Legislating morality

[Leanna]

Can anybody see what I am trying to say?

People think the sex industry is bad because it causes harm, but the only examples of harm they give are directly related to the fact people think it is bad.

Circular reasoning, anyone?

BlondieLashes addressed that in her last post. No, I do not believe that it is people stigma that causes the pain, it is the actions themselves.

 

[BlondieLashes]

Well kiddos- it's been real and it's been fun but I must log off for a while now. I will try to check back in later to see what you have been up to!

Play nice now!

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

Think about your usage of the term "hooker". You use a derogatory term to describe prostitutes, as does most of society, and then wonder why they have no self respect.

Why is that derogatory... is it to you? It is a nostalgic throw back to the 19th century heroines who served our fighting men in the Civil War.

Why do the think the origin of a word has anything to do with how it is used now?

queer
adj. queer·er, queer·est

1. Deviating from the expected or normal; strange: a queer situation.
2. Odd or unconventional, as in behavior; eccentric. See Synonyms at strange.
3. Of a questionable nature or character; suspicious.
4. Slang. Fake; counterfeit.
5. Feeling slightly ill; queasy.
6. Offensive Slang. Homosexual.
7. Usage Problem. Of or relating to lesbians, gay men, bisexuals, or transgendered people.

By your logic, it is okay to call someone by this label. What matters is how the word is used now.

You argue everything and anything for the sake of reading your own words... you are heartless and have no understanding.

Whether true or not, what difference does it make? Has no effect on what I say. Rebut my statements on their own, rather than what you think my attitude is. If what I say is wrong, explain why.

 

[Leanna]

Why do the think the origin of a word has anything to do with how it is used now?

I agree that what matters is what it means now. However, are you sure that hooker is a derogatory word for those in the industry? I am not so sure it is..... I'm thinking its about as insulting as calling a cashier a "checker" ....

 

[KCDAD]

Nevermind

 

[KCDAD]

Yes I think queer is a perfectly good word, as is gay or ****** ( - a bundle of sticks and branches bound together sheaf, bundle - a package of several things tied together for carrying or storing) or fairy if they are used properly and not used to denograte someone. (Before you get too wacked out, I am a card carrying member of the Gay Liberation Movement since 1974)
No, I disagree with you about "how the word is used now". What matters is the intent of the communicator not the hyper-sensitivity or ignorance of the hearer. Communication is two way... the listener and the speaker both need to redefine language between themselves as they use it.
I do not get too offended by people calling me ANGLO, although I do not identify myself with The English... either as a people or tradition. I am German and do not ever get called a nazi, so that doesn't bother me... I kinda wish someone would call me a visigoth or barbarian or something like that though.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

Interesting question! I must admit that while in the industry I didn't percieve that society thought that there was anything wrong with what I was doing! Quite the opposite to be honest! I found that in my social life the people I hung out with seemed to think I was "cool" (for lack of a better word) for being in porn or stripping, etc.

What about a particular part of society, i.e. your family? Was there any stress because of them? Did they know? What would have happened if they found out? Or did they not care either?

The Bible wasn't affecting me much back then- or anyone that read it for that matter!

I never said anything about the bible affecting you directly, just that other people's views about the profession because of it might be a factor.

What affected me was the actual emotional, physical and spiritual damage that it did to me on a personal level.

This is vague. What were the problems exactly? Were any of them related to guilt? Would guilt be there if everybody in society felt that the sex industry was okay?

If not guilt-related, what were the problems?

I started using drugs and drinking just to get through and to numb my emotions.

That's irrelevant. Lots of people do drugs and drink to numb emotions. We're trying to get to the underlying reasons, to see if they are the fault of the sex industry.

It just is not natural to expect a woman to give herself away sexually to numerous people on a regular basis and not have any emotional, spiritual and physical issues as a result.

Just giving herself away sexually, or doing it for hire? There are women who have a great deal of sex with many men for free (the term "nymphomaniac" had to come from somewhere), but no one is trying make that illegal.

Are nymphomaniacs unnatural? Or just atypical?

Also, as far as sex load, what about a part time prostitute? Not every one does it full time. I knew a girl who was a college student and just did it a couple of times a week.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

I think BlondieLashes has been trying to tell you the harm, first person. Certainly her reasoning is not circular.

But the reasons given were vague. She just said "emotional harm". Until she explains how the particular problems were directly related to the sex industry and had nothing to do with guilt, I don't consider that evidence.

Even though I kept harping about what other people thought, what you think about yourself when working in the sex industry is a factor too.

Society thinks it is wrong, so you may have guilt at some level. If society didn't think it was wrong, you would not think it was wrong, you could never have guilt, and that would not be a factor.

I'm trying to get to the nature of the emotional harm.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

faster_jackrabbit- I think the sex industry is bad becasue it casued harm to myself and many others that I know personally. The examples I have given (spiritual, emotional and physical damage to oneself) have nothing to do with people thinking it is bad!

But did they have anything to do with you thinking it was bad? Even deep down? You never once had guilt about it? Or about what anybody would think if they knew you were doing it? Or, in the case of prostitution, about the danger of getting caught doing it?

Exactly what were the nature of the problems?

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

I agree that what matters is what it means now. However, are you sure that hooker is a derogatory word for those in the industry? I am not so sure it is..... I'm thinking its about as insulting as calling a cashier a "checker" ....

Okay. I guess I respect them more than they respect themselves. I typically don't use that word. I say call girl or escort or whatever.

 

[BlondieLashes]

Faster_jackrabbit- You are wondering if my family knew about and approved or disapproved of my involvement in the sex industry and if that affected me…My family did not know. I had not had contact with my family for a few years before becoming involved in the industry. I did not have contact with them while in the industry. Whether or not they would have approved is beyond me. Hard to say as my dad is really into porn and seeing prostitutes- he may have been proud- who knows?!

You wonder what the damage was EXACTLY that was caused by the sex industry. The following is an excerpt from Sex Industry Survivors Anonymous. I will bold the ones that have affected me directly as I have not been affected by all the items listed:


“There are a constellation of symptoms associated with participation in this world.
· Sexual dysfunction or avoidance of sex
· Feeling like you’ve turned a trick without getting paid
· Disassociation (feeling split off from your feelings)
· Sexual overdrive and promiscuity
· Drug and or alcoholism
Other things don’t go away simply because we stop involving ourselves with the industry. Some of these symptoms or problem areas might include:
· Depression
· Nightmares
· Anxiety attacks
· Sleep disorders
· Flashbacks
· Phobias; compulsions
· Post-traumatic stress disorder.”

 

[BlondieLashes]

faster_jackrabbit- You also asked if any of the problems I experienced resulted from guilt. I honestly don't think they did as I didn't think I was doing anything wrong! Maybe I was so split off from my emotions that I didn't know if I was feeling guilty or not, but it never really crossed my mind to my best recollection.

 

[BlondieLashes]

faster_jackrabbit- You also asked about being a part-time prostitute and if that would be better. I was part time when I was escorting as I was putting myself through college as well. It still affected me negatively! Part time or full time it gets to you!

As far as nymphos go- I have no idea! I have never met or known a nympho so I wouldn't know if they are emotionally healthy or not!

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

Blondie,

Let's try another tack. Imagine a world where absolutely no one thought there was anything wrong with porn or prostitution. Where sex workers were considered to be no different from anyone else. Where going to the studio of a prostitute was absolutely no different from going to a theraputic masseuse, and the sex worker was treated with the same respect by the client as a masseuse.

Would everything that happened to you and your associates have happened in exactly the same way? Would all of the problems still been there? Or just some of them?

 

[BlondieLashes]

Hmmm…. Would the problems still be there??? I think yes. For me personally pretending to like guy after guy that I saw in the industry was impossible without dissociation and eventually chemicals. A woman needs to love a man to be intimate with him without any ramifications that result in problems.

As far as whether or not it would affect how the men treated the women if it was all legal and accepted, I don’t think it would make a difference. There are many men out there that get off on harming a woman or treating her in a less-than-human way and they can’t find women in “real life” to put up with them so they hire a sex worker. How would that change if it was legal and accepted? I truly believe that all of the problems would still be there.

If the way that men treat sex industry workers is normal and good- why can’t they find women to go along with what they want to do without paying them to do it?! If the way women are treated in the sex industry is not normal and good then the problems (listed in previous post) will still be there!

It is the depravity of the soul (both male and female) that make this industry so damaging- not laws and lack of social acceptance.

 

[KCDAD]

Blondie,

Let's try another tack. Imagine a world where absolutely no one thought there was anything wrong with porn or prostitution. Where sex workers were considered to be no different from anyone else.

If the world were as you describe, there would be no need for pornography or the sex industry. It would be inconceivable for those to exist, for we would have healthy attitudes about ourselves, others and sexuality.

 

[Brimshack]

Blondie,

Let's try another tack. Imagine a world where absolutely no one thought there was anything wrong with porn or prostitution. Where sex workers were considered to be no different from anyone else. Where going to the studio of a prostitute was absolutely no different from going to a theraputic masseuse, and the sex worker was treated with the same respect by the client as a masseuse.

Would everything that happened to you and your associates have happened in exactly the same way? Would all of the problems still been there? Or just some of them?

In such a world I am not sure that there would be much of a market for sex work. My impression is that the wrongness of it all is central to the marketing of sex. Take away that wrongness, and you have nothing to sell. ...pornography and prostitution are not culturally universal.

So, on the one hand, I think this means that efforts to control the sex industry on any level (not just legally but literally even with just moral condemnation) actually end up feeding the industry. And those who oppose pornography are in fact helping to create the cultural conditions in which it thrives. On the other hand, it means visions of a world in which sex workers are treated well is unrealistic. Deviant identities are unfair, but they are social realities.

 

[suzybeezy]

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[faster_jackrabbit]

Hmmm…. Would the problems still be there??? I think yes. For me personally pretending to like guy after guy that I saw in the industry was impossible without dissociation and eventually chemicals. A woman needs to love a man to be intimate with him without any ramifications that result in problems.

Are you saying that all of the guys you saw were so universally awful that you had to pretend you could stand to even be near them? Wow. I never expected the girl to behave as if she adored me. Just being pleasant would have been sufficient. I doubt any of the guys were under the illusion you actually cared about them. As least I hope they weren't that gullible. Maybe you were trying too hard.

As far as whether or not it would affect how the men treated the women if it was all legal and accepted, I don’t think it would make a difference. There are many men out there that get off on harming a woman

I have heard about that stuff, but how widespread is it, really? If women were being hurt that much and that regularly wouldn't the call girl industry dry up on its own? And the girls at fixed locations have protection via bouncers and such.

If the way that men treat sex industry workers is normal and good- why can’t they find women to go along with what they want to do without paying them to do it?!

What about the cases of those those who rush into marriage without premarital sex, and therefore don't know what the partner is willing to do? The very thing christianity preaches.

As a matter of fact there are women willing to a lot of things that you apparently consider distasteful. I'm not sure why all those guys couldn't find them.

My only reason for a call girl is because of their relatively superior good looks and body, not because they will do things I can't get elsewhere. It's just a change of pace kind of thing.

As far as I'm concerned, any consentual act between adults is fair game. Any restriction is judgemental.

Women who don't want to do these things should get out of the business the first time someone asks them to do so. It would be better for all of us if all call girls actually wanted to be there. If you say it is impossible for a woman to be completely happy as a call girl, then the industry would disappear on its own.

It is the depravity of the soul (both male and female) that make this industry so damaging- not laws and lack of social acceptance.

That's a moral judgement, not a statement of fact.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

In such a world I am not sure that there would be much of a market for sex work. My impression is that the wrongness of it all is central to the marketing of sex. Take away that wrongness, and you have nothing to sell. ...pornography and prostitution are not culturally universal.

So, on the one hand, I think this means that efforts to control the sex industry on any level (not just legally but literally even with just moral condemnation) actually end up feeding the industry. And those who oppose pornography are in fact helping to create the cultural conditions in which it thrives. On the other hand, it means visions of a world in which sex workers are treated well is unrealistic. Deviant identities are unfair, but they are social realities.

I think that is a generalization. I can assure you the "illicit" nature of porn and the rest of the sex industry means absolutely nothing to me. I would like nothing better than for all the hassles, including laws against it, to simply go away.

I do think that there is an element of "danger" that some married men may have when going to a call girl, especially since it is illegal. This would be similar to the danger of having an affair.

I could care less about all that.