Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[Timothew]

My brother in law Mike has a bulldog named Boomer.
Mike says, "Boomer doesn't go anywhere with me unless he wants to."
To demonstrate, Mike pulled on the leash attached to Boomer's harness. Boomer sat solidly and didn't move. All Mike managed to do was to pull the harness right off of Boomer.

I took Boomer for a walk, and by being gentle with him, but firmly applying small pressure to his leash, he would go with me, anywhere I needed him to go. I just needed to be patient with him. Eventually he learned the truth. I'm hoping that, even though you are more stubborn than Boomer, eventually you will see that I am telling you the truth.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I'm just tired of it. Jude 13 also says they are "wild waves of the sea". Hint hint, poetic language being used here. Jude is practically screaming this at you, but you are so dull, you can't see it.

By poetic you mean meaningless. That is an easy way to explain away uncomfortable truths, but wandering for eternity in nether gloom is not a metaphor. If it is, what is it a metaphor for, answer me that? What is the allegory?

You win the argument by sheer stubbornness.
OR you could read Jude (it's short) and learn from it.

I simply keep pointing your attention back to the fact that the wicked wander for eternity in nether gloom even after they are twice dead. You divert attention to other verses and try to explain it away as meaningless poetry, but the fact remains that Jude 1:12-13 clearly states that even after the second death there is still consciousness.

As far as stubborn goes, your attempts to explain away the existence of an afterlife are as stubborn as they get. If anyone is acting like a stubborn dog it is you. When I finally had you pinned down to actually address Jude 1:13 you just give up and leave for a long time and claim that *I* am the one being stubborn. You can't address Jude 1:13 to save your life, other than to explain it away as meaningless poetry. Maybe someday you will be able to get over yourself and actually look at what the Bible says rather than wildly reading into whatever you care to.

 

[Timothew]

By poetic you mean meaningless. That is an easy way to explain away uncomfortable truths, but wandering for eternity in nether gloom is not a metaphor. If it is, what is it a metaphor for, answer me that? What is the allegory?

Destruction, death. Just as Jude says. Did you read the rest of Jude or not? It's not "meaningless poetry", it's meaningful poetry. But it can't mean that false teachers are sea waves or stars. Here is the verse, read it again in context, being sensitive to the meaning.
They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Blackest darkness, death, get it? They have been destroyed in Korah's Rebellion. They are not alive after their destruction.

I simply keep pointing your attention back to the fact that the wicked wander for eternity in nether gloom even after they are twice dead. You divert attention to other verses and try to explain it away as meaningless poetry, but the fact remains that Jude 1:12-13 clearly states that even after the second death there is still consciousness.

As far as stubborn goes, your attempts to explain away the existence of an afterlife are as stubborn as they get. If anyone is acting like a stubborn dog it is you. When I finally had you pinned down to actually address Jude 1:13 you just give up and leave for a long time and claim that *I* am the one being stubborn. You can't address Jude 1:13 to save your life, other than to explain it away as meaningless poetry. Maybe someday you will be able to get over yourself and actually look at what the Bible says rather than wildly reading into whatever you care to.

Me?? Wildly reading??
Nice try, but the charge doesn't stick. Jude says they are destroyed. You read, "not destroyed, but alive instead, and wandering".

 

[LutheranMafia]

Destruction, death. Just as Jude says. Did you read the rest of Jude or not? It's not "meaningless poetry", it's meaningful poetry. But it can't mean that false teachers are sea waves or stars. Here is the verse, read it again in context, being sensitive to the meaning.
They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
Blackest darkness, death, get it?

Death does not mean what you think, there is an afterlife, and even after the second death there is still consciousness. You are wrong about death on all counts. They "wander" for eternity, to wander requires consciousness. You can't be non-existent and wander, they are mutually exclusive. You can't seem to get that through your stubborn canine brain.

They have been destroyed in Korah's Rebellion. They are not alive after their destruction.

"...they go down alive into the realm of the dead" Numbers 16:30 "They went down alive into the realm of the dead" Numbers 16:33. It is repeated twice that they went down ALIVE into Sheol. Please note that alive and dead are two different things.

Me?? Wildly reading??
Nice try, but the charge doesn't stick. Jude says they are destroyed. You read, "not destroyed, but alive instead, and wandering".

I say their souls were destroyed but their spirits continue to "wander for eternity" just like the scriptures say. It is not just a poetic flourish, it is a literal truth. I don't have to twist scripture to fit my interpretation the way you do, so yes, you are wildly reading into the Bible, desperately grasping at any ploy you can come up with to try and twist the scripture to your essentially atheistic point of view that there is no afterlife.

 

[Timothew]

Death does not mean what you think, there is an afterlife, and even after the second death there is still consciousness. You are wrong about death on all counts. They "wander" for eternity, to wander requires consciousness. You can't be non-existent and wander, they are mutually exclusive. You can't seem to get that through your stubborn canine brain.[/color]

"...they go down alive into the realm of the dead" Numbers 16:30 "They went down alive into the realm of the dead" Numbers 16:33. It is repeated twice that they went down ALIVE into Sheol. Please note that alive and dead are two different things.

I say their souls were destroyed but their spirits continue to "wander for eternity" just like the scriptures say. It is not just a poetic flourish, it is a literal truth. I don't have to twist scripture to fit my interpretation the way you do, so yes, you are wildly reading into the Bible, desperately grasping at any ploy you can come up with to try and twist the scripture to your essentially atheistic point of view that there is no afterlife.

Death does not mean "wandering alive". I'm sorry, but it just does not mean that.

There is plenty of biblical evidence that the wages of sin is death, not living and wandering.
Matt 7:13

Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

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This says destruction, not living and wandering.

Matthew 10:28​

Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

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Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not left to wander alive.

Matthew 13:30​

First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
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The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,​

So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
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Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

Luke 13:3​

I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
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Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will wander alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not "make them wander alive forever).

John 3:16​

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

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So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They do not wander aliver through the stars forever, they just perish.


John 8:21​

Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
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Jesus said they would die in their sin, not wander alive forever in the stars.

Romans 6:23​

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Note: Death, not wandering alive in the stars.

1 Corinthians 3:17​

If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
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Destroy, not "cause to wander alive in space forever.

Galations 6:8​

For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
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phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.

The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living wandering in outerspace.

2 Thessalonians 1:9​

These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
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Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-27,​

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
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Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and wandering the galaxy, but consumed.

Hebrews 10:39​

But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

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James 1:15b​

and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
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Death, not eternal wandering in distant nebulas.

James 4:12a​

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
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Destroy, not "make to wander forever among the stars of the cosmos.

2 Peter 2:1​

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
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Destruction, not eternal hitchhiking in the galaxy.

2 Peter 3:7-9​

But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

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Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12​

He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
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How can those without life be living and wandering forever in outerspace?

Jude 5​

Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

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Jude 10​

But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.
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Revelation 2:11b​

He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
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The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8​

The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

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Revelation 18:8​

For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
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The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally wandering alive, lost in space. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

Revelation 20:14-15​

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
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John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternally lost in space wandering the stars on an eternal star trek.

Revelation 21:8​

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
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They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

they go down alive into the realm of the dead" Numbers 16:30 "They went down alive into the realm of the dead" Numbers 16:33. It is repeated twice that they went down ALIVE into Sheol. Please note that alive and dead are two different things.

Numbers 16:33 says they perished. They were swallowed alive and they perished. I'm sure that I told you this before. And you ignored it again.

I'm really tired of discussing this with you when you never listen.
Read Numbers 16:33. Please, just read it.
Here it is, don't ignore it again, since you brought it up.
So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.

They perished means that they died. They are no longer living. They have shuffled off their mortal coil, they are deceased, They are late people, stone dead,
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vuW6tQ0218
​

 

[Timothew]

You can't seem to get that through your stubborn canine brain.

I changed my avatar just for you, do you like it?

I think Boomer is cute.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I changed my avatar just for you, do you like it?

I think Boomer is cute.

I think it is very apropos for you, it matches you nicely.

Anyway, as to all the talk of destruction and perishing, you continue to dismiss without consideration the fact that the soul can die while the spirit continues. Show me one verse that speaks of spirit death? There are several that speak of soul death but not a one that speaks of spirit death. That is because there is no such thing as the death of the spirit.

This is all an extension of your problems with the afterlife. Because you don't believe in an afterlife you, like atheists, believe that death is an end, so naturally you think the second death is an end too, even though this makes even less sense than the first death being an end to consciousness. The very existence of a second death proves that the first death is not an end to consciousness. If there is a second death than clearly there is something of consciousness that survives the first death.

 

[Timothew]

I think it is very apropos for you, it matches you nicely.
Thanks

Anyway, as to all the talk of destruction and perishing, you continue to dismiss without consideration the fact that the soul can die while the spirit continues. Show me one verse that speaks of spirit death? There are several that speak of soul death but not a one that speaks of spirit death. That is because there is no such thing as the death of the spirit.

This is all an extension of your problems with the afterlife. Because you don't believe in an afterlife you, like atheists, believe that death is an end, so naturally you think the second death is an end too, even though this makes even less sense than the first death being an end to consciousness. The very existence of a second death proves that the first death is not an end to consciousness. If there is a second death than clearly there is something of consciousness that survives the first death.

I'm still not clear on why you think that I don't believe there is life after death. I've repeatedly stated that I do believe there is life after death. Jesus raises us up in the resurrection and there we are ALIVE! Viola! Life after death. The very existance of a second death actually proves that there is a first death. If the second death were the only death, then the first death would not be death.

I've asked before and I'll continue to ask. If you show me a dead person who is conscious, then I'll believe you, that there is consciousness after death with no resurrection.

It's a cheap trick for you to continue to try to associate me with atheists. I believe in and follow Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, God Himself, and I believe that He will return on the last day and all the dead in their graves will hear His voice and come out and live, just as Lazarus did. My only hope is in Jesus Christ for life after death. My hope is built on nothing less.
Show me an atheist who believes this, and I'll show you a Christian.

The spirit, the breath of a person (the πνεῦμ&#945 can't exist without the person. Can your breathing go on without you? The spirit is the same way.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I'm still not clear on why you think that I don't believe there is life after death. I've repeatedly stated that I do believe there is life after death. Jesus raises us up in the resurrection and there we are ALIVE! Viola! Life after death.

You are making up your own definition that does not correspond to what anyone else in the world means by afterlife. Afterlife refers to consciousness immediately after death.

The very existance of a second death actually proves that there is a first death.

There is no need to prove the existence of the first death, it is self apparent. What the second death does prove is that the first death is not the end of consciousness.

If the second death were the only death, then the first death would not be death.

You logic here comes from nowhere and goes nowhere. You are running in circles trying to sound like you have some logic here.

That is why you can't get your brain around Jude 1:13. You either have to explain it away as meaningless poetry, or ignore the verse completely because it blows your logic out of the water.

I've asked before and I'll continue to ask. If you show me a dead person who is conscious, then I'll believe you, that there is consciousness after death with no resurrection.

It's a cheap trick for you to continue to try to associate me with atheists.

The first time I heard you say this I had heard an atheist say EXACTLY the same thing just one day before.

I believe in and follow Jesus Christ, the Son of God the Father, God Himself, and I believe that He will return on the last day and all the dead in their graves will hear His voice and come out and live, just as Lazarus did. My only hope is in Jesus Christ for life after death. My hope is built on nothing less.
Show me an atheist who believes this, and I'll show you a Christian.

I didn't say that you are an atheist, I said that some of your views are atheistic.

The spirit, the breath of a person (the πνεῦμ&#945 can't exist without the person. Can your breathing go on without you? The spirit is the same way.

The spirit is what makes one breath, but you turn this on it's head and say that the spirit is the breath, which it is not. You say that when a person stops breathing that his spirit ceases to exist. Show me this is scripture, please?

 

[LutheranMafia]

Here are some verses where spirit is clearly not associated with breathing:

And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:2

Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits.
Leviticus 19:31

Then the LORD came down in the cloud, and spoke to him, and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and placed the same upon the seventy elders; and it happened, when the Spirit rested upon them, that they prophesied, although they never did so again.
Numbers 11:25

and his spirit returned, and he revived.
Judges 15:19

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Note that in this last verse from Judges Samson's spirit RETURNED, it didn't "come back into existence". It continued to exist outside of his body while Samson was under and then returned into his body when he revived.

 

[Timothew]

The spirit is what makes one breath, but you turn this on it's head and say that the spirit is the breath, which it is not. You say that when a person stops breathing that his spirit ceases to exist. Show me this is scripture, please?

Jesus died on the cross correct?

In Mark 15:37 (and Luke 23:46) the greek word is ἐξέπνευσεν. This is a compound greek word which comes from 2 greek words (or a prefix and a root). The prefix is ek and means "out of" and the root is pneu and means breath, wind, or spirit. When Jesus exepneusen, He "breathed out", He died. No more breathing after that. The spirit died. On the third day Jesus returned to life, His spirit came to life. He could breath again. (John 20:22 - "And with this said, breathed on them (enephusesen) and told them "receive the Holy Spirit (pnuema)).

A dead body has no pnuema, no spirit, no breath. You can determine this for yourself.
Our hope as Christians is in Christ, for eternal life. This is Life, Real Life. The kind of life where you live and breathe. Eat and sleep.

(You will see your father again, when you and he are returned to life. When you are both alive and living and laughing and happy. I'm saying this to bless you, not to hurt you.)

 

[LutheranMafia]

The spirit is what makes one breath, but you turn this on it's head and say that the spirit is the breath, which it is not. You say that when a person stops breathing that his spirit ceases to exist. Show me this is scripture, please?

Jesus died on the cross correct?

In Mark 15:37 (and Luke 23:46) the greek word is ἐξέπνευσεν. This is a compound greek word which comes from 2 greek words (or a prefix and a root). The prefix is ek and means "out of" and the root is pneu and means breath, wind, or spirit. When Jesus exepneusen, He "breathed out", He died. No more breathing after that. The spirit died.

Where does it say that the spirit died? You are just making up verses to suite yourself. It does not say that the spirit died.

On the third day Jesus returned to life, His spirit came to life. He could breath again. (John 20:22 - "And with this said, breathed on them (enephusesen) and told them "receive the Holy Spirit (pnuema)).

The fact that Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit onto the disciples does not mean that His spirit died while he was departed. Your logic here is specious in the extreme.

A dead body has no pnuema, no spirit, no breath. You can determine this for yourself.

The fact that a dead body has no pnuema does not mean that the pnuema ceases to exist. This is pure confabulation on your part, nowhere in the Bible does it speak of spirit dying, even though it does speak of soul dying. If soul can die and it is spoken of, then you would think that if spirit could die that it would be spoken of too?

Our hope as Christians is in Christ, for eternal life. This is Life, Real Life. The kind of life where you live and breathe. Eat and sleep.

This is your desperate hope because you secretly embrace atheistic notions and do not truly believe in the eternal nature of the spirit. So you have to believe in a physical eternity rather than a spiritual one. I think that you are afraid of spirit existence and desperately want to cling to a purely physical existence, out of fear.

(You will see your father again, when you and he are returned to life. When you are both alive and living and laughing and happy. I'm saying this to bless you, not to hurt you.)

I have seen my father again. I dreamed of him just last week. If I had seen him again in person he probably would have been just as stubborn and narrow minded as the last time I spoke to him in person, but fortunately, from the clear Light of the Other Side, things make much more sense and people drop with ease the stupidity that marked their physical existence. Hopefully it will be the same way for you, because I see no indication that you will ever wise up while on this side of the barrier to Heaven.

 

[Timothew]

Originally Posted by Timothew

Our hope as Christians is in Christ, for eternal life. This is Life, Real Life. The kind of life where you live and breathe. Eat and sleep.
​

This is your desperate hope because you secretly embrace atheistic notions and do not truly believe in the eternal nature of the spirit. So you have to believe in a physical eternity rather than a spiritual one. I think that you are afraid of spirit existence and desperately want to cling to a purely physical existence, out of fear.

I don't think that I am afraid of a spirit existence. I think that a spirit existence (if there is such a thing) would be less than a physical existence. After Jesus rose from the grave, He was able to eat with the disciples. In Luke 24:39, Jesus assures the disciples that He is actual flesh and not just a spirit. If He is raised in a physical body, and He is the fruitfruits of all who are resurrected, why shouldn't we also expect to be raised in a physical body?

Here is Luke 24:36-43
36As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you!” 37But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. 38And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 40And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. 41And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42They gave him a piece of broiled fish,b 43and he took it and ate before them.

 

[Timothew]

LutheranMafia,
I have to ask, since you say my beliefs are basically atheist and I assume you believe your views are not.

Where do you find your views in a traditional creed such as this one?
The Nicene Creed (with scriptural references)

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)v
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)


You can see my beliefs in the Nicene Creed-
I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

But I don't see your POV anywhere in the Nicene Creed.
Nowhere does it say, "the spirit is immortal and the evil spirits fly through space." So how come you get to say "Timothew, your views are atheistic", but I can't say "LM, your views are atheistic"?

Actually I am merely refraining from calling your POV atheistic because I'm just a really nice guy.

 

[Mikecpking]

Where does it say that the spirit died? You are just making up verses to suite yourself. It does not say that the spirit died.

The fact that Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit onto the disciples does not mean that His spirit died while he was departed. Your logic here is specious in the extreme.


The fact that a dead body has no pnuema does not mean that the pnuema ceases to exist. This is pure confabulation on your part, nowhere in the Bible does it speak of spirit dying, even though it does speak of soul dying. If soul can die and it is spoken of, then you would think that if spirit could die that it would be spoken of too?

This is your desperate hope because you secretly embrace atheistic notions and do not truly believe in the eternal nature of the spirit. So you have to believe in a physical eternity rather than a spiritual one. I think that you are afraid of spirit existence and desperately want to cling to a purely physical existence, out of fear.


I have seen my father again. I dreamed of him just last week. If I had seen him again in person he probably would have been just as stubborn and narrow minded as the last time I spoke to him in person, but fortunately, from the clear Light of the Other Side, things make much more sense and people drop with ease the stupidity that marked their physical existence. Hopefully it will be the same way for you, because I see no indication that you will ever wise up while on this side of the barrier to Heaven.

What do you think 'spirit' is?

 

[createdtoworship]

LutheranMafia,
I have to ask, since you say my beliefs are basically atheist and I assume you believe your views are not.

Where do you find your views in a traditional creed such as this one?
The Nicene Creed (with scriptural references)

We believe in (Romans 10:8-10; 1John 4:15)
ONE God, (Deuteronomy 6:4, Ephesians 4:6)
the Father (Matthew 6:9)
Almighty, (Exodus 6:3)
Maker of Heaven and Earth, (Genesis 1:1)
and of all things visible and invisible. (Colossians 1:15-16)

And in ONE Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 11:17)
the Son of God, (Mathew 14:33; 16:16)
the Only-Begotten, (John 1:18; 3:16)
Begotten of the Father before all ages. (John 1:2)
Light of Light; (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12; Matthew 17:2,5)
True God of True God; (John 17:1-5)
Begotten, not made; (John 1:18)
of one essence with the Father (John 10:30)
by whom all things were made; (Hebrews 1:1-2)
Who for us men and for our salvation (1Timothy 2:4-5)
came down from Heaven, (John 6:33,35)
and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, (Luke 1:35)
and became man. (John 1:14)
And was crucified for us (Mark 15:25; 1Cointhians 15:3)
under Pontius Pilate, (John 19:6)
and suffered, (Mark 8:31)
and was buried. (Luke 23:53; 1Corinthians 15:4)
And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures. (Luke 24:1 1Corinthians 15:4)
And ascended into Heaven, (Luke 24:51; Acts 1:10)
and sits at the right hand of the Father. (Mark 16:19; Acts 7:55)
And He shall come again with glory (Matthew 24:27)
to judge the living and the dead; (Acts 10:42; 2Timothy 4:1)
whose Kingdom shall have no end. (2 Peter 1:11)

And in the Holy Spirit, (John 14:26)
the Lord, (Acts 5:3-4)v
the Giver of Life, (Genesis 1:2)
Who proceeds from the Father; (John 15:26)
Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; (Matthew 3:16-17)
Who spoke through the prophets. (1 Samuel 19:20 ; Ezekiel 11:5,13)

In one, (Matthew 16: 18)
holy, (1 Peter 2:5,9)
catholic*, (Mark 16:15)
and apostolic Church. (Acts 2:42; Ephesians 2:19-22)

I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins**. (Ephesians 4:5; Acts 2:38)
I look for the resurrection of the dead, (John 11:24; 1Corinthians 15:12-49; Hebrews 6:2; Revelation 20:5)
and the life of the world to come. (Mark 10:29-30)
AMEN. (Psalm 106:48)


You can see my beliefs in the Nicene Creed-
I look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

But I don't see your POV anywhere in the Nicene Creed.
Nowhere does it say, "the spirit is immortal and the evil spirits fly through space." So how come you get to say "Timothew, your views are atheistic", but I can't say "LM, your views are atheistic"?

Actually I am merely refraining from calling your POV atheistic because I'm just a really nice guy.

nicene creed says you need to be baptized to be saved, it's not faith alone.

see the second to last line in the creed.

 

[he-man]

The spirit is what makes one breath, but you turn this on it's head and say that the spirit is the breath, which it is not. You say that when a person stops breathing that his spirit ceases to exist. Show me this is scripture, please? Jesus died on the cross correct?

In Mark 15:37 (and Luke 23:46) the greek word is ἐξέπνευσεν. This is a compound greek word which comes from 2 greek words (or a prefix and a root). The prefix is ek and means "out of" and the root is pneu and means breath, wind, or spirit. When Jesus exepneusen, He "breathed out", He died. No more breathing after that. The spirit died.

The spirit does not die, it may not be resurrected or God may not give back, but it does not die. The body dies.

[FONT='Verdana', 'Arial', 'Helvetica', sans-serif]7[/FONT] and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Eccl 12:7 (ESV)

On the third day Jesus returned to life, His spirit came to life. He could breath again. (John 20:22 - "And with this said, breathed on them (enephusesen) and told them "receive the Holy Spirit (pnuema)).A dead body has no pnuema, no spirit, no breath. You can determine this for yourself.
Our hope as Christians is in Christ, for eternal life. This is Life, Real Life. The kind of life where you live and breathe. Eat and sleep.

Scripture please? You are not told that we Sleep after the resurrection

 

[Mikecpking]

The spirit does not die, it may not be resurrected or God may not give back, but it does not die. The body dies.

[FONT='Verdana', 'Arial', 'Helvetica', sans-serif]7[/font] and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Eccl 12:7 (ESV) Scripture please? You are not told that we Sleep after the resurrection

What do you think 'spirit' is in the bible?

 

[Timothew]

The spirit does not die, it may not be resurrected or God may not give back, but it does not die. The body dies.

[FONT='Verdana', 'Arial', 'Helvetica', sans-serif]7[/font] and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it. Eccl 12:7 (ESV) Scripture please? You are not told that we Sleep after the resurrection

You might be right. I don't think scripture says anywhere that we will sleep after the resurrection. My point wasn't that we will sleep but that we will have real lives after the resurrection. But there is sleeping in real life now, so I don't see any reason not to believe that we will occasionally sleep after the resurrection.

The spirit returning to God who gave it seems be be a way of saying "Everyone eventually dies", be careful of reading too much into one verse.
If I ask my son to do his homework I don't buy Ecclesiastes 12:12 as an excuse.

 

[Timothew]

nicene creed says you need to be baptized to be saved, it's not faith alone.

see the second to last line in the creed.

Perhaps a discussion of baptism would derail this thread even further than we are already derailed. I can talk about hell all night long, but I am very afraid to discuss baptism with anyone.