONOR to hear the GIFT of TRUTH being shared with me! If you are NOT SEARCHING to LEARN more, then you are NOT SEARCHING! And if THINGS might enter into your ears that you have never before HEARD, ...is that not what the SEARCH is ALL ABOUT, LM?


Yes, it is absolutely necessary to EXAMINE these "REVELATIONS" with other Scripture before EMBRACING them, but THAT TOO is part of the SEARCH, is it NOT?


The JEWS rejected CHRIST... because He spoke of "NEW" things which were CONTRARY to their RELIGION... and yet, you think to be different than they? Nah, ...You are EXACTLY as were THEY...


And if you find ANYTHING within the things which you BELIEVE are UNREASONABLE and IGNORE that discrepancy, ...then you FAIL to heed the instruction of the SCRIPTURES which CALL you unto REASON -- Isaiah 1:18 -- Is that what you do, LM? If that is what you DO... then obviously you have not HEARD the CALL... ...without ...EARS to HEAR... Left to yourSELF and to the PRIDE which engulfs you.



PRIDE of TRADITION, as was found in the JEWS, is also found in her daughter, the CHRISTIAN church... which instead of SEARCHING with the WHOLE HEART... goes to church each Sunday (wrong day of worship, btw), and sings a few choruses, speaks a little in tongues, swallows the ENTIRE SERMON of ONE MAN in one gulp... and then goes home, thinking he/she is cleansed, having EATEN his/her "once a week meal"... and has accomplished his/her "SEARCH" for the week...


LAYING comfortably in the BABYLONIAN lap of the DECEIT of the harlot -- Rev 17:5-- Drinking the wine of her FORNICATIONS...

The TV Evangelists and the HIERARCHY of each "denomination" are clearly spoken of here ---> Rev 18:3 -- to which GOD CALLS... "come out of HER my people" -- Rev 18:4 -- and goes on to say -- Rev 18:5 -- for HER SINS have reached unto Heaven, and GOD hath remembered HER INIQUITIES -- Matt 7:22-23



Failing to SEEK (sometimes not even bothering until "Sunday")... thinking that "wonderful works" have been done in that 2-3 hour period in Church... or that are found IN the MONEY which MANY percieve has been generously and righteously given to the poor -- Matt 7:22-23


This "MANY" shall find deep REGRET and REJECTION... and of one thing you can be SURE my friend, ...I shall not be counted amongst them!


YOU are more than welcome to your present course... Your life is yours... to waste or prosper as you might... But when it comes to the conclusion... no excuses BY ANY MAN, ...shall be considered... Please think about it.


What you do or say, does not in the least matter to me.


How your life is seen by GOD is between you and Him... But if you are depending on the PASTOR to hold your hand when you face YHVH... you are in for a big surprise. Each of us shall stand before Him... and though I have likely some UNREVEALED aspects to my viewpoints, they are not EXISTENT because I was "satisfied" with what the CHURCH taught, because I was "accepted" by them, and LOVED by them...


I would rather be LOVED by YHVH (one), then to be LOVED by ALL HUMANITY. Knowing that in my IMPERFECTION... I diligently sought HIM and HIS PERFECTION ...DAILY... not once a week.


My BIBLE is practically shredded from use... half of it marked up in places I have been within it.... and it is THAT BIBLE which is the witness to my LIFE... How about you LM?

You choose which is important to you... AGAIN, it doesn't matter to me what "you choose"!


PEACE...


...willieH

Do you really think that I have the time to read all of that?!

If you do you are sadly mistaken.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Revelation 20:14
And death and sheol were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
The second death is not hell.

This is unusually preceptive for you. So what is the second death vs. the lake of fire, in your perspective?

 

[WillieH]

To believe that Jesus is going to torture billions upon billions of people He never called forever and ever is but a lack of spiritual decernment. It is the same as Jews during Jesus day whos traditions made God's Word of no effect.

Religious man is so caught up with the traditions and creeds and dogmas there is no room for divine truth. It is like a vessel full of old wine; there is no room for the new wine of the spirit.

Their whole approach to the Bible is totally wrong this is obviously by the fact you they cannot receive the new wine of the spirit or the revelation of God’s Word. His spiritual Word has always been their but men understand only the letter that killeth.

You sit and discuss all the belief you have been taught though out the ages from one generation to another and hang on to these beliefs as if they were the truth; but in actually all you have created is a dogma or creed that hold little truth, When some out side of that nest tries to show you something wrong using God’s Word you cannot receive it. Just like the Jews during Jesus day the same pattern continues by religious men; that is why so many verses in God’s do not fit in your warn out wine skin. God’s Word is a progressive Word, a spiritual Word it flows and grows like the old hymn "There is a River that flows from deep with in"

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Well said!!!

GOD reveals His WORD, ...to whom HE chooses, ...when HE chooses, and ...as MUCH as HE chooses...



PEACE...


...willieH

 

[LutheranMafia]

(I guess I am not much like an atheist at all.)

You are like an atheist in that you see death as a sinkhole that robs people of spiritual attainment.

I don't believe that death is uplifting. Death is the opposite of uplifting. Christ is uplifting, He lifts us up from death when He raises us to eternal life.

So death robs us of Christ? That is your argument?

I have faith that Christ will resurrect us and give us eternal life. This is a belief that builds up faith. Telling someone they are going to hell to be tortured by God for all eternity tears down faith.

Spiritual justice tears down faith??! There are those who reject Love in any way shape or form, and there is no place in salvation for them.

The first question I would ask is why would I want to be with someone who tortures others?

It is justice for those who reject Love. If you reject Love there is no place in God's presence for you, and that is not annihilation. It is simply being cast out from God's presence, which never ceases.

 

[WillieH]

Do you really think that I have the time to read all of that?!

If you do you are sadly mistaken.

Slow reader, eh? ...

If SUCH a small amount of words is IMPOSING to you and "your time", ... it is quite LIKELY thatyou have never READ a BOOK!

It HARDLY "saddens" me that you do not have the time and ability to absorb what I said... Please!

Don't flatter yourself, ...whenever I write, it is for those who are actually SEARCHING and are interested in ideas they have not considered in their SEARCH, ...not for those who think they already KNOW-IT-ALL, ...and have NOTHING further to LEARN... (much like the Pharisees in JESUS time, eh?)


PEACE...


...willieH

 

[Timothew]

This is unusually preceptive for you. So what is the second death vs. the lake of fire, in your perspective?

Well, according to John (and he wrote the Book of Revelation), the Lake of Fire IS the second death. To me this means that the Lake of Fire can't be the place of eternal torment that people call Hell, because it is the second death.

 

[WillieH]

So death robs us of Christ? That is your argument?

Hmmm... ....is not CHRIST - [John 14:6] -- "the way, the truth, and ........the LIFE"?

Is it "YOUR ARGUEMENT" that JESUS is other than the LIFE?

Try this one on for size:

John 1:9 -- that was the true LIGHT that LIGHTETH ...EVERY MAN... that cometh into the WORLD


Is not that "LIGHT", ...LIFE? ...come from the LIVING WORD?

PEACE...


...willieH

 

[Timothew]

You are like an atheist in that you see death as a sinkhole that robs people of spiritual attainment.

No, I see death as a sinkhole that robs people of life.

So death robs us of Christ? That is your argument?

No. And that is not what I said. Christ is able to lift out from death into life. I mean this quite literally. Just as Christ was able to literally give life back to Lazarus, He can bring us back to life at the resurrection.

Spiritual justice tears down faith??! There are those who reject Love in any way shape or form, and there is no place in salvation for them.

You keep twisting my words. Why is that? Am I a Universalist? Have I ever said that everyone gets salvation? When did I ever say "spiritual justice tears down faith?" I'm saying that the false teaching of hell tears down faith because it changes the God of love into a torturing god.

It is justice for those who reject Love. If you reject Love there is no place in God's presence for you, and that is not annihilation. It is simply being cast out from God's presence, which never ceases.

Where do you get this stuff from? The bible says that the wages of sin is death. The bible says that the unrepentant pay the penalty of eternal destruction.

 

[NEW SONG]

No, I see death as a sinkhole that robs people of life.


No. And that is not what I said. Christ is able to lift out from death into life. I mean this quite literally. Just as Christ was able to literally give life back to Lazarus, He can bring us back to life at the resurrection.

You keep twisting my words. Why is that? Am I a Universalist? Have I ever said that everyone gets salvation? When did I ever say "spiritual justice tears down faith?" I'm saying that the false teaching of hell tears down faith because it changes the God of love into a torturing god.

Where do you get this stuff from? The bible says that the wages of sin is death. The bible says that the unrepentant pay the penalty of eternal destruction.

The Book of Revelation is not a literal book to be taken literal but it the most spiritual book ever written. I post the following on post 955 here it is again.

I like how J Preston Eby put it.

The fourth horse, the Pale Horse. "And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, come and see. And I looked, and lo a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with the sword (Word of God), and with hunger (lack of spiritual food), and with death, and with the beasts of the earth (our beastly carnal nature." (Rev. 6:7-8).

There is a significance to the description of the fourth horseman -- he whose name is Death -- and Hell followed with him. Death and Hades are specially linked in the Revelation.

Christ destroyed him that had the power of death, that is, the devil (Heb. 2:14), Christ came and abolished death (II Tim. 1:10) He now boldly proclaims: "I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the KEYS OF HELL AND OF DEATH" (Rev. 1:18).

And since the Christ now possesses both hades and death neither of them ride anywhere except by His power and will!

This horse is given power over the fourth part of the earth-realm, to kill with the sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

This "fourth part of the earth" is clearly that portion of earthiness not already dealt with by the three preceding horses. It means the final destruction of everything within us that is contrary to HIS life and kingdom. To kill with DEATH There is an amazing statement in the passage that we do not want to miss. "And power was given unto Him to kill...with death."!

How does Jesus kill with death? "Our God is a consuming fire. To kill with death means a death by death. Later on in the book of Revelation the same truth is presented thus: "Death and hell were cast into the lake of Fire. This is the second death" (Rev. 20:14).

Now let us turn this around for clarity. "The second death IS death and hell cast into the lake of fire." Therefore we have exactly the same meaning either way it is stated. What is the second death? It is the first death and hell cast into the lake of fire! " This fact is extremely IMPORTANT. The second death is not merely the lake of fire. Nor is the second death men being tortured forever in the lake of fire.

The second death is the first death and hell CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE. That is the God's Spirit's definition, not mine. Can we now open the eyes of our understanding to see that everything cast into the lake of fire pertains to DEATH? Death itself is cast into the lake of fire.
Hades, the realm of the dead, is cast into the lake of fire.
And those whose names are not written in the Book of Life, i.e. those who are dead, in trespasses and in sins, who inhabit hades, are cast into the lake of fire.

This is the end of death and hades and sin and sinners, for God shall destroy the whole realm of death in the lake of fire. He shall burn up hell in the lake of fire, He shall destroy death in the lake of fire, and He shall consume sin in the lake of fire. How I long to see the end of sin and death and hades!

It is clear that God does not destroy men in the lake of fire, nowhere does it say that, for that would be a contradiction of terms. How can you destroy death by creating death? How can you abolish death by bringing men under the power of eternal death from which there is no escape? Oh, no, it is not men who are destroyed in the lake of fire -- it is sin and death and hades that are destroyed.

"And the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (I Cor. 15:26). "And there shall be no more death: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4). Thus, the lake of fire is nothing more nor less than THE DEATH OF DEATH! "And power was given unto them to kill...with death. " 0, the wonder of it!

 

[createdtoworship]

Revelation 20:14
And death and sheol were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
The second death is not hell.

prove it.

Because I already proved the second death is Hell (the lake of fire)

read revelation 20:14

 

[createdtoworship]

Every scripture you quoted here has been refuted over and over again to you but you still have not the spiritual decernment to understand the deep things are God are hidden.


MT Zion is Universal Salvation. Do you understand this?

Firstly,
please give post # were rebuttals have been given, if you can. Rather, what has happened is that the others, like you have passed the buck.

secondly, here is another post that no one answered (post 865)...
http://www.christianforums.com/t7596146-11/#post59096239


thirdly,
Mt zion was a place of worship for God's people, not universal salvation. Universal salvation doesn't exist because there are over 100 verses in the Bible speaking of repentance unto salvation. How can salvation be universal if God commands repentance in order to be saved, it Can't.

 

[createdtoworship]

To believe that Jesus is going to torture billions upon billions of people He never called forever and ever is but a lack of spiritual decernment. It is the same as Jews during Jesus day whos traditions made God's Word of no effect.

Religious man is so caught up with the traditions and creeds and dogmas there is no room for divine truth. It is like a vessel full of old wine; there is no room for the new wine of the spirit.

Their whole approach to the Bible is totally wrong this is obviously by the fact you they cannot receive the new wine of the spirit or the revelation of God’s Word. His spiritual Word has always been their but men understand only the letter that killeth.

You sit and discuss all the belief you have been taught though out the ages from one generation to another and hang on to these beliefs as if they were the truth; but in actually all you have created is a dogma or creed that hold little truth, When some out side of that nest tries to show you something wrong using God’s Word you cannot receive it. Just like the Jews during Jesus day the same pattern continues by religious men; that is why so many verses in God’s do not fit in your warn out wine skin. God’s Word is a progressive Word, a spiritual Word it flows and grows like the old hymn "There is a River that flows from deep with in"

Mark 7:13
Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Colossians 2:8
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

correction: He "calls" all people to be saved, but He chooses only the few that will believe and repent.

"For many are called, but few are chosen."
matthew 22:14

1 Timothy 2:3-4 NKJV
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 NKJV
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is long-suffering toward us,[a] not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

(God doesn't save all, but it is His will that ALL repent- but many won't)

Secondly, traditions are not bad because they are tradition. Rather the context of scripture dictates it was the legalistic traditions of the letter that killeth. Christmas is a tradition, and it is a celebration of Christ's birth! How can this tradition be sinful simply because it is a tradition? So not all tradition is wrong, only the ones that are un-scriptural and Pharisaical.

 

[NEW SONG]

correction: He "calls" all people to be saved, but He chooses only the few that will believe and repent.

Wrong...

God is calling out a people to do His will; only His firstfruits each in the own order/arrangement/troop

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
　​

(order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:
If God does not call you, you cannot come.
　

Yes God is calling all men; but not now. When the Bible speaks of firstfruits it is speaking his elect note Rev. 14:1

Rev. 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a[a] Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having[b] His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed[c] from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit,[d] for they are without fault before the throne of God.[e]
　
The firstfruits are God’s Elect/ the overcomers who will rule and reign with Christ; they will become Kings and Priest for the remainder of all mankind; who are being called according to God’s timing. There are all kinds of scripture sprinkled thought out God’s Word how this will be accomplished; below is Acts 15:16-18 is one example.

Acts 15:16-18
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue (remainder) of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the wor
KJV
　

"For many are called, but few are chosen."
matthew 22:14

Again this is not address the all we see in 1 Corin. 15: I just posted.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 NKJV
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Amen. If God desires it it will be done for His will will be done in earth as it is in heaven.

2 Peter 3:9 NKJV
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is long-suffering toward us,[a] not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

If God is not will none will perish none will perish.

(God doesn't save all, but it is His will that ALL repent- but many won't)

Why would they repent the were never called they are not spiritual. Why would a non spiritual man care about repenting the things of God are foolishness to his carnal earthy mind.

　　　1 Corinthians 2:14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

Secondly, traditions are not bad because they are tradition. Rather the context of scripture dictates it was the legalistic traditions of the letter that killeth. Christmas is a tradition, and it is a celebration of Christ's birth! How can this tradition be sinful simply because it is a tradition? So not all tradition is wrong, only the ones that are un-scriptural and Pharisaical.

Because tradition looks back for truth. Revelation looks forward for truth.
God's Word is like a river that flows and gets deeper and deeper not a broken cistern.

The religious Mind:
Then we have the religious mind, which is far closer to carnal them spiritual; this mind is not open unless you agree with their preconceived idealism, being it Catholic, Pentecostal, JW or Baptist this mind has the mind of what ever agenda listed above or one of the twenty thousand sisters of Babylon. They say they are following Christ (which means anointing) but in reality all they know is their preconceived bias.
God’s Word is like a river that flows:

Ezekiel 47: 4Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.
5Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.
　
How deep is your river; up to your ankles or knees; or is it so deep and mighty all you can do is float as if flows and gets deep and wider continually.
　
I cannot and will not fit God’s Word in a man made box; it is like a river that flows and gets deeper and deeper; in fact so deep at times you cannot no longer stand; that is where faith comes in.

Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

I look around at the vast majority of God’s awesome people who remind me more of Lawyers defending the law according to the way they have been taught no matter how evil the law is. There is no room in their religious brain to dig deeper, or explore the most awesome book ever written; words like "new" scare them.

Broken Cisterns is all they have; Jeremiah had it totally right. To look beyond those man made principles is so contrary to established creeds and doctrine; they are just like the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages. Luther was a man who was called of God; Luther was not perfect; but Luther did something most Christians refuse to do; hear God and walk with the principles God had given Him. Lutherans today hear Luther and walk with the principle Luther taught them, and do not comprehend God’s Spirit has moved beyond Luther and his dead creed and dogmas. The Bible is not a law Book; but a living moving book that goes beyond the principles man made established icons.


　

 

[NEW SONG]

Firstly,
please give post # were rebuttals have been given, if you can. Rather, what has happened is that the others, like you have passed the buck.

secondly, here is another post that no one answered (post 865)...

I would be gla to refute anything you post.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7596146-11/#post59096239

http://www.christianforums.com/t7596146-11/#post59096239

http://www.christianforums.com/t7596146-11/#post59096239

Repost.

thirdly,
Mt zion was a place of worship for God's people, not universal salvation. Universal salvation doesn't exist because there are over 100 verses in the Bible speaking of repentance unto salvation. How can salvation be universal if God commands repentance in order to be saved, it Can't.

You obviously know nothing of Mount Zion. Mt Zion is where physical King David lived, reigned and worshipped. No it was not a place to worship for God's people. They worshiped in the Tabernacle in the wilderness at Sheoh where the other court and the inner court and the empty Holy of Holies were.

Mt Zion is where King David brought the Tabernacle of David which was the ark of God which is God's glory all thought out the OT. Every day King David lived, worshipped and reigned where God's glory abided at Mt Zion.

It is a type of the glory of God that will be poured out in the ages to come which is universal salvation.

Acts 15: 13-18 (ESV) 16(A) "'After this I will return,and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it 17that the remnant of mankind(B) may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles(C) who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things 18(D) known from of old.'

Acts 15: 13-18 (Message) James broke the silence. "Friends, listen. Simeon has told us the story of how God at the very outset made sure that racial outsiders were included. This is in perfect agreement with the words of the prophets: After this, I'm coming back; I'll rebuild David's ruined house; 　I'll put all the pieces together again; I'll make it look like new 　So outsiders who seek will find, so they'll have a place to come to, All the pagan peoples included in what I'm doing. "God said it and now he's doing it. It's no afterthought; he's always known he would do this

Acts 15: (Amp) 17So that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles upon whom My name has been invoked,

Acts 15: (HCSB) 17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord— even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,
Acts 15: 17 (NIRV) Then the rest of the people can look to the Lord. This means all the non-Jews who belong to me. The Lord says this. He is the one who does these things.' —(Amos 9:11,12)

How can someone repent until he is called? Billion and billion have not been called. look around you. Do you see Islam being called? How about the millions of native americans before columbus discoverd the Americas? Were they called? How can they repent? How about the millions of God's people in North Korea? are they called? How about the billions of natural non spiritual men who see the teachings and revelation of the Spirit of God as folly, meaningness nonsesnce. Are they called.

　　1 Corinthians 2:13-15　 14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

No God is only calling his first fruits?

 

[NEW SONG]

prove it.

Because I already proved the second death is Hell (the lake of fire)

read revelation 20:14

I just did. Read post 971 and refute it if I am so wrong.

 

[createdtoworship]

I just did. Read post 971 and refute it if I am so wrong.

you prove nothing other than posting a conjecture regarding spiritualizing God's Holy Word!

here is a quote from Biblestudytools.com on How to interpret the Bible

"Why do we insist on normalcy in our interpretation of all of Scripture? Couch identifies a number of reasons:

Those who are committed to a normal reading of Scripture offer at least three reasons: First, the obvious purpose of language is to enable effective communication between intelligent beings. Words have meaning and in their normal usage are intended to be understood. . . . God is the originator of language. When He spoke audibly to man, He expected man to understand Him and respond accordingly. Likewise, when God speaks to man through the inspired writings of His apostles and prophets, He expects man to understand and respond accordingly. . . . A second reason for a normal reading of Scripture concerns the historical fulfillment of prophecy. All the prophecies of the Old and New Testament that have been fulfilled to date have been fulfilled literally. . . . Thus, . . . all prophecies which are yet to be fulfilled will be fulfilled literally. A third reason concerns logic. If an interpreter does not use the normal, customary, literal method of interpreting Scripture, interpretation is given over to the unconstrained imagination and presuppositions of the interpreter.6
Neglect of this last reason is most evident in the widely-varying imaginative interpretations of the non-literal interpreters. Once the “tether of normative interpretation” is cut, the helium balloon of the interpreter’s imagination floats ever further afield from the intended meaning of the text. This single factor accounts for the majority of nonsense which is offered as commentary on the book of Revelation.

As an example of how quickly those who forsake literal interpretation choose to ignore the pattern of previously-fulfilled literal prophecy, Couch’s second reason for normalcy, consider Beale’s statement which asserts that the plagues in Revelation are unlikely to be literal like those recorded elsewhere in Scripture:
...In Revelation the fire and hail are to be understood on the symbolic level as representing particular facets of divine judgment that can be drawn out further by thorough exegesis of the theological meaning of this particular Exodus plague. [These] speak of God depriving the ungodly of earthly security. [emphasis added]7
Beale denies literal fire and hail in the book of Revelation as found elsewhere in Scripture asserting that the reader is to seek for a theological meaning beyond the plain text. The fire and hail are themselves no longer important, but the theological meaning behind the text is now primary. But who determines the meaning behind the text and how is it determined? A perusal of the writings of expositors employing this approach readily reveals the enormous subjectivity which enters upon the process of answering these questions to arrive at an interpretation.

Another key advantage of normal interpretation is it is minimal, contributing the barest interpretive layer over the inspired text from God. “The best interpretation of a historical record is no interpretation but simply letting the divine Author of the record say what He says and assuming He says what He means.”8 The “thicker” the layer of interpretation required to make sense of the underlying text, the greater the danger that the commentator will wind up adding to or subtracting from the meaning intended by God (Rev. Rev. 22:18-19+).9 This minimalist interpretation is the way a reader would most likely understand the text when absent from the guidance of an allegorical interpreter.

If one were on a desert island and read Revelation for the first time, how would he normally interpret the book? The answer would be “actual and literal,” unless there was an amillennialist and allegorist around to say, “No, no, these events are not real!"

The Art and Science of Interpretation

 

[createdtoworship]

Wrong...

God is calling out a people to do His will; only His firstfruits each in the own order/arrangement/troop

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
　​

(order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:
If God does not call you, you cannot come.
　

Yes God is calling all men; but not now. When the Bible speaks of firstfruits it is speaking his elect note Rev. 14:1

Rev. 14:1 Then I looked, and behold, a[a] Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having[b] His Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a voice from heaven, like the voice of many waters, and like the voice of loud thunder. And I heard the sound of harpists playing their harps. 3 They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. 4 These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed[c] from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no deceit,[d] for they are without fault before the throne of God.[e]
　
The firstfruits are God’s Elect/ the overcomers who will rule and reign with Christ; they will become Kings and Priest for the remainder of all mankind; who are being called according to God’s timing. There are all kinds of scripture sprinkled thought out God’s Word how this will be accomplished; below is Acts 15:16-18 is one example.

Acts 15:16-18
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue (remainder) of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the wor
KJV
　



Again this is not address the all we see in 1 Corin. 15: I just posted.



Amen. If God desires it it will be done for His will will be done in earth as it is in heaven.




If God is not will none will perish none will perish.



Why would they repent the were never called they are not spiritual. Why would a non spiritual man care about repenting the things of God are foolishness to his carnal earthy mind.

　　　1 Corinthians 2:14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.



Because tradition looks back for truth. Revelation looks forward for truth.
God's Word is like a river that flows and gets deeper and deeper not a broken cistern.

The religious Mind:
Then we have the religious mind, which is far closer to carnal them spiritual; this mind is not open unless you agree with their preconceived idealism, being it Catholic, Pentecostal, JW or Baptist this mind has the mind of what ever agenda listed above or one of the twenty thousand sisters of Babylon. They say they are following Christ (which means anointing) but in reality all they know is their preconceived bias.
God’s Word is like a river that flows:

Ezekiel 47: 4Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through the waters; the waters were to the knees. Again he measured a thousand, and brought me through; the waters were to the loins.
5Afterward he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not pass over: for the waters were risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed over.
　
How deep is your river; up to your ankles or knees; or is it so deep and mighty all you can do is float as if flows and gets deep and wider continually.
　
I cannot and will not fit God’s Word in a man made box; it is like a river that flows and gets deeper and deeper; in fact so deep at times you cannot no longer stand; that is where faith comes in.

Jeremiah 2:13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

I look around at the vast majority of God’s awesome people who remind me more of Lawyers defending the law according to the way they have been taught no matter how evil the law is. There is no room in their religious brain to dig deeper, or explore the most awesome book ever written; words like "new" scare them.

Broken Cisterns is all they have; Jeremiah had it totally right. To look beyond those man made principles is so contrary to established creeds and doctrine; they are just like the Catholic Church in the Dark Ages. Luther was a man who was called of God; Luther was not perfect; but Luther did something most Christians refuse to do; hear God and walk with the principles God had given Him. Lutherans today hear Luther and walk with the principle Luther taught them, and do not comprehend God’s Spirit has moved beyond Luther and his dead creed and dogmas. The Bible is not a law Book; but a living moving book that goes beyond the principles man made established icons.


　

your questions about the nations repenting are for God not me....


all I know is that ALL MEN, EVERYWHERE must repent, no exceptions

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:" Acts 17:30

secondly, your corinthians verse does not mention "calling" at all, so it is not talking about God "calling many"

Thirdly, Romans one mentions God calling all nations to repent of unbelief in the Godhead!

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened."
Romans 1:18-21 NKJV

what other sins does God condemn world wide?

"29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them."
Romans 1:29-32 NKJV


If you have questions regarding the Concept of God condemning the heathen of other cultures, read this link below from a seminary level article:

http://bible.org/seriespage/no-excuse-heathen-romans-118-32

 

[createdtoworship]

I would be gla to refute anything you post.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7596146-11/#post59096239

Repost.




You obviously know nothing of Mount Zion. Mt Zion is where physical King David lived, reigned and worshipped. No it was not a place to worship for God's people. They worshiped in the Tabernacle in the wilderness at Sheoh where the other court and the inner court and the empty Holy of Holies were.

Mt Zion is where King David brought the Tabernacle of David which was the ark of God which is God's glory all thought out the OT. Every day King David lived, worshipped and reigned where God's glory abided at Mt Zion.

It is a type of the glory of God that will be poured out in the ages to come which is universal salvation.

Acts 15: 13-18 (ESV) 16(A) "'After this I will return,and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen;I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it 17that the remnant of mankind(B) may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles(C) who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things 18(D) known from of old.'

Acts 15: 13-18 (Message) James broke the silence. "Friends, listen. Simeon has told us the story of how God at the very outset made sure that racial outsiders were included. This is in perfect agreement with the words of the prophets: After this, I'm coming back; I'll rebuild David's ruined house; 　I'll put all the pieces together again; I'll make it look like new 　So outsiders who seek will find, so they'll have a place to come to, All the pagan peoples included in what I'm doing. "God said it and now he's doing it. It's no afterthought; he's always known he would do this

Acts 15: (Amp) 17So that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles upon whom My name has been invoked,

Acts 15: (HCSB) 17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord— even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,
Acts 15: 17 (NIRV) Then the rest of the people can look to the Lord. This means all the non-Jews who belong to me. The Lord says this. He is the one who does these things.' —(Amos 9:11,12)

How can someone repent until he is called? Billion and billion have not been called. look around you. Do you see Islam being called? How about the millions of native americans before columbus discoverd the Americas? Were they called? How can they repent? How about the millions of God's people in North Korea? are they called? How about the billions of natural non spiritual men who see the teachings and revelation of the Spirit of God as folly, meaningness nonsesnce. Are they called.

　　1 Corinthians 2:13-15　 14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

No God is only calling his first fruits?

non of the verses listed mention mount zion at all, it currently is the western hill extending south of the Old City in Jerusalem. Nothing more, nothing less. Yes it speaks of God's glory but it is in no way a type of anything you propose it to be. And you can't prove it from scripture, so don't even try.

secondly you mis interpret Corinthians as well:

"But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep."
1 Cor. 15:20

Notice that it is Christ that is the firstfruits, not those to whom He has called. And you can't prove any of this from scripture so don't even try.