Let's Talk About Hell (2)

[LutheranMafia]

What is your answer, considering Matthew 7:13?
How many will enter the road that leads to destruction?

Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy (every evil, abusive, injurious speaking, or indignity against sacred things) can be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the [Holy] Spirit shall not and cannot be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Spirit, the Holy One, will not be forgiven, either in this world and age or in the world and age to come.
Matthew 12:31-32
​

There are things that can be forgiven in this age, and things that can only be forgiven in the age to come. In this age many will go to Hell, but their souls will not be destroyed and they will be forgiven in the world to come. Only a few will be unable to avoid eternal damnation.

 

[LutheranMafia]

You said my belief is atheistic. How is believing in the resurrection atheistic?

Well, here you are extoling the virtues of atheists in this regard:

…they [atheists] don't have your preconceived notions and your closed mind and your stubbornness and your refusal to see the actual definitions of words and agree to those definitions.

And you speak of death in exactly the same manner as atheists do:

What do you call the term for death where the dead person just lays there and doesn't return your telephone calls and they eventually decompose and become dust...

 

[Timothew]

Well, here you are extoling the virtues of atheists in this regard:
And you speak of death in exactly the same manner as atheists do:

Atheists believe as I do that Jesus Christ will raise them from death on the last day? Fascinating. Do atheists know that they believe this?

 

[Mikecpking]

Ah, excellent verse. So there are two verses in the Bible that speak of soul death (along with Matthew 10:28), but none that speak of spirit death.

I believe this is proof that the spirit is indestructible and that the soul and the spirit have a divergent fate for the damned.

What do you think 'soul' and 'spirit' mean?

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Ah, excellent verse. So there are two verses in the Bible that speak of soul death (along with Matthew 10:28), but none that speak of spirit death.

I believe this is proof that the spirit is indestructible and that the soul and the spirit have a divergent fate for the damned.

Ecclesiastes 12

Remember your Creator
in the days of your youth,
before the days of trouble come
and the years approach when you will say,
“I find no pleasure in them”—
2 before the sun and the light
and the moon and the stars grow dark,
and the clouds return after the rain;
3 when the keepers of the house tremble,
and the strong men stoop,
when the grinders cease because they are few,
and those looking through the windows grow dim;
4 when the doors to the street are closed
and the sound of grinding fades;
when people rise up at the sound of birds,
but all their songs grow faint;
5 when people are afraid of heights
and of dangers in the streets;
when the almond tree blossoms
and the grasshopper drags itself along
and desire no longer is stirred.
Then people go to their eternal home
and mourners go about the streets. 6 Remember him—before the silver cord is severed,
and the golden bowl is broken;
before the pitcher is shattered at the spring,
and the wheel broken at the well,
7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
8 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.[a]
“Everything is meaningless!”

How would you interpret verse 7 then?

This is kind of how I understand spirit

The Meaning of "Spirit" in the Old Testament

Basically, ( I think I asked this earlier but it can't hurt to ask again)

What is the difference between soul and spirit? I always understood spirit as being "the breath of life" that God gives to all living things. I had heard animals had spirit too.

I'm just saying, if that's what spirit really means, its all the more interesting.

If we have three parts, body, soul, and spirit, then it would actually give reason for credence against the eternal torment in hellfire theory.

The dust returns to the earth, the spirit (breath of life) returns to God, and the soul is either saved or destroyed. Assuming option 2 is the truth.

Ezekiel 18
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 “What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel: “‘The parents eat sour grapes,
and the children’s teeth are set on edge’?

3 “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.

19 “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.
21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

The word soul is sometimes replaced with simply 'person' depending on the translation you use, and it makes sense. This is one of the numerous reasons I asked what the difference is between a soul and a spirit.

 

[Hillsage]

What do you think 'soul' and 'spirit' mean?

I know you didn't ask me, but this subject is something I've spent a lot of time in.

The spirit is that which is the image of God and is therefore eternal and also the life-source of a man. I mentioned in an earlier post that when the spirit departs your body is dead. A spirit cannot die even as God cannot die for spirits are always eternal. No scripture points to a dead spirit, only the finger of tradition teaches such, and I've explained that from my POV earlier. But a spirit can be "broken", "quenched", "stilled". I summarize the spirit as being the 'animating life force of a human'.

The soul is the mind, will, emotions and comes from the Greek word Psuche from which we get words like psychology, psycho-somatic, and words dealing with the psyche of man. It is the decision making part of the triune man. Therefore I call the soul the 'motivating life force of a human'.

The soul's influences/desires come from the two other sources of our triune being. One source is the flesh and the other is the spirit. Upon the new birth your spirit and the Holy Spirit are one in essence and direction. If your soul chooses to follow the desires of the spirit then you will lead your flesh about as a slave and you will not commit sin. If your soul follows after your fleshly desires then you "quench" the Sspirit and commit sin.

Jesus said the spirit is willing and the flesh is weak. I'm adding that the soul is the determining factor for bodily action. Two out of three always wins. It's spirit/soul over the body...or body/soul over the spirit.

 

[Mikecpking]

I know you didn't ask me, but this subject is something I've spent a lot of time in.

The spirit is that which is the image of God and is therefore eternal and also the life-source of a man. I mentioned in an earlier post that when the spirit departs your body is dead. A spirit cannot die even as God cannot die for spirits are always eternal. No scripture points to a dead spirit, only the finger of tradition teaches such, and I've explained that from my POV earlier. But a spirit can be "broken", "quenched", "stilled". I summarize the spirit as being the 'animating life force of a human'.

The soul is the mind, will, emotions and comes from the Greek word Psuche from which we get words like psychology, psycho-somatic, and words dealing with the psyche of man. It is the decision making part of the triune man. Therefore I call the soul the 'motivating life force of a human'.

The soul's influences/desires come from the two other sources of our triune being. One source is the flesh and the other is the spirit. Upon the new birth your spirit and the Holy Spirit are one in essence and direction. If your soul chooses to follow the desires of the spirit then you will lead your flesh about as a slave and you will not commit sin. If your soul follows after your fleshly desires then you "quench" the Sspirit and commit sin.

Jesus said the spirit is willing and the flesh is weak. I'm adding that the soul is the determining factor for bodily action. Two out of three always wins. It's spirit/soul over the body...or body/soul over the spirit.

Hi Hillsage,
I agree on the definition of 'spirit' to a certain degree, but it is 'breath of life', but it is not 'us'. Soul certainly is not the mind (nous). 'Soul' is either the whole person (gen 2:7) or it is the life bound up in the body, transported by blood (lev 17:11). It is emotions of a physical kind.

 

[Hillsage]

Hi Hillsage,
I agree on the definition of 'spirit' to a certain degree, but it is 'breath of life', but it is not 'us'. Soul certainly is not the mind (nous). 'Soul' is either the whole person (gen 2:7) or it is the life bound up in the body, transported by blood (lev 17:11). It is emotions of a physical kind.

Hello back to ya Mike,
Do you believe you are made "in the image of God"? Scripture says "God is Spirit". Scripture says he is"the father of spirits". Now you can believe that God is just 'hot air' or you can believe that scripture was speaking metaphorically concerning "the breath of life". I'm in the metaphorical camp, but if there is another option please share, and back it with scripture.

If you think that "soul is the whole person" or "the life bound up in the body" then you must believe that animals are made in the image of God also, for the same Hebrew words used for animals are also used for man. Chay nephesh is translated "living soul" for man in 2:7 of Genesis and it is translated a "living creatures" for animals in Genesis 1:24. Did you know that? How does that work in your theological view of man/animals/god?

 

[Soulgazer]

The Apocryphon of James records it thusly:

For he knows the desire and also that which the flesh needs. Because it is not the flesh which yearns for the soul. For without the soul the body does not sin, just as the soul is not saved without the Spirit. But if the soul is saved when it is without evil, and if the spirit also is saved, then the body becomes sinless. For it is the spirit which animates the soul, but it is the body which kills it - that is, it is the soul which kills itself. Truly I say to you, the Father will not forgive the sin of the soul at all, nor the guilt of the flesh. For none of those who have worn the flesh will be saved. For do you imagine that many have found the Kingdom of Heaven? Blessed is the one who has seen himself as a fourth one in Heaven."

We interpret it as saying that those who still live according to the hyle, or matter, following instinctual desire are "wearing" the flesh.

 

[Hillsage]

The Apocryphon of James records it thusly:We interpret it as saying that those who still live according to the hyle, or matter, following instinctual desire are "wearing" the flesh.

There is definitely way more depth to his words than your brief comment. But let me just comment on your comment.

When Paul said "this earthly tent that I live in" when referencing his physical body, he was essentially 'in the flesh, but not necessarily, of the flesh' correct? So if Paul was not identifying with himself as a body, what is he identifying with, as the essence of his being?

PS Are Gnostics dicotomists or tricotomist?

 

[Soulgazer]

There is definitely way more depth to his words than your brief comment. But let me just comment on your comment.

When Paul said "this earthly tent that I live in" when referencing his physical body, he was essentially 'in the flesh, but not necessarily, of the flesh' correct? So if Paul was not identifying with himself as a body, what is he identifying with, as the essence of his being?

PS Are Gnostics dicotomists or tricotomist?

We believe in our confessional history that Paul taught us of the four parts of human existence. Part one is the basic animal nature, that encompasses not only our flesh and blood, but also our biological instincts and emotions. One step up from that, is our intellectual nature, that encompasses how we reason and think, and all of the mind mechanics involved. One step up from that, is our Divine nature, that underdeveloped potentiality that encompasses our highest ideologies.

The forth part, and slightly more esoteric is where we choose to "live" in the previous three parts. This is our "I AM", and the ability to step back and disassociate and examine ourselves, to watch and observe as the three parts interact and perform their functions, and to choose which demand to act upon as each of the three make their demands on our "I AM".

To simplify it, "I am not my body, it's just the vehicle that allows me to explore this plane".

This is crucial to understanding of some of the deeper text:

{Jesus Said}Nothing, therefore, of the things which they will say of me have I suffered: nay, that suffering also which I showed unto thee and the rest in the dance, I will that it be called a mystery. For what thou art, thou seest, for I showed it thee; but what I am I alone know, and no man else. Suffer me then to keep that which is mine, and that which is thine behold thou through me, and behold me in truth, that I am, not what I said, but what thou art able to know, because thou art akin thereto. Thou hearest that I suffered, yet did I not suffer; that I suffered not, yet did I suffer; that I was pierced, yet I was not smitten; hanged, and I was not hanged; that blood flowed from me, and it flowed not; and, in a word, what they say of me, that befell me not, but what they say not, that did I suffer. Now what those things are I signify unto thee, for I know that thou wilt understand. Perceive thou therefore in me the rest of the Word (Logos), the piercing of the Word, the blood of the Word, the wound of the Word, the hanging up of the Word, the suffering of the Word, the nailing (fixing) of the Word, the death of the Word. And so speak I, separating off the manhood. Perceive thou therefore in the first place of the Word; then shalt thou perceive the Lord, and in the third place the man, and what he hath suffered.

 

[Mikecpking]

Hello back to ya Mike,
Do you believe you are made "in the image of God"? Scripture says "God is Spirit". Scripture says he is"the father of spirits". Now you can believe that God is just 'hot air' or you can believe that scripture was speaking metaphorically concerning "the breath of life". I'm in the metaphorical camp, but if there is another option please share, and back it with scripture.

We are talking about human and animal spirit:
Ecclesiastes 3:18-19

New International Version (NIV)


18 I also said to myself, “As for humans, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals. 19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath[a]; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless.
Footnotes:

1. Ecclesiastes 3:19 Or spirit

Also:

Job 27:3

New International Version (NIV)


3 as long as I have life within me,
the breath of God in my nostrils,

Obviously, the spirit is more than mere breath, it is a powerful part of inerplay between God and ourselves in areas of moral judgement, spirituality etc.

If you think that "soul is the whole person" or "the life bound up in the body" then you must believe that animals are made in the image of God also, for the same Hebrew words used for animals are also used for man. Chay nephesh is translated "living soul" for man in 2:7 of Genesis and it is translated a "living creatures" for animals in Genesis 1:24. Did you know that? How does that work in your theological view of man/animals/god?

Humans and animals are nephesh, they don't have souls, they are souls which was exactly my point that there is no such thing as an immortal soul. Strong's defines nephesh as a 'breathing creature'.

Here is the best study on the web about nephesh (soul)

Welcome to the Sites of Dr. Tory Hoff

 

[Hillsage]

We are talking about human and animal spirit:

And that means what to you? Does it mean Humans and animals are made in the image of God (with spirit), but only man has the ability and directive from God to pursue 'after the likeness of God'?

Job 27:3 as long as I have life within me,
the breath of God in my nostrils,

Obviously, the spirit is more than mere breath, it is a powerful part of inerplay between God and ourselves in areas of moral judgement, spirituality etc.

There is definitely more than I have comprehended personally. But I cannot make the leap that God is just 'air'. I think there is a metaphor that is being missed, possibly by all of us. As I studied "breathed" "nostrils" last night and their definitions it came to me that God no more puffed physical air into the clay model of Adam, than a mother 'jump starts' her child to start breathing by 'blowing air/breathed into her baby's face/nostrils'. I am having to rethink things, but more and more all the fighting over non essentials seems more and more important to me. And I always say it is good to have the opinion you are right but it is bad to have the opinion that everyone else is wrong.

Humans and animals are nephesh, they don't have souls, they are souls which was exactly my point that there is no such thing as an immortal soul. Strong's defines nephesh as a 'breathing creature'.

I agree that humans and animals are both chay nephesh and not just nephesh. I have never stated that the soul was immortal, so we don't differ there. I know Strong's definition, but I question as to whether or not it is best...even as the URL you pointed out concerning almost everyone (before him ) got it wrong. To many scriptures confusing and muddying the issue.

Here is the best study on the web about nephesh (soul)

Welcome to the Sites of Dr. Tory Hoff

Well I read the article and I don't know if it's the best on the web or not, since I doubt anyone has read everything on the web. I did have one part in particular jump out that I disagree with...at lest in part. And that is the underlined section below;

"These translations go back to the Septuagint, the ancient Greek translation, and they lead in the false direction of a dichotomic or trichotomic anthropology, in which body, soul and spirit are in opposition to one another."
​

It seems to me that Jesus himself pointed out that there is at least extreme opposition between body and spirit when he said "the spirit is willing and the flesh is weak." And Galatians points out an opposition when it says;

GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

I might add that in this verse I don't think that translators should have capitalized spirit making it the Spirit of God and not our spirit. They didn't capitalize it when Jesus spoke the same thing.

 

[Hillsage]

We believe in our confessional history that Paul taught us of the four parts of human existence.

Paul taught this in the scriptures? Or just in extra canonical writings? Or in part of both?

{Jesus Said}Nothing, therefore, of the things which they will say of me have I suffered: nay, that suffering also which I showed unto thee and the rest in the dance, I will that it be called a mystery. For what thou art, thou seest, for I showed it thee; but what I am I alone know, and no man else. Suffer me then to keep that which is mine, and that which is thine behold thou through me, and behold me in truth, that I am, not what I said, but what thou art able to know, because thou art akin thereto. Thou hearest that I suffered, yet did I not suffer; that I suffered not, yet did I suffer; that I was pierced, yet I was not smitten; hanged, and I was not hanged; that blood flowed from me, and it flowed not; and, in a word, what they say of me, that befell me not, but what they say not, that did I suffer. Now what those things are I signify unto thee, for I know that thou wilt understand. Perceive thou therefore in me the rest of the Word (Logos), the piercing of the Word, the blood of the Word, the wound of the Word, the hanging up of the Word, the suffering of the Word, the nailing (fixing) of the Word, the death of the Word. And so speak I, separating off the manhood. Perceive thou therefore in the first place of the Word; then shalt thou perceive the Lord, and in the third place the man, and what he hath suffered.

This is again extra canonical, and something I admittedly wrestle with. I'm not saying it is or it isn't true. But Gnosticism seems to rest on too much extra biblical writing for me to be totally comfortable. Heck I'm not totally comfortable with anything...including all that's in my own doctrinal box.

 

[Soulgazer]

Paul taught this in the scriptures? Or just in extra canonical writings? Or in part of both?

Both.

This is again extra canonical, and something I admittedly wrestle with. I'm not saying it is or it isn't true. But Gnosticism seems to rest on too much extra biblical writing for me to be totally comfortable. Heck I'm not totally comfortable with anything...including all that's in my own doctrinal box.

I understand. I do not expect you to believe it, only respect that I believe it, and appreciate that I have reasons that are considered valid in my denomination.

I have read your writings with interest, because you have apparently been having an unfolding of gnosis, as has Tim. I cannot interfere, as that is antithetical to what we follow, but I do understand the struggle up the ladder; I can answer a direct question, but all in all I have to bite my tongue as you wear the Rubie Slippers and try to discover what they are for.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Humans and animals are nephesh, they don't have souls, they are souls which was exactly my point that there is no such thing as an immortal soul. Strong's defines nephesh as a 'breathing creature'.

That doesn't make any sense in the context of Matthew 10:28 where Jesus says that only the body can be killed by human persecutors, but that God can destroy both body and soul in Hell. Your argument that the soul is the totality of the person would render Matthew 10:28 completely meaningless.

 

[LutheranMafia]

7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
8 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.[a]
“Everything is meaningless!”

How would you interpret verse 7 then?

I think that returning to God means going to Heaven. In the Old Testament whenever Sheol is mentioned it is associated with the soul, never with the spirit. Spirits don't go to Sheol in the OT, only souls.

The only exception to this is in Ecclesiates 3:21.

Who knows if the spirit of man rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?
​

But Ecclesiastes says nothing about animal spirits going to Sheol. I think that Ecclesiastes 3:21 points to a basic difference between animal spirits and human spirits. When it comes to soul/nephesh there is little distinction between animals and humans, as indicated by the verses that Hilsage mentioned in Genesis. But I think that the spirit of humans is fundamentally different from wild animals (but not necessarily from pets, especially dogs).

Anyway, as to your original question I think that returning to God means going to Heaven. Here is another passage on this:

All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one.
Hebews 11:13-16
​

I believe that until the time of the Resurrection when all the elements dissolve (2 Peter 3:10-12) and the old Earth and Heaven are swept away and there is a new Heaven and a new Earth (2 Peter 3:13, Rev 21:1)--until that time we are strangers on Earth and Heaven is our real home. Only at the time of Resurrection when everything is transformed will the kingdom of God be on Earth as well as Heaven. Until that time, going to God means going home to Heaven.

 

[LutheranMafia]

If we have three parts, body, soul, and spirit, then it would actually give reason for credence against the eternal torment in hellfire theory.

Why is that?

The dust returns to the earth, the spirit (breath of life) returns to God, and the soul is either saved or destroyed.

As I mentioned from Ecclesiates 3:21, spirits don't always return to God. The spirit of feral animals don't belong to God. I think there are humans that have the same kind of spirits as feral animals, spirits that never go to God.

Assuming option 2 is the truth.

What is option 2?

 

[Lord Herdsetk]

Option 2 is those who aren't saved simply perish. Obviously, mileage will vary on who is saved on this forum.

Ecclesiastes 3:21 seems to be more of a question of who goes where than a definitive answer. Its Solomon pondering about this. What makes humans so different from animals, we all die and return to dust. All have the same breath. Who is to say that humans go to be with God but animals don't? That's what this chapter seems to be saying. Its asking questions.

 

[LutheranMafia]

What do you think 'soul' and 'spirit' mean?

The word soul is sometimes replaced with simply 'person' depending on the translation you use, and it makes sense. This is one of the numerous reasons I asked what the difference is between a soul and a spirit.

The most striking difference is that soul can be destroyed while spirit cannot. Also, when it comes to Sheol it is always souls that go there, the word spirit (ruach) is never mentioned in conjunction with Sheol.

Beyond that it is hard to tell them apart:

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow;
Hebrews 4:12
​

Dividing soul and spirit is compared to dividing joint and marrow. They are close together from our earthly perspective and hard to differentiate.