Let's Talk About Hell (3)

[Lord Herdsetk]

Would this entire discussion boil down to "Its not important what certain people believed, because its almost impossible to determine who had it right and who had it wrong; the important thing is in keeping each other alive in God through strengthening each other and loving one another?"

 

[createdtoworship]

Life is a better translation, or what do you do with this passage?
John 13:37b-τὴν ψυχήν μου ὑπὲρ σοῦ θήσω. "I would place down my life for you", now read it as if psychen were Peter's soul. I place down my soul for you? That doesn't read from anyone's world-view.

yeah but translators universally agree that john 13:37 reads "life" but that is not the case with all the other "soul" verses like Matt 10:28. Translators universally agree in all translations that that word is "soul" not life like Mikecpking tries to argue. I told him and I also tell you to prove it. Prove that life is a better translation in these verses.

 

[Soulgazer]

Would this entire discussion boil down to "Its not important what certain people believed, because its almost impossible to determine who had it right and who had it wrong; the important thing is in keeping each other alive in God through strengthening each other and loving one another?"

Yes, I think that sums it up very nicely. "Ya put's yer money down and yer takes yer chances". However, we can make informed choices based on education and desired outcome. I made my choice on the desire to find gnosis, that experiential knowledge of God, because it is verifiable in this lifetime; one either has it, or one does not, and if one does not have it in a reasonable amount of time, one can make another choice.

I have not made another selection, because so far, this one has done everything that it has promised. If it had not, I would follow something else.

I may have a differing view of faith; to me, faith is synonymous with trust. If I drop a stone to the ground, I trust that it will fall down every time, because it always has. When I was a child, and the world was new, I sometimes had a fear that not everything would stay as expected in that regard. Trust is built, stone by stone. So is faith. I would not have faith in answered prayer, if none of my prayers were answered. I would not have faith even in the existence of God, if He had not made himself known to me, though I suppose most here feel the same way.

 

[Lou Saffire]

being a pagan i believe hell is only possible if you want it to be that's why i get so concerned over my Christian cousins, don't do that to yourself guys, the universe is not interested in judging you, sorry its got better things to be doing

 

[Timothew]

yeah but translators universally agree that john 13:37 reads "life" but that is not the case with all the other "soul" verses like Matt 10:28. Translators universally agree in all translations that that word is "soul" not life like Mikecpking tries to argue. I told him and I also tell you to prove it. Prove that life is a better translation in these verses.

It is the very same word in both verses. ψυχήν

If your understanding of the bible doesn't allow it to be translated the same both times, perhaps you should show why it must have a different meaning in Matt 10:28.

I've shown how ψυχήν can't mean ghostly-soul in John 13:37. The translators agree with me, and yet translate the exact same word as soul in Matt 10:28. Can you explain that? I think I can explain it, it is because they are committed to one point of view and if they translate the word accurately in Matt 10:28 it challenges that viewpoint. I heard that only translators who accept the eternal torment theory were allowed to be on the translation committee of the NASB. It would be good to get theology from the bible and not translate the bible acccording to preconceived theology.

 

[Soulgazer]

Which pagan religion are you from? "Pagan" is a catch all term for a multitude. Germanic? Druid? Wiccan?

 

[Timothew]

Which pagan religion are you from? "Pagan" is a catch all term for a multitude. Germanic? Druid? Wiccan?

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Paganism (from paganus, meaning "country dweller", "rustic")

So originally it must have meant the religion of anyone outside of The City, Rome.

I was also wondering what sort of Pagan Lou is as well.
Is Lou Saffire a play on words?
Can you "bring light" to our discussion?

 

[Timothew]

yeah but translators universally agree that john 13:37 reads "life" but that is not the case with all the other "soul" verses like Matt 10:28. Translators universally agree in all translations that that word is "soul" not life like Mikecpking tries to argue. I told him and I also tell you to prove it. Prove that life is a better translation in these verses.

Here is another use of the word from Exodus 12:19 in the Greek LXX:
πᾶς ὃς ἂν φάγῃ ζυμωτόν ἐξολεθρευθήσεται ἡ ψυχὴ ἐκείνη ἐκ συναγωγῆς Ισραηλ
All which would eat yeast utterly-destroy the psuche this from the gathering of Israel.

This makes sense translated as life, but non-sense translated as wispy-soul.

To gain an understanding of a word, look at how the word is used in many different contexts.

 

[createdtoworship]

Here is another use of the word from Exodus 12:19 in the Greek LXX:
πᾶς ὃς ἂν φάγῃ ζυμωτόν ἐξολεθρευθήσεται ἡ ψυχὴ ἐκείνη ἐκ συναγωγῆς Ισραηλ
All which would eat yeast utterly-destroy the psuche this from the gathering of Israel.

This makes sense translated as life, but non-sense translated as wispy-soul.

To gain an understanding of a word, look at how the word is used in many different contexts.

yeah but the translators almost universally agree that that word is NOT soul. See where this is leading? I am going with the translators not your oppinions.

 

[LutheranMafia]

"Wild waves of a sea, foaming out their own shames; stars going astray, to whom the gloom of the darkness to the age (aion) hath been kept." .., Youngs Literal Translation

Wild waves of the sea, foaming out their shame; wandering stars for which has been kept the gloom of darkness for the age (aion)." . . Emphatic Diaglot.

Age (aion) -- An indefinite period of time, past, present or future. This is the proper translation of aion. The adjective form of this word is aionios, which has been erroneously translated as 'eternal' or 'everlasting'. But this is old news, since almost every serious student of the Bible knows that this is an improper translation.

On BibleGateway.com 24 out of 25 translations say forever. So you are saying there is not a single 'serious' translation of the Bible outside of Young's Literal Translation? You will find some agreement here with Hilsage who very much admires YLT, but I very much doubt that even he would argue that the vast majority of English translations are not 'serious' as you define the term.

We do not have its proper equivalent in the English language. Being an adjective and derived from the noun, it cannot properly go beyond its meaning.

Here is the definition in Strong's Lexicon:

1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity
2) the worlds, universe
3) period of time, age

No, it means that we have met with much figurative speech in this passage of scripture. The people under consideration here are not in reality 'springs without water, nor or they 'driven about by a literal storm', and neither are they conscious of 'black darkness' when they die.

There is always a literal reality that any analogy is referencing, but you would cast the whole meaning of this verses to a circular analogy not rooted in any literal meaning, and thus meaningless. I think the 'black darkness' literal because it is referred to too many times in the Bible.

Matthew 6:23
But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

Ephesians 5:8
For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light
​

 

[Timothew]

yeah but the translators almost universally agree that that word is NOT soul. See where this is leading? I am going with the translators not your oppinions.

OK, you don't have to take my opinion. I'm just telling you what the word means. If you need to have 2 different definitions for the same word in order to hold on to your opinion, it doesn't matter to me. You should ask yourself why you need this though. Not for me, but for your own understanding.

 

[createdtoworship]

OK, you don't have to take my opinion. I'm just telling you what the word means. If you need to have 2 different definitions for the same word in order to hold on to your opinion, it doesn't matter to me. You should ask yourself why you need this though. Not for me, but for your own understanding.

many words have two definitions. Thats what the numbering is beside the definition. There are two types of soul. One referencing to life and another referencing to the spiritual life. (but there are more usages than that, that was just for illustration). Many suggest that because death is so abrupt that the soul is not eternal but but what do you do with verses that suggest that punishment is non ending like this one...."2 thess 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;""

 

[LutheranMafia]

Here is another use of the word from Exodus 12:19 in the Greek LXX:
πᾶς ὃς ἂν φάγῃ ζυμωτόν ἐξολεθρευθήσεται ἡ ψυχὴ ἐκείνη ἐκ συναγωγῆς Ισραηλ
All which would eat yeast utterly-destroy the psuche this from the gathering of Israel.

This makes sense translated as life, but non-sense translated as wispy-soul.

To gain an understanding of a word, look at how the word is used in many different contexts.

Now you sound like Mikecpking. Mike only quotes Old Testament verses about the word soul/nephesh and never New Testament verses. But the Greek psyche and the Hebrew nephesh are not the same thing. The Greek word is much more specific and pinpointed, whereas the Hebrew word is a very broad and general term that can be used to mean anything from perfume to fish. You can't jump back and forth between the Greek and Hebrew and retain a consistent context.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Originally Posted by Timothew
​

Life is a better translation, or what do you do with this passage?
John 13:37b-τὴν ψυχήν μου ὑπὲρ σοῦ θήσω. "I would place down my life for you", now read it as if psychen were Peter's soul. I place down my soul for you? That doesn't read from anyone's world-view.
​

It reads OK from my POV. But like I said before, from my studies, I believe that the soul is the mind/will/emotions and represents the 'motivating life force' of a man and the spirit represents the 'animating life force'. This verse is not saying to 'take the bullet' or lay your life down physically, but mentally or soulishly.

What the above verse is saying to me is lay down your will or 'life motivation' sacrificially and submit to the 'life's motivation' of someone else. Or 'Follow Jesus'...wherever that path leads you.

As an example, wives are to "submit" or 'lay their life motivations' down for their husbands. I don't have to tell you that I'm talking about very strong 'life/motivations' with this analogy. And taking it to the deepest level, one can even say it is the 'motivating soul life' that one abandons when they have 'lost the will to live'. All the while their spirit is still animating their flesh but their zeal for 'this life' is gone. Scripturally we know that what you think 'in the soul', will affect your physical bodies health and contribute to your ultimate death.

3JO 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

Medically this is related to the field of PNI or psycho neuro immunology. This is a relatively new field of medicine which truly lines up with the admonitions of scripture and health.

I have to repost this because it was such a great post by Hilsage. I agree completely. To lay down one's soul for someone is a deeper level of meaning than simply being willing to die for someone. Dying is easy, living with a great burden is much harder.

 

[Timothew]

Now you sound like Mikecpking. Mike only quotes Old Testament verses about the word soul/nephesh and never New Testament verses. But the Greek psyche and the Hebrew nephesh are not the same thing. The Greek word is much more specific and pinpointed, whereas the Hebrew word is a very broad and general term that can be used to mean anything from perfume to fish. You can't jump back and forth between the Greek and Hebrew and retain a consistent context.

I'm just looking at the word from a wide range of contexts. My daily bible reading is one chapter in the Greek New Testament and one chapter in the Greek Septuagint (Old Testament). Today I was reading Exodus 12 in Greek and came across this usage of psuche and I thought I'd share it with y'all. Perhaps you don't read the old and new testaments in greek every day as I do. Perhaps you can use some of my experience with the greek language. Maybe you can't and that's OK. I'm a reader, but not an expert. I did think I had something to contribute because perhaps you and gradyll didn't read Exodus 12 in greek today.

I thought it pertained because this is how the translator of the Septuagint translated the hebrew word for life into greek, psuche.

Excuuuse me for trying to help. Geeze!

 

[Soulgazer]

Matthew 6:23
But if your eyes are unhealthy, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

Ephesians 5:8
For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light
​

These are both paraphrasing the Gospel of Thomas;
(24) His disciples said to him, "Show us the place where you are, since it is necessary for us to seek it."
He said to them, "Whoever has ears, let him hear. There is light within a man of light, and he lights up the whole world. If he does not shine, he is darkness."

Again, it's apples and oranges. There are at least four differing interpretive viewpoints present in the Christian bible, and skipping from scripture to scripture without pointing out the different opinions of the authors merely confuses the issue.

Hell as a place of eternal torment is entirely dependent on the social and geographic background of the particular Authors.

 

[Timothew]

many words have two definitions. Thats what the numbering is beside the definition. There are two types of soul. One referencing to life and another referencing to the spiritual life. (but there are more usages than that, that was just for illustration). Many suggest that because death is so abrupt that the soul is not eternal but but what do you do with verses that suggest that punishment is non ending like this one...."2 thess 1:9 "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;""

What do I do with that verse?! I read what it says, the destruction is everlasting. What have I been saying since the start of this thread?

What do you think this verse says, the non-destruction torment is everlasting? Honestly, read the verse before you post it to say it says something other what what it says, OK?

 

[Soulgazer]

It's a matter of belief Tim, and not a thing for reason. Eternal punishment is not an unknown thing in the ancient Christian world:

And I said to the savior, "Lord, will all the souls then be brought safely into the pure light?" He answered and said to me, "Great things have arisen in your mind, for it is difficult to explain them to others except to those who are from the immovable race. Those on whom the Spirit of life will descend and (with whom) he will be with the power, they will be saved and become perfect and be worthy of the greatness and be purified in that place from all wickedness and the involvements in evil. Then they have no other care than the incorruption alone, to which they direct their attention from here on, without anger or envy or jealousy or desire and greed of anything. They are not affected by anything except the state of being in the flesh alone, which they bear while looking expectantly for the time when they will be met by the receivers (of the body). Such then are worthy of the imperishable, eternal life and the calling. For they endure everything and bear up under everything, that they may finish the good fight and inherit eternal life."
I said to him, "Lord, the souls of those who did not do these works (but) on whom the power and Spirit descended, (will they be rejected?" He answered and said to me, "If) the Spirit (descended upon them), they will in any case be saved, and they will change (for the better). For the power will descend on every man, for without it no one can stand. And after they are born, then, when the Spirit of life increases and the power comes and strengthens that soul, no one can lead it astray with works of evil. But those on whom the counterfeit spirit descends are drawn by him and they go astray."
And I said, "Lord, where will the souls of these go when they have come out of their flesh?" And he smiled and said to me, "The soul in which the power will become stronger than the counterfeit spirit, is strong and it flees from evil and, through the intervention of the incorruptible one, it is saved, and it is taken up to the rest of the aeons."
And I said, "Lord, those, however, who have not known to whom they belong, where will their souls be?" And he said to me, "In those, the despicable spirit has gained strength when they went astray. And he burdens the soul and draws it to the works of evil, and he casts it down into forgetfulness. And after it comes out of (the body), it is handed over to the authorities, who came into being through the archon, and they bind it with chains and cast it into prison, and consort with it until it is liberated from the forgetfulness and acquires knowledge. And if thus it becomes perfect, it is saved."
And I said, "Lord, how can the soul become smaller and return into the nature of its mother or into man?" Then he rejoiced when I asked him this, and he said to me, "Truly, you are blessed, for you have understood! That soul is made to follow another one (fem.), since the Spirit of life is in it. It is saved through him. It is not again cast into another flesh."
And I said, "Lord, these also who did not know, but have turned away, where will their souls go?" Then he said to me, "To that place where the angels of poverty go they will be taken, the place where there is no repentance. And they will be kept for the day on which those who have blasphemed the spirit will be tortured, and they will be punished with eternal punishment."

 

[createdtoworship]

What do I do with that verse?! I read what it says, the destruction is everlasting. What have I been saying since the start of this thread?

What do you think this verse says, the non-destruction torment is everlasting? Honestly, read the verse before you post it to say it says something other what what it says, OK?

how can destruction be everlasting? The Bible says that the fires of hell don't consume the captives but only to torment them. Destruction is one time. BUt if it says eternal destruction then the soul is not destroyed temporarily.

 

[Timothew]

It's a matter of belief Tim, and not a thing for reason. Eternal punishment is not an unknown thing in the ancient Christian world:

I know the belief in eternal torment was known in the ancient world. I didn't really see it in the passage you provided, but I know that it pre-dates christianity. The greeks held this belief before Christ.
I've also read the apocalypse of peter which is full of torment, but I don't accept the apocalypse of peter as an authentic christian letter. (or Thomas, as it was most likely not written by an apostle of Christ).

I believe we can reason together and come up with a biblical understanding of what happens after death. Particularly if we keep in mind where these other beliefs came from, Greek and Roman religion.

I believe Paul's letters are authentic, and the 4 gospels. I accept the current canon as authentic, written by apostles, or close associates (Luke-Acts).