Let's suppose God did....

[Ana the Ist]

There ya go, Paradoxum. How can you not be convinced by that? He got Adam, Eve, the garden of Eden, and Jesus all in the same post. I am dissapointed that he did not expend the effort to work in Moses and the Great Flud.

It seems to me that if god intended for the bible and its stories to be evidential, he would've been sure to make them much more....unique...and not so much like other mythologies that preceded it.

 

[pjnlsn]

He's been doing it every moment of every day since the beginning of creation when He walked with Adam and Eve in the cool of the garden. Salvation has always been by faith through grace, and this is a gift of God, not of works, so that no one can boast.

He is speaking to you right now my dear.

Jesus says: "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone (that means you too Paradoxum ) hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to them and eat with them, and they with me."

Listen for His voice my dear, and open your heart to Him, He wants you more than you could ever know.

What is written in the Bible is not necessarily true.

 

[Elioenai26]

Belief in the existence of God is unlike belief in mathematical axiomatic expressions, or laws of nature which are subject to scientific inquiry and verification and which make no claims upon us as individuals.

If I am told that energy equals mass times the speed of light squared or that the square root of 64 is 8, then me accepting that as true is not going to lay a claim on my lifestyle, my desires, or me as a person. One's sexual orientation, love for pornography, love for gambling, love for sexual promiscuity or fornication, lust for filthy lucre, greed, sadomasochistic fetishes, love of money, love for alternate sexualities, love for drugs, love for alcohol and cigarettes and numerous other vices and ills are in no way brought under the microscope if one intellectually assents to the fact that 8 is the square root of 64, or the fact that the earth revolves around the sun.

But if one assents to the proposition:

"God exists"...

then this changes everything (or at least should). If God exists, then there is one who will hold us accountable for every act we commit and even every thought we think. If God exists, then He knows that you cheated on your taxes last year, or that you cursed the driver in the car in front of you for driving too slow even if no one could hear you. He knows the lustful thoughts you have towards someone who is not your husband or wife. He knows every pornographic website you visit and how many times a day you touch. He knows the thoughts you have in your head about the co-worker you hate and despise for whatever reason. He knows your prejudices, your judgmental attitudes towards others, your apathy towards those in need. He knows your hypocrisy and dishonesty even when no one else is privy to it.

Assenting to the proposition: "God exists", also means that you know God is worthy of worship and honor. He is worth everything you could ever give, not excluding your very life.

This knowledge is a very large pill for some to swallow. Instead of swallowing it, they deny it exists. What better way to soothe one's conscience than to eliminate the very cause for any introspection? With God gone, all things are permissible. Men can be free to be gods and live as they please, committing all manner of shameless, reprehensible acts with a clear conscience.

If someone does not want their to be a God, the very desire can cause even the most undeniable proofs of God to simply be explained away and swept under the rug. Lustful desire is an all consuming fire which will devour the one who leaves it unchecked.

God has a word for those who say in their heart that He does not exist. They are called fools. Fools who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. For that which can be known about God is evident to all and plainly understood by the things that have been made, so that no one has an excuse.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Belief in the existence of God is unlike belief in mathematical axiomatic expressions, or laws of nature which are subject to scientific inquiry and verification and which make no claims upon us as individuals.

If I am told that energy equals mass times the speed of light squared or that the square root of 64 is 8, then me accepting that as true is not going to lay a claim on my lifestyle, my desires, or me as a person. One's sexual orientation, love for pornography, love for gambling, love for sexual promiscuity or fornication, lust for filthy lucre, greed, sadomasochistic fetishes, love of money, love for alternate sexualities, love for drugs, love for alcohol and cigarettes and numerous other vices and ills are in no way brought under the microscope if one intellectually assents to the fact that 8 is the square root of 64, or the fact that the earth revolves around the sun.

But if one assents to the proposition:

"God exists"...

then this changes everything (or at least should). If God exists, then there is one who will hold us accountable for every act we commit and even every thought we think. If God exists, then He knows that you cheated on your taxes last year, or that you cursed the driver in the car in front of you for driving too slow even if no one could hear you. He knows the lustful thoughts you have towards someone who is not your husband or wife. He knows every pornographic website you visit and how many times a day you touch. He knows the thoughts you have in your head about the co-worker you hate and despise for whatever reason. He knows your prejudices, your judgmental attitudes towards others, your apathy towards those in need. He knows your hypocrisy and dishonesty even when no one else is privy to it.

Assenting to the proposition: "God exists", also means that you know God is worthy of worship and honor. He is worth everything you could ever give, not excluding your very life.

This knowledge is a very large pill for some to swallow. Instead of swallowing it, they deny it exists. What better way to soothe one's conscience than to eliminate the very cause for any introspection? With God gone, all things are permissible. Men can be free to be gods and live as they please, committing all manner of shameless, reprehensible acts with a clear conscience.

If someone does not want their to be a God, the very desire can cause even the most undeniable proofs of God to simply be explained away and swept under the rug.

This seems self contradictory....

" If someone does not want their to be a God, the very desire can cause even the most undeniable proofs of God to simply be explained away and swept under the rug."

How can someone deny an "undeniable" proof? One would need an undeniable proof to begin with to make such an assertion without sounding foolish.

 

[Elioenai26]

This seems self contradictory....

" If someone does not want their to be a God, the very desire can cause even the most undeniable proofs of God to simply be explained away and swept under the rug."

How can someone deny an "undeniable" proof? One would need an undeniable proof to begin with to make such an assertion without sounding foolish.

There is undeniable proof that God exists. But you have to be willing to see it. The sun cannot be seen by a blind man even at noonday when it shines in all its strength.

 

[Ana the Ist]

There is undeniable proof that God exists. But you have to be willing to see it. The sun cannot be seen by a blind man even at noonday when it shines in all its strength.

Undeniable proof would not require "willingness" to be evident. It needs only to be observed. Personally, I love "blind man/sun" analogies because we all know what happens to the sighted man who stares at the sun and ignores the world around him don't we?

 

[Davian]

Belief in the existence of God is unlike belief in mathematical axiomatic expressions, or laws of nature which are subject to scientific inquiry and verification and which make no claims upon us as individuals.

If I am told that energy equals mass times the speed of light squared or that the square root of 64 is 8, then me accepting that as true is not going to lay a claim on my lifestyle, my desires, or me as a person. One's sexual orientation, love for pornography, love for gambling, love for sexual promiscuity or fornication, lust for filthy lucre, greed, sadomasochistic fetishes, love of money, love for alternate sexualities, love for drugs, love for alcohol and cigarettes and numerous other vices and ills are in no way brought under the microscope if one intellectually assents to the fact that 8 is the square root of 64, or the fact that the earth revolves around the sun.

But if one assents to the proposition:

"God exists"...

then this changes everything (or at least should). If God exists, then there is one who will hold us accountable for every act we commit and even every thought we think. If God exists, then He knows that you cheated on your taxes last year, or that you cursed the driver in the car in front of you for driving too slow even if no one could hear you. He knows the lustful thoughts you have towards someone who is not your husband or wife. He knows every pornographic website you visit and how many times a day you touch. He knows the thoughts you have in your head about the co-worker you hate and despise for whatever reason. He knows your prejudices, your judgmental attitudes towards others, your apathy towards those in need. He knows your hypocrisy and dishonesty even when no one else is privy to it.

Assenting to the proposition: "God exists", also means that you know God is worthy of worship and honor. He is worth everything you could ever give, not excluding your very life.

This knowledge is a very large pill for some to swallow. Instead of swallowing it, they deny it exists. What better way to soothe one's conscience than to eliminate the very cause for any introspection? With God gone, all things are permissible. Men can be free to be gods and live as they please, committing all manner of shameless, reprehensible acts with a clear conscience.

If someone does not want their to be a God, the very desire can cause even the most undeniable proofs of God to simply be explained away and swept under the rug. Lustful desire is an all consuming fire which will devour the one who leaves it unchecked.

God has a word for those who say in their heart that He does not exist. They are called fools. Fools who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. For that which can be known about God is evident to all and plainly understood by the things that have been made, so that no one has an excuse.

When all else fails, preach.

 

[Elioenai26]

People have to be looking for something in order to find it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

People have to be looking for something in order to find it.

If you're speaking of truth, which I have always searched for, what makes you think I haven't found it?

 

[Elioenai26]

Undeniable proof would not require "willingness" to be evident. It needs only to be observed. Personally, I love "blind man/sun" analogies because we all know what happens to the sighted man who stares at the sun and ignores the world around him don't we?

If a man who can see, stares at the sun, all he can see is the sun. He will see the sun even after he looks away from it and is able to see not only the sun, but everything around him by the light of the sun. If he stares too long, his vision will be impaired and he will be lost in the sun. This shows him that the sun is not to be looked upon at the expense of his sight for the world under the sun, but rather that the sun is to be looked at as being the source of light for the world.

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. - C.S. Lewis.

 

[Elioenai26]

If you're speaking of truth, which I have always searched for, what makes you think I haven't found it?

Do you still search for the truth? If so, then you have yet to find it. For why search for that which you have already found?

 

[Ana the Ist]

If a man who can see, stares at the sun, all he can see is the sun. He will see the sun even after he looks away from it and is able to see not only the sun, but everything around him by the light of the sun. If he stares too long, his vision will be impaired and he will be lost in the sun. This shows him that the sun is not to be looked upon at the expense of his sight for the world under the sun, but rather that the sun is to be looked at as being the source of light for the world.

I believe in Christianity as I believe that the sun has risen: not only because I see it, but because by it I see everything else. - C.S. Lewis.

If you cannot see anything without the sun, I'd have to say you've stared too long.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Do you still search for the truth? If so, then you have yet to find it. For why search for that which you have already found?

Of course I search for the truth, there are many truths to be known, many falsehoods to dispel....and even if I spend my entire life searching for truths I would never claim to know them all.

 

[pjnlsn]

Belief in the existence of God is unlike belief in mathematical axiomatic expressions, or laws of nature which are subject to scientific inquiry and verification and which make no claims upon us as individuals.

If I am told that energy equals mass times the speed of light squared or that the square root of 64 is 8, then me accepting that as true is not going to lay a claim on my lifestyle, my desires, or me as a person. One's sexual orientation, love for pornography, love for gambling, love for sexual promiscuity or fornication, lust for filthy lucre, greed, sadomasochistic fetishes, love of money, love for alternate sexualities, love for drugs, love for alcohol and cigarettes and numerous other vices and ills are in no way brought under the microscope if one intellectually assents to the fact that 8 is the square root of 64, or the fact that the earth revolves around the sun.

But if one assents to the proposition:

"God exists"...

then this changes everything (or at least should). If God exists, then there is one who will hold us accountable for every act we commit and even every thought we think. If God exists, then He knows that you cheated on your taxes last year, or that you cursed the driver in the car in front of you for driving too slow even if no one could hear you. He knows the lustful thoughts you have towards someone who is not your husband or wife. He knows every pornographic website you visit and how many times a day you touch. He knows the thoughts you have in your head about the co-worker you hate and despise for whatever reason. He knows your prejudices, your judgmental attitudes towards others, your apathy towards those in need. He knows your hypocrisy and dishonesty even when no one else is privy to it.

Assenting to the proposition: "God exists", also means that you know God is worthy of worship and honor. He is worth everything you could ever give, not excluding your very life.

This knowledge is a very large pill for some to swallow. Instead of swallowing it, they deny it exists. What better way to soothe one's conscience than to eliminate the very cause for any introspection? With God gone, all things are permissible. Men can be free to be gods and live as they please, committing all manner of shameless, reprehensible acts with a clear conscience.

If someone does not want their to be a God, the very desire can cause even the most undeniable proofs of God to simply be explained away and swept under the rug. Lustful desire is an all consuming fire which will devour the one who leaves it unchecked.

God has a word for those who say in their heart that He does not exist. They are called fools. Fools who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. For that which can be known about God is evident to all and plainly understood by the things that have been made, so that no one has an excuse.

(Barring differences in how words are defined between writer and reader

Again, even if every single person on the planet believed, fervently and without reservation, there would still be no proof.

Or if all people were unable to deny that this (largely unknown) thing exists, or if one were to accuse those who point out the lack of tangibility of being mildly deluded, it would also not mean that there was proof.

 

[Davian]

Belief in the existence of God is unlike belief in mathematical axiomatic expressions, or laws of nature which are subject to scientific inquiry and verification and which make no claims upon us as individuals.

If I am told that energy equals mass times the speed of light squared or that the square root of 64 is 8, then me accepting that as true is not going to lay a claim on my lifestyle, my desires, or me as a person. One's sexual orientation,

bigotry,

love for pornography, love for gambling, love for sexual promiscuity or fornication, lust for filthy lucre, greed, sadomasochistic fetishes, love of money, love for alternate sexualities, love for drugs, love for alcohol and cigarettes and numerous other vices and ills are in no way brought under the microscope if one intellectually assents to the fact that 8 is the square root of 64, or the fact that the earth revolves around the sun.

Do you believe that? Does not the bible say otherwise?

But if one assents to the proposition:

"God exists"...

then this changes everything (or at least should). If God exists, then there is one who will hold us accountable for every act we commit and even every thought we think. If God exists, then He knows that you cheated on your taxes last year, or that you cursed the driver in the car in front of you for driving too slow even if no one could hear you. He knows the lustful thoughts you have towards someone who is not your husband or wife. He knows every pornographic website you visit and how many times a day you touch. He knows the thoughts you have in your head about the co-worker you hate and despise for whatever reason. He knows your prejudices, your judgmental attitudes towards others, your apathy towards those in need. He knows your hypocrisy and dishonesty even when no one else is privy to it.

And as previously discussed, is of no relevance as long as you believe.

Assenting to the proposition: "God exists", also means that you know God is worthy of worship and honor. He is worth everything you could ever give, not excluding your very life.

This knowledge is a very large pill for some to swallow.

What knowledge? All you have provided is unevidenced assertion.

Instead of swallowing it, they deny it exists.

False dichotomy. Not accepting unevidenced assertions is a third option.

What better way to soothe one's conscience than to eliminate the very cause for any introspection? With God gone, all things are permissible. Men can be free to be gods and live as they please, committing all manner of shameless, reprehensible acts with a clear conscience.

No, not if they want to stay married, and out of jail.

If someone does not want their to be a God, the very desire can cause even the most undeniable proofs of God to simply be explained away and swept under the rug. Lustful desire is an all consuming fire which will devour the one who leaves it unchecked.

Are you describing yourself here? And where are these proof you keep going on about? Are you holding back?

God has a word for those who say in their heart that He does not exist. They are called fools. Fools who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. For that which can be known about God is evident to all and plainly understood by the things that have been made, so that no one has an excuse.

I don't say gods don't exist, so your insults are lost on me.

I always found that that 'fools' line to be very self-defeating. It seems to me a line that a con would use on a mark: "You'd be a fool not to put your money into my scheme... those fools over there don't know what they are missing out on. Trust me."

 

[variant]

I always love these threads where some believer generally a curmudgeon like the OP sees fit to tell me that I would deny a in your face booming "look at me" from a God.

It's quite striking actually.

No, Mr OP I'm an atheist because there isn't the slightest bit of verifiable evidence that even suggests your religion is true, not because God is up in the sky holding constant "I am God and this is what you should do" expositions and I'm just too stubborn to admit it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I always love these threads where some believer generally a curmudgeon like the OP sees fit to tell me that I would deny a in your face booming "look at me" from a God.

It's quite striking actually.

No, Mr OP I'm an atheist because there isn't the slightest bit of verifiable evidence that even suggests your religion is true, not because God is up in the sky holding constant "I am God and this is what you should do" expositions and I'm just too stubborn to admit it.

I think the key here is that despite the OP's insistence that there is not only evidence, but undeniable evidence, he doesn't bother with mentioning what it is. I can only suspect this is because not only is it deniable....it isn't even evidence.

 

[variant]

I think the key here is that despite the OP's insistence that there is not only evidence, but undeniable evidence, he doesn't bother with mentioning what it is. I can only suspect this is because not only is it deniable....it isn't even evidence.

He can insist on whatever he likes, the point however is his to present the evidence for.

I am not in a position where I am rationally or emotionally obliged to entertain everyones fantasies.

If God were obvious then Atheism would not concern people like the OP like flat earthers don't concern me.

 

[Christian7PraiseJesus]

[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']In such a case I would probably take the word of the scientists who observed the message.
If it happened to me, even if it were a hallucination, I would probably believe it to be true.

Unless I were one of those hundreds of people observing, I would probably think it was a trick.

If I were the only one who heard it, I would assume it were only in my head; if everyone else heard it, I would believe

Yes

K

Yay! You said "you would believe"

"Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life."

Jesus's, God's words, John 8:12

 

[Christian7PraiseJesus]

I think the best sort of way God could reveal himself would be as a constant Spirit. Comparable to how God was with Adam and Eve. Walking with them and talking to them. God as a close and loving Father, rather than a distant loud voice.

The possible doubt would be about whether advanced aliens could doing this to us as an experiment. <-I admit, That's funny!

The problem might not be that atheists can't come up with a doubtless way of knowing God is real, but rather God is just the sort of thing that can't be known without doubt. God isn't physical so we can't never see God as he is... there is nothing to see. We, being physical, can only be influenced by physical things. So any limited physical expression of God could be copied by advanced technology.

But Jesus was physical and He is God... and there is evidence that He existed and was seen by many multitudes.

Jesus is a theophany (God in the human form) and appearance of God. He states "I AM the father" "I and the father are ONE." "Why do ye ask' show us the father? For when you see me, you see the father." He states "I have all the power on heaven and on earth" Matthew...

(1) In Zechariah 12:10, God speaks of the future return of Christ and says, ". . . They shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourne for him, as one mourneth for his only son . . . ." This is spoken again in Revelation 1:7, which is clearly a reference to Christ Himself, but in Zechariah 12:10 GOD said, ". . . They shall look upon me whom they have pierced . . . ." The One that they pierced was Jesus Christ! So, in Zechariah 12:10, God is saying that He is Jesus Christ.

(2) In John 1:1, John 1:14, 1 John 1:1, and in 1 John 5:7, Jesus is called "the Word," and John 1:1 says that "the Word was God."


(3) Thomas referred to Jesus as "My Lord and my God" in John 20:28, and Jesus did not see the need to correct him.

(4) Isaiah 7:14 gives us the prophecy of the Virgin Birth of Christ and states that His name would be "Immanuel." Matthew 1:23 tells us that this word means "God with us."

(5) In Isaiah 9:6, Jesus is called "Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." The Bible certainly would not say this about anyone less than God.


(6) In John 10:30, Jesus says, "I and my Father are one." Jesus is not a lesser god; He is ONE with the Father.


(7) Micah 5:2 tells us that Jesus is "from everlasting."

(8) In John 8:58, Jesus tells the Pharisees, "Before Abraham was, I am." He claimed to be the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14, which is God Almighty.


(9) Jesus allowed others to worship Him (John 9:38; Matt. 14:33; and Luke 24:52), which was forbidden, unless He was God (Rev. 22:9).


(10) Jesus forgave sins (Mark 2:5), which only God can do (Mark 2:7).


(11) The Lord Jesus Christ is omnipresent (Matt. 18:20; 28:20; II Cor. 13:14; I John 5:7). We know He is God because He is capable of being everywhere at once.


(12) Jesus is omniscient (Mark 11:2-6; Matt. 12:40). He is God because He knows all things.


(13) The Lord Jesus is also omnipotent (Rev. 19:6; Matt. 28:18). He has all power.


(14) According to John 1, 1 John 1, Colossians 1, and Hebrews 1, Jesus Christ is the Creator of Genesis 1!


(15) Jesus never sinned! Romans 3:23 says that ALL HAVE SINNED and come short of the glory of God, but Jesus did not sin (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Peter 3:18). So Jesus had to be God.

Jesus also states "Neither be ye called masters, for ONE is your master, Christ"... Then God is referred to as the one master "You cannot serve two masters, you either love or hate the other... You cannot serve both God and mammon" meaning Jesus IS God, the ONE master (no humans or things).

JESUS IS GOD!

So the best thing would be for God to show himself as a ever present Spirit, or many present Spirits... a manifestation of God for each individual. Still we would have to trust the claims of this powerful, wise, and knowledgeable Spirit.

But God showed Himself in Jesus, who was in the flesh. "God is the word and the word became flesh" John.
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”

Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Is this a problem for atheists, or an inherent problem of metaphysics? Maybe there can be no clear evidence for metaphysical claims. It wouldn't be our problem, it is the theists making the claim.

Something to think about: atoms cannot be seen, and centuries ago, their presence was based merely off intuition without any evidence. "Seeing" is not always believing.

Science proven to work much better than speculation about gods and spirits. If there is a problem with the scientific explanation it will become more clear as we better understand the science around the issue. Consciousness could be one such subject. But it is hard to know whether consciousness can be explain by science or not until the brain has been better understood.

But Jesus cannot be speculated as He actually existed. Even old churches in the medieval age may have had relics from His cross. And JESUS IS GOD. Proof?

"11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves."
Jesus's God's words, John 14:11

I would consider it very strange if God hid evidence of his existence so deep within the universe. One would think that God would want uneducated farmers 3000 years ago to believe in Him, not just people after the year 2050 AD.

His evidence is in JESUS, God in the human form given as a theophany, an example to follow. As He had appeared to Moses - Moses saw God's back after He saw Him in the bush, and Jacob wrestled with God in the flesh and saw Him "face to face." Adam and Eve saw God when He walked in the Garden.

Well there probably can't be scientific evidence of a non-physical being.

But there is evidence of JESUS, who was God in the flesh as a theophany (appearence of God) as seen in the past.

But if we currently have no evidence of God (or no understanding of this evidence) then we have no reason to say there is a God. Maybe there could be evidence for God, and maybe there could be evidence for invisible immaterial unicorns in my room, but until there is evidence I don't think such unicorns exist.

JESUS IS GOD. There is evidence He was there.

Well he could probably communicate, but that doesn't mean we could know it was Him.

You know because all good comes from God, All good comes from Jesus. You know from the catacombs that people saw Him and what He did. Evidence from 30 A.D. on ward to 313 A.D. JESUS IS GOD, GOD'S THEOPHANY to give us a PERFECT, sinless example to follow.