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Let us talk masturbation.

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Fallior

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Where is that in scripture? Galatians 2 contrasts fruits of the flesh vs fruits of the spirit, and I've yet to find a mention of masturbation. By your logic any kind of sexual act, including marital sex, would be a "passion of the flesh". Are we to be celibate?


I've been involved in sexual immorality. And I mean real sexual immorality. Masturbation is not even in the same proximity. Again, where in scripture is masturbation regarded as sexually immoral?


According to...you? Where do you find this in the bible? Fornication is prohibited, adultery is prohibited, masturbation is...well...not. We are not to add our own rules to scripture.

It doesn't even say you have to be married to commit adultery with lust. If you have any sexual feelings and act on them about a woman that you aren't married to, even if you are single, according to that bible verse, it's still lust and therefore considered adultery.


I've already explained that on the last page.

""But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart." -Matthew 5:28

So if you are looking at or even thinking about a person while doing it, then according to the bible, you are committing adultery, which is a big sin. And I've never heard of somebody masterbating without lusting, you only get turned on when you are sexually attracted to something. And if you act on it, that's lusting.[FONT=Corbel, Verdana, sans-serif]"[/FONT]
 
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Tellastory

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Where is that in scripture? Galatians 2 contrasts fruits of the flesh vs fruits of the spirit, and I've yet to find a mention of masturbation. By your logic any kind of sexual act, including marital sex, would be a "passion of the flesh". Are we to be celibate?

The term uncleanness is the work of the flesh that mankind calls today as masturbation, but sinners do not refer to uncleanness as the same thing.

I've been involved in sexual immorality. And I mean real sexual immorality. Masturbation is not even in the same proximity. Again, where in scripture is masturbation regarded as sexually immoral?

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,...

Between fornication; sex with another, and lasciviousness which is sexual excessiveness, the act of masturbation cannot escape inbetween that if one really believes uncleanness is not the same thing?

According to...you? Where do you find this in the bible? Fornication is prohibited, adultery is prohibited, masturbation is...well...not. We are not to add our own rules to scripture.

Galatians 5:24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Masturbation does not always have to deal with lust either. Affections can refer to the body "needs" as well.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Note "neither" above how it adds to not obeying sin in the lust thereof as deferring to other ways sin can have dominion over the body without lust.

Jude 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts...... 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

The use of the phrase hating the garment spotted by the flesh has to involve an emission for walking after their own ungodly lust.

The consequence for not looking to Jesus for help in bringing our body into submission is testified by Paul.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

So the loss of the reward of crowns is not the only consequence there is. Being left behind at the pre tribulational rapture to face the fire coming on the earth as well as the coming great tribulation ... is.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Sinful society may have changed the definition of uncleanness to mask masturbation today, but they cannot hide the act of masturbation as it is a similar act of uncleanness in the Bible.

Leviticus 15:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When any man hath a running issue out of his flesh, because of his issue he is unclean. 3 And this shall be his uncleanness in his issue: whether his flesh run with his issue, or his flesh be stopped from his issue, it is his uncleanness.

2 Corinthians 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Seeing two sexual sins listed above, how can masturbation not be uncleanness?

Believers need to know that there is hope in Jesus Christ to deliver us from the bondage to sin and to death. Many do not see how they can avoid fornication or change "who they are" as a "homosexual", but that is why Jesus came into the world to save sinners from their sins.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.....8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Romans 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying. 14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

1 John 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

So there is hope in the Lord Jesus Christ for deliverance from masturbation.
 
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ALoveDivine

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It doesn't even say you have to be married to commit adultery with lust.
Except the very meaning of adultery implies unfaithfulness to one's spouse. Notice Jesus used the word "adultery", and that was the subject of the discourse. This is so painfully obvious I can hardly believe so many Christians miss it. Stop taking things out of context. The only way to make this verse reinforce your perspective is to replace the word "adultery" with "sex", and God never said "thou shalt not commit sex".

Tellastory, its funny, out of all those verses you posted not one of them prohibits, or even mentions, masturbation. You are reading your views into the text, the bible nowhere mentions masturbation nor prohibits it. And are you seriously quoting Levitical ceremonial laws right now??

The term uncleanness is the work of the flesh that mankind calls today as masturbation
According to...you? Where on earth do you get that idea? It's certainly not in scripture.

how can masturbation not be uncleanness?
Because the bible nowhere claims that it is. That is your presupposition.
 
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Tellastory

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Tellastory, its funny, out of all those verses you posted not one of them prohibits, or even mentions, masturbation. You are reading your views into the text, the bible nowhere mentions masturbation nor prohibits it. And are you seriously quoting Levitical ceremonial laws right now??

According to...you? Where on earth do you get that idea? It's certainly not in scripture.

Because the bible nowhere claims that it is. That is your presupposition.

That is the usual reply for those refusing to define what uncleanness is, seeing how it is smack in the middle of sexual sins as listed in the Bible.

Sinful society may have changed the definition of uncleanness to mask masturbation today, but they cannot hide the act of masturbation as it is the very act of uncleanness as described in the Bible.

Leviticus 15:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When any man hath a running issue out of his flesh, because of his issue he is unclean. 3 And this shall be his uncleanness in his issue: whether his flesh run with his issue, or his flesh be stopped from his issue, it is his uncleanness.

Now explain why what is being described in those verses does not apply to what masturbation does.

Then explain what uncleanness is that believers are to abstain from when listed as a sexual sin in the NT.

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,...

Galatians 5:24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

2 Corinthians 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

So you cannot call it only a ceremonial issue of the OT when believers are being warned of it in the NT.

Feel free to identify what the work of the flesh is that is called uncleanness. If you cannot, then ask Jesus because you are in a war.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

With His help, prove that uncleanness is not masturbation as listed among the sexual sins or risk finding out the hard way that ignorance is not bliss.

More than likely, He will help you see masturbation as the sexual sin of uncleanness or you will find out later the hard way.
 
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Fallior

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Except the very meaning of adultery implies unfaithfulness to one's spouse. Notice Jesus used the word "adultery", and that was the subject of the discourse. This is so painfully obvious I can hardly believe so many Christians miss it. Stop taking things out of context. The only way to make this verse reinforce your perspective is to replace the word "adultery" with "sex", and God never said "thou shalt not commit sex".

Tellastory, its funny, out of all those verses you posted not one of them prohibits, or even mentions, masturbation. You are reading your views into the text, the bible nowhere mentions masturbation nor prohibits it. And are you seriously quoting Levitical ceremonial laws right now??


According to...you? Where on earth do you get that idea? It's certainly not in scripture.


Because the bible nowhere claims that it is. That is your presupposition.

It says it's LIKE adultery, not it is. He's saying that even if you are single, the sin is just as bad as committing adultery. By the way, you need to understand how the old bible was written. Words were different back then. If we had a completely new translation, it would translate to masturbation & non-marital sex for desires of the flesh.
 
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ReesePiece23

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He's saying that even if you are single, the sin is just as bad as committing adultery.

If a person masturbates, no one knows, nor cares.

If a wife/husband catches their spouse in the act with another person, then KNOW - that without a shadow of a doubt, the trauma caused WILL have a significantly profound impact on that persons life forever.

Deeply embedded trust issues, heartbreak, depression, emotional scaring, loneliness, confusion, lack of self worth, the possibility of suicidal thoughts, and rage are just a few of the possible knock on effects that'll more than likely require in-depth counselling at some point down the road.

I've seen what true adultery can do to people - it's very real, and the affects are nothing short of devastating. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy...

Not that I have an enemy.
 
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ALoveDivine

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When any man hath a running issue out of his flesh, because of his issue he is unclean.
Haha, wow. Get your mind outta the gutter bro. Blood, puss, etc. Lots of things would meet this qualification. And yes this is a ceremonial law, even a cursory study of Leviticus makes it clear that these are ceremonial rites. No Christian would make the claim that we are to abide by Levitical purification rites.

Then explain what uncleanness is that believers are to abstain from when listed as a sexual sin in the NT.
Galatians doesn't even specify this as a sexual sin, just a fruit of the flesh. We are called to be holy, set apart. This likely just means something like to be tainted by the world, to be worldly, etc. Elsewhere in the NT Peter refers to the ways of this world as filth and pollution, so that analysis has some good exegetical strength. There is absolutely no evidence that uncleanness means touching yourself, I mean come on now brother, you know how ridiculous you sound with these references?

It says it's LIKE adultery
Actually no, he said it IS adultery in the heart. Key word again, adultery. Which means? Sleeping with someone other than your spouse, which, naturally, presupposes you have a spouse.

"You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
- Matthew 5:27-28

Sorry brother but you are reading more into the text than is actually there. Adding rules to the bible is just as bad as removing the ones that are actually there. This is a clear warning to married people that to so much as look at another man or woman with lust is to betray your spouse and be guilty of adultery. How is this point so easily missed??

it would translate to masturbation & non-marital sex for desires of the flesh.
Non-marital sex is called fornication, and that is prohibited in scripture, and for good reason. I had to learn that the hard way. Masturbation though is just a sexual release, with no one harmed. Fornication and adultery bring harm. According to this "desires of the flesh" logic (or lack thereof) that some seem so keen on, ANY kind of sex would be a "desire of the flesh". How is sex itself not a "desire of the flesh"? Some Christians are so intensely and irrationally sex-negative its astounding.

Sex is a great thing and God created us to have sexual desires, and from an adolescent age at that. Fornication and adultery are sins because they destroy the family unit, there is nothing wrong with sex, or sexual release, in and of themselves.

You'd think if masturbation was such a sin it would be explicitly mentioned somewhere in scripture, but it is not. Fornication and adultery, which are sins, are mentioned over and over again.

Now I'm not saying that masturbation isn't wrong for some of you, but its a huge stretch to then make the claim that it's universally wrong. God has called some of us to abstain from alcohol completely, for others its just fine to have a beer or two. Just don't ever say its a sin for all Christians unless you've got plenty of scripture to back that up.
 
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Fallior

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You'd think if masturbation was such a sin it would be explicitly mentioned somewhere in scripture, but it is not. Fornication and adultery, which are sins, are mentioned over and over again.

Now I'm not saying that masturbation isn't wrong for some of you, but its a huge stretch to then make the claim that it's universally wrong. God has called some of us to abstain from alcohol completely, for others its just fine to have a beer or two. Just don't ever say its a sin for all Christians unless you've got plenty of scripture to back that up.

Again, you've missed this part "But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart." -Matthew 5:28
I've never heard of anyone masterbaiting without having lustful thoughts. How exactly do you masterbiat and get turned on if you aren't thinking about something sexual (lusting)?
 
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ALoveDivine

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How many times must I explain the context of the passage, ADULTERY. It also seems that you deliberately failed to quote verse 27, which clearly sets before us the context as Jesus elaborating on the OT commandment about not committing adultery which is, as I've demonstrated and is plainly obvious by the meaning of the word, to sleep with someone other than your spouse, in which statement rests the assumption that either you or the other person in question have a spouse.

You simply ignored my comments on this subject and reverted to your presuppositions regarding the meaning of the verse in question. I will not argue from your fallacious presuppositions.
 
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Tellastory

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If a person masturbates, no one knows, nor cares.

God knows and God cares. Don't you know that Jesus Christ is in you and is with you always?

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Romans 12:1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

And believers should care because they are running the risk of being left behind to face the coming great tribulation.

2 Corinthians 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
 
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ALoveDivine

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And believers should care because they are running the risk of being left behind to face the coming great tribulation.
So you are not masturbating. Ok, great. How are you doing on selling all you have and giving to the poor?

Will Christians get left behind for failure to do that? Or only for touching themselves?
 
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OGM

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Once puberty hits...the only practical "cures" for sexual thought are; pharmaceuticals and death. Often times even removal of reproduction organs (cancer for instance) does not completely cease sexual thoughts. I don't know if praying for asexuality would even work since it is within the design of a human.

The reason I mention this is the thread seems to be going in the direction that sexual thought and sexual attraction is lustful thought...at least in a sexual, unless it happens during dreaming. In which case one is given a free get-out-of-jail-pass.
 
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ALoveDivine

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The reason I mention this is the thread seems to be going in the direction that sexual thought and sexual attraction is lustful thought..
That's because they can't find a single verse prohibiting masturbation, so they have to work their pet prohibition in there somehow, such as taking a verse concerning adultery way out of context. I agree with you, its self-evidently absurd.
 
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Fallior

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How many times must I explain the context of the passage, ADULTERY. It also seems that you deliberately failed to quote verse 27, which clearly sets before us the context as Jesus elaborating on the OT commandment about not committing adultery which is, as I've demonstrated and is plainly obvious by the meaning of the word, to sleep with someone other than your spouse, in which statement rests the assumption that either you or the other person in question have a spouse.

You simply ignored my comments on this subject and reverted to your presuppositions regarding the meaning of the verse in question. I will not argue from your fallacious presuppositions.


"But I say to you that EVERYONE who looks at a woman with LUSTFUL INTENT has already committed adultery with her in his heart." -Matthew 5:28

It doesn't say just married people, it says every single person that thinks sexually about a woman commits adultery even if they are single. That means masturbating is included in that as you are thinking about a woman you aren't married to sexually.
 
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ALoveDivine

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I guess we will have to agree to disagree. You are plainly ignoring the context of the verse, on top of ignoring the context of the entire sermon on the mount, but I'm obviously not going to change your mind. And you repeating the same talking point isn't going to change mine.
 
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OGM

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Fallior said:
...it says every single person that thinks sexually about a woman commits adultery even if they are single.
If that were the case, a man being attracted to a woman or vice-versa would be a sin. Which means dating and courtship would be a sin too. Basically the only way NOT to sexual sin in such a scenario would be to exist asexually. With no desire for marriage and no attraction to anyone. If all of society felt that way no more people would be born.
 
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Sir Robbins

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"But I say to you that EVERYONE who looks at a woman with LUSTFUL INTENT has already committed adultery with her in his heart." -Matthew 5:28

It doesn't say just married people, it says every single person that thinks sexually about a woman commits adultery even if they are single. That means masturbating is included in that as you are thinking about a woman you aren't married to sexually.

you are aware that many DON'T think about women when doing it, right? Some of us have physical drives but no attraction to anyone. Do you understand that?
 
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Sir Robbins

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And I've never heard of somebody masterbating without lusting, you only get turned on when you are sexually attracted to something. And if you act on it, that's lusting.[FONT=Corbel, Verdana, sans-serif]
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False. :preach: Arousals can occur in many instances when no thoughts are present at all. Sleeping on my stomach can cause them. I've had them after exercising. Women can get aroused from exercising. The mind is not the only trigger. I have no interest in sex with anyone.... I still have physical urges and drive.
 
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Fallior

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False. :preach: Arousals can occur in many instances when no thoughts are present at all. Sleeping on my stomach can cause them. I've had them after exercising. Women can get aroused from exercising. The mind is not the only trigger. I have no interest in sex with anyone.... I still have physical urges and drive.
Note that I said masturbating, not having an erection.
 
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Sir Robbins

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Note that I said masturbating, not having an erection.

erections often lead to masturbating and that doesn't have to be motivated by anything other than a feeling to release...
 
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