Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[Truth_Warrior]

I don't mean to offend, but this bit about paradise, heaven etc. is manna kept over a day. Full of worms, earthly sensual deceptive. This is not pasture and Christ has not led you hear. There is only one thing on the menu ... Lamb.

In Gods Word he uses words for a reason and there is huge difference between Paradise and Heaven.

Gods Word is a collection of words to convey to us his Word and that written Word is what we have as the only source for truth on earth.

If a person confuses those words then it is up to us to speak up and not allow a person to be in error.

If the difference between Paradise and Heaven is just worm ridden manna to you, then I am thinking you have very little respect for what God says and means in his perfect matchless Word.

If God says heaven,he means heaven.
If God says Paradise he means Paradise.

In Genesis was Adam in heaven or Paradise?(or does it really matter)

You see, God says what he means, and means what he says, and has a purpose for what he says,why he says it,when he says it,and to whom he says it.

 

[he-man]

In Gods Word he uses words for a reason and there is huge difference between Paradise and Heaven.
Gods Word is a collection of words to convey to us his Word and that written Word is what we have as the only source for truth on earth.
If a person confuses those words then it is up to us to speak up and not allow a person to be in error.
If the difference between Paradise and Heaven is just worm ridden manna to you, then I am thinking you have very little respect for what God says and means in his perfect matchless Word.
If God says heaven,he means heaven.
If God says Paradise he means Paradise.
In Genesis was Adam in heaven or Paradise?(or does it really matter)
You see, God says what he means, and means what he says, and has a purpose for what he says,why he says it,when he says it,and to whom he says it.

Great! That is why it says:
Mat 5:5Blessed the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Psa 37:11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Psa 37:9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

At his coming, for he must reign on earth, otherwise what kingdom can be delivered up to God, even the Father; until all enemies are destroyed or placed under his authority.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

According to your philosophy, there is no longer any death or dying in this world, even for murderers, liars, and etc.

What, then does it mean "through death he might destroy him that had the power of death", when it is stated that God alone has the power of death? Deut. 32:39-42

Also what did the immolation of flesh and blood have to do with him dying? Was it not a very weak way to attempt to ward off a supernatural devil, by simply dying?

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.
Joshua, the high priest; and Zerubbabel the governor. These are anointed - appointed by the Lord; and stand by him, the one to minister in the ecclesiastical, the other in the civil state.[JFB]

God is governor of all and Christ is the anointed Priest

Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Isa 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Gen 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh:[Jehovah to see to it] as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

28:15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

Gen 35:12 And the land which I gave Abraham and Isaac, to thee I will give it, and to thy seed after thee will I give the land.

Amen Amen, even so, come quickly, Lord Jesus!

 

[LutheranMafia]

I think Jesus went to Heaven first, and then decsended into Hell for three days.

What you think means nothing.

Prove that Jesus went to heaven first,not what you think.

The scriptures are clear, Jesus went straight to Heaven first. Your interpretation would make Jesus liar. Pagan's can believe that Jesus was lying, but not Christians. This is not bashing, you truly have a serious flaw in your reasoning that makes Jesus into a liar.

If I say I think Jesus went to Starbucks first does not make it so.

It says that Jesus went to Paradise, which clearly isn't Hell. You claim that Jesus went straight to Hell, but that makes Jesus a liar and you have no proof of this, so accusing Jesus of lying without proof puts a much greater burden on your argument than on mine.

 

[LutheranMafia]

In Gods Word he uses words for a reason and there is huge difference between Paradise and Heaven.

You need to read 2 Corinthians 12:2-4.

...such a one was caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words...
Corinthians 12:2-4
​

Heaven and Paradise are explicitly linked here, the New King James version even capitalizes the word Paradise to make it clear that Heaven is being spoken of.

If God says heaven,he means heaven.
If God says Paradise he means Paradise.

You are relegating the word Paradise to meaninglessness. God's word does not contain any meaningless concepts.

In Genesis was Adam in heaven or Paradise?(or does it really matter)

Where is the Garden of Eden called Paradise? What version of the Bible are you using?

 

[LutheranMafia]

Also there is Luke 23:46.

"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."
Luke 23:46
​

This clearly indicates that initially Jesus went to Heaven first before going to Sheol for three days.

 

[Mikecpking]

Also there is Luke 23:46.

"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit."
Luke 23:46
​

This clearly indicates that initially Jesus went to Heaven first before going to Sheol for three days.

Hi Lutherianmafia,
This is a mistake. 'Spirit' is the breath of God, not Jesus the person nor some immaterial essence that is a person.

Job 27:3 clears up what a spirit is.

Job 27:3

King James Version (KJV)


3All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;


Ecclesiates 3:18-20 defines spirit as 'breath as well.

Ecclesiastes 3:18-20

New International Version (NIV)


18 I also said to myself, “As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath[a]; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.
Footnotes:

1. Ecclesiastes 3:19 Or spirit

Jesus went straight to sheol 9the grave) and laid there for 3 days until the resurrection and only after being resurrected, he ascended to heaven.

 

[Mikecpking]

You need to read 2 Corinthians 12:2-4.

...such a one was caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words...
Corinthians 12:2-4
​

Heaven and Paradise are explicitly linked here, the New King James version even capitalizes the word Paradise to make it clear that Heaven is being spoken of.

You are relegating the word Paradise to meaninglessness. God's word does not contain any meaningless concepts.


Where is the Garden of Eden called Paradise? What version of the Bible are you using?

The biblical 'Paradise' means a 'walled garden'.

Here is a google search link and you will find the references. But the general theme seems to be a restoration of the state of the garden of Eden.

Google

 

[LutheranMafia]

The biblical 'Paradise' means a 'walled garden'.

No it doesn't. Where did you pull these chicken feathers from?

Here is a google search link and you will find the references. But the general theme seems to be a restoration of the state of the garden of Eden.

Google

Where in the Bible is the Garden of Eden call Paradise? That is a totally new one on me. Please show me where? In the mean time I'll show you all of the ACTUAL references to Paradise in the Bible, and they are exclusively from the New Testament:

1. Luke 23:43
   And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
   
2. 2 Corinthians 12:1
   [ The Vision of Paradise ] It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord:
   
3. 2 Corinthians 12:4
   how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
   
4. Revelation 2:7
   “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’

 

[LutheranMafia]

Hi Lutherianmafia,
This is a mistake. 'Spirit' is the breath of God, not Jesus the person nor some immaterial essence that is a person.

Job 27:3 clears up what a spirit is.

Job 27:3

King James Version (KJV)


3All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils;


Ecclesiates 3:18-20 defines spirit as 'breath as well.

Ecclesiastes 3:18-20

New International Version (NIV)


18 I also said to myself, “As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath[a]; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. 20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.




Footnotes:

1. Ecclesiastes 3:19 Or spirit

Spirit is not breath, spirit imparts breath while it is in the body, then spirits move on after the body dies.

Jesus went straight to sheol 9the grave) and laid there for 3 days until the resurrection and only after being resurrected, he ascended to heaven.

So then Jesus was lying when he told the thief in Luke 23:43 that they would be together in Paradise on that very day? Your belief that Jesus tells lies is quite a striking testimony of faith, Mike.

 

[Timothew]

No it doesn't. Where did you pull these chicken feathers from?

Strong's Greek: 3857. παράδεισος (paradeisos) -- a park, a garden, a paradise

parádeisos – an ancient Persian word meaning "enclosure, garden, park.
(Helps-word studies)

of Pers. origin (enclosure)
a park, a garden, a paradise
(NAS Exhausive Concordance)

Of Oriental origin (compare pardec); a park, i.e. (specially), an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise") -- paradise.
(Strong's Exhaustive Concordance)

enclosed park or pleasure-ground
(Liddell, Scott and Jones greek lexicon)

a park, a Persian word brought in by Xen.; used for the garden of Eden, Paradise, NTest.
(Abridged LSJ, the "Middle Liddell")

You are so wrong.

 

[Timothew]

Spirit is not breath, spirit imparts breath while it is in the body, then spirits move on after the body dies.


So then Jesus was lying when he told the thief in Luke 23:43 that they would be together in Paradise on that very day? Your belief that Jesus tells lies is quite a striking testimony of faith, Mike.

Jesus was not lying, however, once again you misunderstand what He said.

 

[createdtoworship]

Strong's Greek: 3857. παράδεισος (paradeisos) -- a park, a garden, a paradise

parádeisos – an ancient Persian word meaning "enclosure, garden, park.
(Helps-word studies)

of Pers. origin (enclosure)
a park, a garden, a paradise
(NAS Exhausive Concordance)

Of Oriental origin (compare pardec); a park, i.e. (specially), an Eden (place of future happiness, "paradise") -- paradise.
(Strong's Exhaustive Concordance)

enclosed park or pleasure-ground
(Liddell, Scott and Jones greek lexicon)

a park, a Persian word brought in by Xen.; used for the garden of Eden, Paradise, NTest.
(Abridged LSJ, the "Middle Liddell")

You are so wrong.

Definition | MW Collegiate Dict. (11th Ed.)
———————
par•a•dise \ˈper-ə-ˌdīs, -ˌdīz, ˈpa-rə-\ n

1 a : eden 2
b : an intermediate place or state where the souls of the righteous await resurrection and the final judgment
c : heaven
2 : a place or state of bliss, felicity, or delight — par•a•dis•ial \ˌper-ə-ˈdi-sē-əl, -zē-, ˌpa-rə-\ also par•a•dis•i•cal \-si-kəl, -zi-\ adj

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.14 παράδεισος, ου m: a dwelling place of the righteous dead in a state of blessedness (generally equated with οὐρανόςb ‘heaven,’ 1.11)—‘paradise.’ σήμερον μετ̓ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ ‘today you will be with me in paradise/heaven’ Lk 23.43. In some languages ‘paradise’ has been translated by a borrowed term, but more often than not it is rendered by an expression which is roughly equivalent to ‘that wonderful place’ or even ‘that wonderful place in heaven.’
In Re 2.7 ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ τοῦ θεοῦ ‘in the paradise of God,’ the reference may reflect somewhat more closely the historical background of this term

Louw, Johannes P. ; Nida, Eugene Albert: Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament : Based on Semantic Domains. electronic ed. of the 2nd edition. New York : United Bible societies, 1996, c1989, S. 1:4

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In its present concealment Paradise is according to Lk. 23:43 the abode of the souls of the redeemed in the intermediate state between death and resurrection. Elsewhere, however, the word παράδεισος is used for the hidden Paradise only in 2 C. 12:4. As later Judaism had no consistent view of the intermediate state of the righteous, but used many other figures of speech as well as גַּן עֵדֶן,36 so the NT has other expressions as well as παράδεισος for the state of the redeemed after death: table fellowship with Abraham (ἐν τοῖς κόλποις Ἀβραάμ, Lk. 16:23),37 being with the Lord (2 C. 5:8), σὺν Χριστῷ εἶναι (Phil. 1:23 cf. Ac. 7:59; Jn. 12:26), the heavenly kingdom (2 Tm. 4:18), the heavenly Jerusalem (Hb. 12:22), abiding-places in the Father’s house (Jn. 14:2).38 As concerns the location of the hidden Paradise, it appears from Mk. 13:27 that Jesus sought it in the heavenly world, for the assembling of the elect from the four winds from the point of earth to the point of heaven is the assembling of the living and the dead (who dwell in Paradise), → 516, 18 ff.39

Kittel, Gerhard (Hrsg.) ; Bromiley, Geoffrey William (Hrsg.) ; Friedrich, Gerhard (Hrsg.): Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. electronic ed. Grand Rapids, MI : Eerdmans, 1964-c1976, S. 5:769
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[LutheranMafia]

Jesus was not lying, however, once again you misunderstand what He said.

Perhaps you would care to elucidate rather than just sneering at me? If Jesus didn't go to Paradise on that day then how is this consistent with Luke 23:43?

 

[Timothew]

Perhaps you would care to elucidate rather than just sneering at me? If Jesus didn't go to Paradise on that day then how is this consistent with Luke 23:43?

You are the one who claimed the MikecpKing was saying that Jesus Lied. I'm just pointing out that there is another way to look at that verse. The commas are not in the original language. I'm telling you today you will be with me in paradise. This could also be read, "I'm telling you today, you will be with me in paradise". It shouldn't be automatically assumed that Mike thinks Jesus was a liar.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Definition | MW Collegiate Dict. (11th Ed.)
———————
par•a•dise \ˈper-ə-ˌdīs, -ˌdīz, ˈpa-rə-\ n

1 a : eden 2
b : an intermediate place or state where the souls of the righteous await resurrection and the final judgment
c : heaven
2 : a place or state of bliss, felicity, or delight — par•a•dis•ial \ˌper-ə-ˈdi-sē-əl, -zē-, ˌpa-rə-\ also par•a•dis•i•cal \-si-kəl, -zi-\ adj

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.14 παράδεισος, ου m: a dwelling place of the righteous dead in a state of blessedness (generally equated with οὐρανόςb ‘heaven,’ 1.11)—‘paradise.’ σήμερον μετ̓ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ ‘today you will be with me in paradise/heaven’ Lk 23.43. In some languages ‘paradise’ has been translated by a borrowed term, but more often than not it is rendered by an expression which is roughly equivalent to ‘that wonderful place’ or even ‘that wonderful place in heaven.’
In Re 2.7 ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ τοῦ θεοῦ ‘in the paradise of God,’ the reference may reflect somewhat more closely the historical background of this term

Louw, Johannes P. ; Nida, Eugene Albert: Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament : Based on Semantic Domains. electronic ed. of the 2nd edition. New York : United Bible societies, 1996, c1989, S. 1:4

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In its present concealment Paradise is according to Lk. 23:43 the abode of the souls of the redeemed in the intermediate state between death and resurrection. Elsewhere, however, the word παράδεισος is used for the hidden Paradise only in 2 C. 12:4. As later Judaism had no consistent view of the intermediate state of the righteous, but used many other figures of speech as well as גַּן עֵדֶן,36 so the NT has other expressions as well as παράδεισος for the state of the redeemed after death: table fellowship with Abraham (ἐν τοῖς κόλποις Ἀβραάμ, Lk. 16:23),37 being with the Lord (2 C. 5:8), σὺν Χριστῷ εἶναι (Phil. 1:23 cf. Ac. 7:59; Jn. 12:26), the heavenly kingdom (2 Tm. 4:18), the heavenly Jerusalem (Hb. 12:22), abiding-places in the Father’s house (Jn. 14:2).38 As concerns the location of the hidden Paradise, it appears from Mk. 13:27 that Jesus sought it in the heavenly world, for the assembling of the elect from the four winds from the point of earth to the point of heaven is the assembling of the living and the dead (who dwell in Paradise), → 516, 18 ff.39

Kittel, Gerhard (Hrsg.) ; Bromiley, Geoffrey William (Hrsg.) ; Friedrich, Gerhard (Hrsg.): Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. electronic ed. Grand Rapids, MI : Eerdmans, 1964-c1976, S. 5:769
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Excellent rebuttal!

Further lets look at 2 Corinthians 12:2-4.

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2 Corinthians 12:2-4
​

Note how heaven and Paradise are explicitly linked here, they are clearly intended as synonyms. Also note how Paradise is "up", just as heaven is above. Clearly this Paradise is not a walled garden on Earth somewhere.

 

[Timothew]

Definition | MW Collegiate Dict. (11th Ed.)
———————
par•a•dise \ˈper-ə-ˌdīs, -ˌdīz, ˈpa-rə-\ n

1 a : eden 2
b : an intermediate place or state where the souls of the righteous await resurrection and the final judgment
c : heaven
2 : a place or state of bliss, felicity, or delight — par•a•dis•ial \ˌper-ə-ˈdi-sē-əl, -zē-, ˌpa-rə-\ also par•a•dis•i•cal \-si-kəl, -zi-\ adj

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.14 παράδεισος, ου m: a dwelling place of the righteous dead in a state of blessedness (generally equated with οὐρανόςb ‘heaven,’ 1.11)—‘paradise.’ σήμερον μετ̓ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ ‘today you will be with me in paradise/heaven’ Lk 23.43. In some languages ‘paradise’ has been translated by a borrowed term, but more often than not it is rendered by an expression which is roughly equivalent to ‘that wonderful place’ or even ‘that wonderful place in heaven.’
In Re 2.7 ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ τοῦ θεοῦ ‘in the paradise of God,’ the reference may reflect somewhat more closely the historical background of this term

Louw, Johannes P. ; Nida, Eugene Albert: Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament : Based on Semantic Domains. electronic ed. of the 2nd edition. New York : United Bible societies, 1996, c1989, S. 1:4

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In its present concealment Paradise is according to Lk. 23:43 the abode of the souls of the redeemed in the intermediate state between death and resurrection. Elsewhere, however, the word παράδεισος is used for the hidden Paradise only in 2 C. 12:4. As later Judaism had no consistent view of the intermediate state of the righteous, but used many other figures of speech as well as גַּן עֵדֶן,36 so the NT has other expressions as well as παράδεισος for the state of the redeemed after death: table fellowship with Abraham (ἐν τοῖς κόλποις Ἀβραάμ, Lk. 16:23),37 being with the Lord (2 C. 5:8), σὺν Χριστῷ εἶναι (Phil. 1:23 cf. Ac. 7:59; Jn. 12:26), the heavenly kingdom (2 Tm. 4:18), the heavenly Jerusalem (Hb. 12:22), abiding-places in the Father’s house (Jn. 14:2).38 As concerns the location of the hidden Paradise, it appears from Mk. 13:27 that Jesus sought it in the heavenly world, for the assembling of the elect from the four winds from the point of earth to the point of heaven is the assembling of the living and the dead (who dwell in Paradise), → 516, 18 ff.39

Kittel, Gerhard (Hrsg.) ; Bromiley, Geoffrey William (Hrsg.) ; Friedrich, Gerhard (Hrsg.): Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. electronic ed. Grand Rapids, MI : Eerdmans, 1964-c1976, S. 5:769
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was referring to LM's post:

Originally Posted by Mikecpking

The biblical 'Paradise' means a 'walled garden'.
​

No it doesn't. Where did you pull these chicken feathers from?

 

[LutheranMafia]

(Woops, accidentally deleted most of my post...)

I thought we had already settled this with a Lutheran reverend and you had conceded the point?

 

[Timothew]

Experts in Greek all agree that today is linked to "you will be with me" and not "I say to you". Show me one version of the Bible that agrees with your comma placement here?

Here is Young's Literal Translation which more acurately duplicates the Greek word order:

and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'
Luke 23:43
​

When shown like this there is no room for doubt, clearly today is linked to "with me" and not "I say to thee".

I thought we had already settled this with a Lutheran reverend and you had conceded the point?

Here is the greek:
και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω

σημερον can go with και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι
or with μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω

Without the punctuation, it is impossible to determine which is intended.
I showed other instances of " I tell you today". It is not unheard of.

 

[LutheranMafia]

As I said before, I thought we had already settled this with a Lutheran reverend and you had conceded the point?

 

[LutheranMafia]

σήμερον μετ᾽ ἐμοῦ
today with me

The "today" is explicity "with me". I don't see how it can get any clearer than that.