Let's suppose God did....

[JGG]

I think it would benefit the conversation greatly if Eli could describe indetail the characteristics of the god heexpects us to believe in.

 

[Christian7PraiseJesus]

I think it would benefit the conversation greatly if Eli could describe indetail the characteristics of the god heexpects us to believe in.

Well Jesus is God shown to us as a theophany in the human flesh, as shown in my last post...

And there is numerous amounts of evidence Jesus existed (e.g., what is in my last post)...

I don't know if Eli believes Jesus is God or not (the Trinity, e.g.)

I actually think the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one person... That Jesus was walking in the Garden and was seen by Adam and Eve, that Jesus was shown to Moses, that Jesus was wrestling with Jacob in the flesh when he saw God "face to face"... That the Father and Jesus are ONE, that Jesus is the "I AM" in Exodus.

So... as seen by Jesus's own words, the scripture, and His acts. JESUS IS GOD. AND there is much evidence to prove Jesus existed (relics of the cross, roman catacombs from 30 A.D. to 313 A.D. depicting Jesus and what He did, historians seeing Christians, witnesses, ect... ect...) There is 100% proof Jesus came to earth and showed Himself to us, as a theophany, a PERFECT, sinless example to follow.

 

[Gottservant]

The OP is so good I am super impressed.

The burden of proof if something came from nothing is on the person who says it happened by accident, not the person who says it came from God, because if it came from God, God is the one who answerable if it was an accident, then the one who observes the accident is answerable.

 

[Freodin]

He's been doing it every moment of every day since the beginning of creation when He walked with Adam and Eve in the cool of the garden. Salvation has always been by faith through grace, and this is a gift of God, not of works, so that no one can boast.

He is speaking to you right now my dear.

Jesus says: "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone (that means you too Paradoxum ) hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to them and eat with them, and they with me."

Listen for His voice my dear, and open your heart to Him, He wants you more than you could ever know.

Didn't you make all these posts, telling us that we would not listen to God, even if he did all this fancy stuff like appearing to copulating couples, because of our sexual depravity and desire to keep our sinful lifestyle?

And now you turn around and say "just listen"?


Let's try something else...

So, God wants me more than I could ever know.

And if God is God and could create the universe and us, then He most certainly can communicate with us.

And if one only listens and sincerely seeks and asks, he will certainly be answered.

And even if you as a sincere and honest person might misunderstand him, God would remedy that by revealing Himself to such a one in a clearer way.

Yet I might ignore his communication, because of my unwillingness to submit to him.


Let's accept of all the above as correct.

Now I have the following proposal:

There was something in my life, a single occurance. The only event that ever happened to me that I have found no way to explain with rational causes. (Rather, I had tested the potential rational reasons and found them to not explain this event.)

Now I ask you - as a sincere and honest person, as someone who as already submitted to God, as someone who has a most intimate relationship with God and talks to him directly - to ask God for an explanation and relate it to me.

Ask him what happened to me, ask him to give to you the explanation for this event and then tell me what you have learned.
You will have to ask him for the precise circumstances of the event yourself - this is a necessary precaution I have to take, for the answer I am looking for might be rather general, and I have to be certain that you are answering the right question.

Now before you start using the common evasions for such trials, like "God does not do parlour tricks"... this isn't a trick. I am really interested in getting an answer to the problem that has bothering me for over thirty years, and I am asking you for help in a task that I myself cannot solve.

Also, I already made this request to another Christian, who promised me to pray for an answer, and who did not seem to have any problem with approaching God with this request. It failed.

In exchange, if you can solve this little problem of mine, I promise, upon my honour, that I will start going to church and look into this God whose power you have demonstrated to me.

 

[Christian7PraiseJesus]

Didn't you make all these posts, telling us that we would not listen to God, even if he did all this fancy stuff like appearing to copulating couples, because of our sexual depravity and desire to keep our sinful lifestyle?

And now you turn around and say "just listen"?


Let's try something else...

So, God wants me more than I could ever know.

And if God is God and could create the universe and us, then He most certainly can communicate with us.

And if one only listens and sincerely seeks and asks, he will certainly be answered.

And even if you as a sincere and honest person might misunderstand him, God would remedy that by revealing Himself to such a one in a clearer way.

Yet I might ignore his communication, because of my unwillingness to submit to him.


Let's accept of all the above as correct.

Now I have the following proposal:

There was something in my life, a single occurance. The only event that ever happened to me that I have found no way to explain with rational causes. (Rather, I had tested the potential rational reasons and found them to not explain this event.)

Now I ask you - as a sincere and honest person, as someone who as already submitted to God, as someone who has a most intimate relationship with God and talks to him directly - to ask God for an explanation and relate it to me.

Ask him what happened to me, ask him to give to you the explanation for this event and then tell me what you have learned.
You will have to ask him for the precise circumstances of the event yourself - this is a necessary precaution I have to take, for the answer I am looking for might be rather general, and I have to be certain that you are answering the right question.

Now before you start using the common evasions for such trials, like "God does not do parlour tricks"... this isn't a trick. I am really interested in getting an answer to the problem that has bothering me for over thirty years, and I am asking you for help in a task that I myself cannot solve.

Also, I already made this request to another Christian, who promised me to pray for an answer, and who did not seem to have any problem with approaching God with this request. It failed.

In exchange, if you can solve this little problem of mine, I promise, upon my honour, that I will start going to church and look into this God whose power you have demonstrated to me.

What was it, like a near death experience? Like you almost saw the light?

We are mere humans. Why don't you ask God, Jesus, directly? Go straight to the source? Many times there are answers in Jesus's words and examples as well as shown in scripture. Isaiah 30:19 says, “How gracious He will be when you cry for help! As soon as He hears, He will answer you.”

 

[Lord Emsworth]

Ok, well, you seem to agree with what I said here.

I will restate it briefly.

An entity that creates the universe out of nothing by logical necessity cannot be either material (composed of matter) or spaciotemporal (existing in space and time prior to creation).

Notice here, I am not referring to any scriptures, holy texts, or religious writings or teachings. These terms are scientific terms. These concepts are scientific concepts with logical reasoning undergirding them.

These things I have said, which you agree with, are self-evident.

Well, I didn't actually agree with anything. I said "Maybe". But I should add "Maybe not. And it is irrelevant at that".

When cosmologists and astronomers speak of the universe, this term is an all-encompassing term. It takes in all matter, all space, all energy, and even time itself. If a theist believes this or not is simply not even relevant. This is what the universe is by definition. This does not change and is not dependent upon what a theist thinks about it. A theist could think that the universe is a fluffy marshmallow, the fact remains that when the word universe is used in its traditional, cosmological context, it is referring to all that is natural including natural and physical laws, matter, time, space and energy.

Nah. I am not sure that is so true.

First off, you appear to be contradicting yourself, slightly at least. On one hand you say the universe is all encompassing term, while on the other hand it is not; it just encompasses certain things, but apparantly not others.

The next issue I have is with saying that the universe "takes in all matter, all space, all energy, and even time itself". Well, sometimes universe seems to mean just that, but at other times there is talk of parallel universes. Hmmm ...

Then there is sometimes talk of the multiverse, which is conceived of as a naturalist concept ... Hmmm ....


But I don't think that any of that is really your fault. You are just a hapless victim, who bravely, but vainly, tries to to bring all the pieces together. Sometimes, universe means everything, sometimes all time and space, sometimes a universe is just a time-space continuum, and sometimes a universe may just be a piece of the natural world. Etc ... But as I said, I am not blaming that on you.

Well, it seems to me here that you are going back on your previous statement. You seem to have agreed that if an entity brought the universe into existence literally out of nothing, then said entity could not be made of matter and that it could not be spaciotemporal. If you agree with that then we can move on. If you think that statement is false then you must maintain that matter could have brought itself into existence before it even existed! And anyway, let's grant, just for the sake of humorous argument, that matter could bring itself into existence before it existed, how would it do that? Matter does not have any causal properties, it cannot "create" anything!

Here too, I would have to point out that all that is fairly irrelevant.

Moving on.....



Well, now lets see....

I have never said that God was unnormal, unmundane, unnatural or un-what-have-you.

But would you ever agree to saying that God is natural or mundane. I just don't think so.

What I have said is that if an entity created the universe out of nothing, that it could not be made of matter and it could not be spaciotemporal. That is all I have said here.

*Nods*

What is missing is a really good reason for putting one thing into the natural bin, and other things into the supernatural bin. That is nothing, IMO, that you can actually do here.

Prior to the dense singularity called for and required in the Big Bang cosmological model of the universe a.k.a. the Standard Model.

(Yeah, I forget. At the time when only God existed and nothing else. )

If God created the universe out of nothing, He, by definition is supernatural or ultramundane. The words are synonyms.

I see. Now it's not just self-evident or a logical conclusion. Now they even are synonyms.

But, maybe it just doesn't mean anything much. Which is pretty much my point, the distinction between "supernatural" and "natural" is one that I find quite meaningless and utterly irrelevant. And now you have come up with ultramundane. Hmmm ...

 

[JGG]

The OP is so good I am super impressed.

The burden of proof if something came from nothing is on the person who says it happened by accident, not the person who says it came from God, because if it came from God, God is the one who answerable if it was an accident, then the one who observes the accident is answerable.

Who made such a claim?

 

[JGG]

Well Jesus is God shown to us as a theophany in the human flesh, as shown in my last post...

So you want to operationalize god as a glorified man?

And there is numerous amounts of evidence Jesus existed (e.g., what is in my last post)...

Jesus was such a popular name at the time there were likely a dozen rabbis with it. However that does not necessarily mean that one was divine. Extra-biblical sources only rell us a man existed, not a god.

I don't know if Eli believes Jesus is God or not (the Trinity, e.g.)

I actually think the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one person... That Jesus was walking in the Garden and was seen by Adam and Eve, that Jesus was shown to Moses, that Jesus was wrestling with Jacob in the flesh when he saw God "face to face"... That the Father and Jesus are ONE, that Jesus is the "I AM" in Exodus.

So... as seen by Jesus's own words, the scripture, and His acts. JESUS IS GOD. AND there is much evidence to prove Jesus existed (relics of the cross, roman catacombs from 30 A.D. to 313 A.D. depicting Jesus and what He did, historians seeing Christians, witnesses, ect... ect...) There is 100% proof Jesus came to earth and showed Himself to us, as a theophany, a PERFECT, sinless example to follow.

And equal evidence that spider-man exists!

 

[Freodin]

What was it, like a near death experience? Like you almost saw the light?

It was a singular occurance, an event that is still identifiable for those who about know it by the simple mention of "this special thing". I'm sorry if I cannot offer additional infos beforehand - I need that to have confirmation that someone who tries to answer this problem is indeed accessing a source outside of commonplace responses.

If you want to help out with my task, feel free to ask your God. I'm open to all who are interested.

We are mere humans. Why don't you ask God, Jesus, directly? Go straight to the source? Many times there are answers in Jesus's words and examples as well as shown in scripture. Isaiah 30:19 says, “How gracious He will be when you cry for help! As soon as He hears, He will answer you.”

It should be obvious why I don't "ask Jesus directly", if you had read this thread.
- I might not have the means to distinguish between a divine answer and my own imagination.
- I might ignore a divine answer.
- I might not be considered sincere and honest for God to answer me.
- last but not least: I might already have done so, and failed (for the above reasons or others)

But here I am surrounded with people who claim to have an intimate personal relationship with God, who claim to be sincere and honest and who - at least indirectly - claim to have a way to determine divine revelation.

So how gracious will he be when you cry out for help! As soon as he hears, he will answer you.

I did not get any answers. I openly admit that this might be my fault. It might be my disbelieve, my arrogance, my sinfulness... whatever.

But here YOU are, who believe that, if you ask, God will answer.

So I ask you, beseech you: do it for my sake! Ask God and tell me what answer you got!

 

[Eudaimonist]

This sort of challenge reminds me of a different, but related, challenge where a skeptic of UFO aliens that visit Earth is asked what would convince him that they are actually doing so.

After all, a skeptic may ask himself if he is dreaming or insane, if he is the victim of a hoax, etc.

My view is that he certainly could convince himself, but it would take a little time and careful observation. First, if one is insane or dreaming, one may as well assume that one is in a normal frame of mind -- after all, what could it hurt? If one is dreaming, one would wake up soon without any harm done, and if one is that insane, there's not much that one can do about that anyway.

If one feels sane, one may as well proceed to a scientific approach. If there is a Close Encounters of the Third Kind situation (a spaceship lands in front of a cadre of scientists), the odds of a hoax are very limited, and can be eliminated easily enough.

It gets trickier when an alleged god is involved, for how can one distinguish such a god from a deceptive or self-deluded powerful space alien?

But even that barrier could easily be crossed. All a god has to do is let you observe him creating a universe, along with an explanation of how it was done. Should be child's play for a god.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Elioenai26]

(Barring differences in how words are defined between writer and reader

Again, even if every single person on the planet believed, fervently and without reservation, there would still be no proof.

Or if all people were unable to deny that this (largely unknown) thing exists, or if one were to accuse those who point out the lack of tangibility of being mildly deluded, it would also not mean that there was proof.

Ok.

What would God have to do convince you He existed?

 

[Elioenai26]

Didn't you make all these posts, telling us that we would not listen to God, even if he did all this fancy stuff like appearing to copulating couples, because of our sexual depravity and desire to keep our sinful lifestyle?

And now you turn around and say "just listen"?


Let's try something else...

So, God wants me more than I could ever know.

And if God is God and could create the universe and us, then He most certainly can communicate with us.

And if one only listens and sincerely seeks and asks, he will certainly be answered.

And even if you as a sincere and honest person might misunderstand him, God would remedy that by revealing Himself to such a one in a clearer way.

Yet I might ignore his communication, because of my unwillingness to submit to him.


Let's accept of all the above as correct.

Now I have the following proposal:

There was something in my life, a single occurance. The only event that ever happened to me that I have found no way to explain with rational causes. (Rather, I had tested the potential rational reasons and found them to not explain this event.)

Now I ask you - as a sincere and honest person, as someone who as already submitted to God, as someone who has a most intimate relationship with God and talks to him directly - to ask God for an explanation and relate it to me.

Ask him what happened to me, ask him to give to you the explanation for this event and then tell me what you have learned.
You will have to ask him for the precise circumstances of the event yourself - this is a necessary precaution I have to take, for the answer I am looking for might be rather general, and I have to be certain that you are answering the right question.

Now before you start using the common evasions for such trials, like "God does not do parlour tricks"... this isn't a trick. I am really interested in getting an answer to the problem that has bothering me for over thirty years, and I am asking you for help in a task that I myself cannot solve.

Also, I already made this request to another Christian, who promised me to pray for an answer, and who did not seem to have any problem with approaching God with this request. It failed.

In exchange, if you can solve this little problem of mine, I promise, upon my honour, that I will start going to church and look into this God whose power you have demonstrated to me.

I will pray to the Father. This I can do. And gladly.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

Let's suppose for a moment that God did do what many atheists here have said He has not done, and reveal Himself to mankind in a way that is undeniable.

How would you know it was God revealing Himself and not just some natural event with a natural explanation?

Let's suppose He caused a message to appear in the clouds in the sky over Israel. How would you know it was really God doing it and not just a chance, random arrangement of clouds to look like words?

Or let's suppose God appeared to you, an atheist, personally. How would you know it was really God and that you were not just hallucinating?

Let's suppose He appeared to hundreds of people at one time and did miracles. How would you know that it was not just some magician doing magic tricks with the help of people who were working secretly with the magician?

Let's suppose a booming voice from the sky cried: "I am God and Jesus Christ is my beloved Son, listen to Him!" How would you know it was not just you imagining the voice inside your head?

I keep hearing over and over again: "If God is real, then He can make His presence known." Well heck, I agree!

But if He did, how would you distinguish the supernatural from the natural?

What marks or qualities would such a revelation possess? Would you even be able to recognize it?

If Yahweh exists, he knows exactly what would convince me, even if I don't.

 

[KCfromNC]

Belief in the existence of God is unlike belief in mathematical axiomatic expressions, or laws of nature which are subject to scientific inquiry and verification and which make no claims upon us as individuals.

Glad you agree that there's no evidence for god in the way the word is normally used.

But if one assents to the proposition:

"God exists"...

then this changes everything (or at least should).

That's nice. Doesn't change the fact that, as you admit above, the assertion isn't backed by evidence.

Assenting to the proposition: "God exists", also means that you know God is worthy of worship and honor.

This totally depends on which brand of god you assert exists. The vengeful, voyeuristic, petty Christian god is just one of a multitude of options (even within Christianity itself).

Instead of swallowing it, they deny it exists.

But you just said in your first paragraph that there's no reason (in the traditional sense) to accept it. You can't call it a denial when there's no reason to accept it in the first place.

 

[jayem]

Ok.

What would God have to do convince you He existed?

As others have said, if God truly exists, he would know how to convince me. I can only speak for myself. I know my skepticism regarding anything supernatural is quite deeply ingrained. So simply witnessing this or that supposedly miraculous event probably wouldn't be enough. Something would have to change in my brain, in order for me to believe in a supernatural diety. But an omnipotent god could certainly do this, if that was his will.

How and why people form beliefs can vary tremendously. And you should know that.

 

[Elioenai26]

This sort of challenge reminds me of a different, but related, challenge where a skeptic of UFO aliens that visit Earth is asked what would convince him that they are actually doing so.

After all, a skeptic may ask himself if he is dreaming or insane, if he is the victim of a hoax, etc.

My view is that he certainly could convince himself, but it would take a little time and careful observation. First, if one is insane or dreaming, one may as well assume that one is in a normal frame of mind -- after all, what could it hurt? If one is dreaming, one would wake up soon without any harm done, and if one is that insane, there's not much that one can do about that anyway.

If one feels sane, one may as well proceed to a scientific approach. If there is a Close Encounters of the Third Kind situation (a spaceship lands in front of a cadre of scientists), the odds of a hoax are very limited, and can be eliminated easily enough.

It gets trickier when an alleged god is involved, for how can one distinguish such a god from a deceptive or self-deluded powerful space alien?

But even that barrier could easily be crossed. All a god has to do is let you observe him creating a universe, along with an explanation of how it was done. Should be child's play for a god.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Your post reinforces my point. People would rather believe in space aliens as opposed to God. The explanation for something can be anything as long as its not God.

Your post and the majority of the others also prove my point which was lost on those who thought they offered an answer to my OP.

My point is that there is no proof or evidence that God could offer to anyone that could not be explained away if that person was unwilling to see it.

Another point I want to make is that even if scientists were convinced Jesus Christ was God incarnate, that does not necessarily mean they would worship and honor Him as Lord.

Worship and adoration are actions that can only be done freely without compulsion.

 

[JGG]

Your post reinforces my point. People would rather believe in space aliens as opposed to God. The explanation for something can be anything as long as its not God.

To be fair, space aliens seem somewhat more likely than God.

Your post and the majority of the others also prove my point which was lost on those who thought they offered an answer to my OP.

My point is that there is no proof or evidence that God could offer to anyone that could not be explained away if that person was unwilling to see it.

You're saying "believe and you will see"?

You see the problem with identifying a "supernatural entity" through natural evidence, right?

 

[Dave Ellis]

*Blind Post*

If God is all powerful and all knowing, he'd have the power to make his presence felt by everyone, and he'd know how to provide undeniable proof it's him.

What method would he use? I have no idea, it really doesn't matter as long as he gets the message across.

 

[Elioenai26]

To be fair, space aliens seem somewhat more likely than God.



You're saying "believe and you will see"?

You see the problem with identifying a "supernatural entity" through natural evidence, right?

I don't see a problem with it at all because I do not presume that everything must have a natural explanation. I don't question beg for naturalism.

 

[Elioenai26]

*Blind Post*

If God is all powerful and all knowing, he'd have the power to make his presence felt by everyone, and he'd know how to provide undeniable proof it's him.

What method would he use? I have no idea, it really doesn't matter as long as he gets the message across.

God can do anything logically possible. It is not logically possible for God to force someone to believe, trust, and love Him.

That is the same as saying that God cannot make a round square or a married bachelor. I can think of millions of things God cannot do.