Legislating morality

[BlondieLashes]

Hi again faster_jackrabbit- This may get cut short as I am getting ready to leave for the weekend- but here goes-

First of all please keep in mind we are treading on thin ice as to what can and cannot be discussed in this Forum. Please see post from Suzybeezy above.

As far as pretending to like the guys that’s all I meant- just being pleasant! Not adoring or fawning over them or anything like that. Just being pleasant. It’s a job when you are faced with numerous men wanting your sexual attention on a regular basis!

I think you and I probably have different definitions as to what harming a sex industry worker may be. I quite honestly am up against the clock as far as time goes so I cannot go into all of them right now- and I will be away for the weekend. You may have to just trust me on this one!

I was never asked to “get out of the business”. I choose to. I know you think that the sex industry would disappear if there weren’t a bunch of totally happy sex workers out there- but I must tell you that many stay even though they are unhappy because of financial reasons and lack of other options.

Well- the time has come where I must leave this thread for the weekend. Keep the Forum rules in mind and be nice to one another okay!

Have a good weekend!

 

[Brimshack]

I think that is a generalization. I can assure you the "illicit" nature of porn and the rest of the sex industry means absolutely nothing to me. I would like nothing better than for all the hassles, including laws against it, to simply go away.

I do think that there is an element of "danger" that some married men may have when going to a call girl, especially since it is illegal. This would be similar to the danger of having an affair.

I could care less about all that.

But laws are only one form of social control. Were sex more readily vailable, why would you pay for it? Were nudity more common, why would you pay to see a naked body? Whether or not you would be happier without the proscriptions isn't the issue. Whether or not there would be a commodity to sell is.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

Hi again faster_jackrabbit- This may get cut short as I am getting ready to leave for the weekend

That's okay. "The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient". (Not that I am saying you are anything like an ox.)

I have to go to see my mom sun thru tues anyway. But I can log on from there.

As far as pretending to like the guys that’s all I meant- just being pleasant! Not adoring or fawning over them or anything like that. Just being pleasant.

That sounds like a waitress, salesgirl, masseuse, hotel clerk, car rental agent, or virtually anyone who deals directly with customers of any business.

If that's all it is, why would it be a strain and cause harm?

It’s a job when you are faced with numerous men wanting your sexual attention on a regular basis!

Er, okay. Is it the only tough job that exists in our society? Is it the only one that causes stress? Have the other tough jobs been made illegal?

I think you and I probably have different definitions as to what harming a sex industry worker may be.

Well, I always thought that harm had a fairly clear definition, but I'll take your word for it.

Think about it from the customer's view, however. He doesn't know you feel you are being harmed. If he is like me, he would never intentionally harm someone.

He asks if you will do a thing, you agree to do a thing. He figures if you don't want to, you won't. He may suspect you wouldn't do it in your own sex life, but that's a far cry from harm in his mind.

I was never asked to “get out of the business”. I choose to.

I don't think I ever said that someone ever told you to get out. I know you did it deliberately. I'm asking why you didn't do it sooner. Why you didn't quit the first time a guy wanted you to do something you didn't want to? This would have been long before the "emotional harm" you were talking about. Isn't that cumulative over a period of time?

I know you think that the sex industry would disappear if there weren’t a bunch of totally happy sex workers out there- but I must tell you that many stay even though they are unhappy because of financial reasons and lack of other options.

Yes, let's talk about that. Consider the following two women:

1. Lisa signs on as a call girl with an agency

2. she has a couple of sessions, and has mixed feelings about it

3. the next guy wants her to do something she does not consider "normal"

4. she quits and goes to work in a bank




1. Stacy gets a job with another agency

2. she has a couple of sessions, and has mixed feelings about it

3. the next guy wants her to do something she does not consider "normal"

4. Stacy cannot quit. She is a dropout and has no skills at all. She cannot work at walmart. She cannot work at burger king. Prostitution is her only option. If she quits, she will live under a bridge.

5. Stacy continues, even though she doesn't like it.

6. Eventually she works as a call girl for a long enough period that "emotional harm" results.

7. Stacy blames prostitution for her predicament, even though without it she would have had no options and would have been living under a bridge

8. Stacy does not blame herself for dropping out, thereby giving herself no options

9. she does not blame society in general for lack of programs to provide her with options

10. she blames prostitution, the only thing that saved her from living under a bridge, and thinks prostitution should be obliterated, to ensure that the next woman like her will live under a bridge

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

But laws are only one form of social control. Were sex more readily vailable, why would you pay for it? Were nudity more common, why would you pay to see a naked body? Whether or not you would be happier without the proscriptions isn't the issue. Whether or not there would be a commodity to sell is.

Okay, gotcha. I didn't understand exactly what you were proposing before.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

Let's try something else. Everyone claims that the objection to prostitution is the harm it causes and that biblical morality has nothing to do with it.

Why don't we try to eliminate the harm?

1. set up a system whereby each prostitute is licensed by the gubment, similar to doctors and many other professions

2. change the law so that only unlicensed prostitutes are prohibited

3. as part of the licensing process, require each candidate to be counseled on the emotional hazards of sex for hire. Make sure she knows exactly what she is getting into.

4. require a probationary period, where a candidate gets a temporary license. After a few sessions, she is required to meet with a counselor to ensure she feels she can deal with it for a longer term.

5. Once she has her full license, she is limited to a set number of sessions a day, per week, and a set number of sessions during her entire career. Once she reaches the limit, her license is revoked and she is out of the profession. This should take care of the cumulative effect.

6. Each prostitute is required to meet with the counselor on a regular basis. If the counselor thinks she is having problems, her license is revoked.

edit: forgot 7. All licensed prostitutes would be checked for disease on a very regular basis, as Nevada prostitutes are now. Customers could ask to see the medical certificate along with the license.


This would basically eliminate the concept of career prostitutes. Instead, there would probably be a much larger pool of part-time prostitutes. From the viewpoint of the customers, what's the difference?

The only drawback to the prostitutes is that they wouldn't be able to make a living at it, and would use it just for extra cash. Though the truly spectacular women, the ones who are getting huge fees now, might still be able to make a living, at least until they exceeded their max session count. There would be no reason for the gubment to regulate the fees, just the number of sessions.


The "harm" would be completely eliminated, or at least reduced so much that it would be no more than any other profession. Lots of people have job-related stress.

The advantage to the customers is that it would no longer be illegal, and they would have much greater choice, with a larger pool of women to choose from. Remember, stigma and the views of society are not a factor, so there should be a huge pool of candidates.

Does everyone agree that the harm would be removed by this system? If not, how would harm still be caused?

Would you support such a system? Remember, your objection to prostitution is harm to the participants, not biblical morality.

 

[BlondieLashes]

But laws are only one form of social control. Were sex more readily vailable, why would you pay for it? Were nudity more common, why would you pay to see a naked body? Whether or not you would be happier without the proscriptions isn't the issue. Whether or not there would be a commodity to sell is.

I just have to say that I think Brimshack brings up a very valid point here! I am going to take it a step further-

Being a former sex industry worker, I have often wondered why men pay for sex (and by sex I mean everything from porn to a lap dance to the actual act) instead on working on the problem of why they feel they have to or want to pay for sex....

I will try to explain. As an example faster_jackrabbit mentioned that he likes the variety and good body types available through the sex industry. My question is: Are there no good body types or variety available out of the sex industry and in a normal, healthy relationship? What makes someone feel like they need to pay for it instead of finding the real deal? It seems to me that the sex industry just inhibits or stunts many men from working on how to find a satisfying, healty relationship. Kind of like fast-food drive through (that can eventually cause serious health issues) vs. whole, healthy foods.... just at thought....

 

[Leanna]

It seems to me that the sex industry just inhibits or stunts many men from working on how to find a satisfying, healty relationship. Kind of like fast-food drive through (that can eventually cause serious health issues) vs. whole, healthy foods.... just at thought....

 

[BlondieLashes]

Ah yes, but you are forgetting that a sex industry worker is not selling a cup of coffee, checking someone in at a motel or renting them a car - they are selling their body (which by the way contains a soul that also gets affected).


[Well, I always thought that harm had a fairly clear definition, but I'll take your word for it.]

What I meant was that I believe that the harm done in the sex industry goes deeper than just the physical harm (which can be really bad) extending to psychological and spiritual harm.

Think about it from the customer's view, however. He doesn't know you feel you are being harmed. If he is like me, he would never intentionally harm someone.

He asks if you will do a thing, you agree to do a thing. He figures if you don't want to, you won't. He may suspect you wouldn't do it in your own sex life, but that's a far cry from harm in his mind.

Very true. Maybe more consumers of the sex industry should be more aware of the other types of harm involved!

I don't think I ever said that someone ever told you to get out. I know you did it deliberately. I'm asking why you didn't do it sooner. Why you didn't quit the first time a guy wanted you to do something you didn't want to? This would have been long before the "emotional harm" you were talking about. Isn't that cumulative over a period of time?

I wish I had gotten out the first time that happenned. The reality is that there is something called dissociation involved in the lives of many sex industry workers. Rather than me typing out a long explaination of what dissociation is- feel free to look it up on any psychology website.

Yes, let's talk about that. Consider the following two women:

1. Lisa signs on as a call girl with an agency

2. she has a couple of sessions, and has mixed feelings about it

3. the next guy wants her to do something she does not consider "normal"

4. she quits and goes to work in a bank




1. Stacy gets a job with another agency

2. she has a couple of sessions, and has mixed feelings about it

3. the next guy wants her to do something she does not consider "normal"

4. Stacy cannot quit. She is a dropout and has no skills at all. She cannot work at walmart. She cannot work at burger king. Prostitution is her only option. If she quits, she will live under a bridge.

5. Stacy continues, even though she doesn't like it.

6. Eventually she works as a call girl for a long enough period that "emotional harm" results.

7. Stacy blames prostitution for her predicament, even though without it she would have had no options and would have been living under a bridge

8. Stacy does not blame herself for dropping out, thereby giving herself no options

9. she does not blame society in general for lack of programs to provide her with options

10. she blames prostitution, the only thing that saved her from living under a bridge, and thinks prostitution should be obliterated, to ensure that the next woman like her will live under a bridge

Again- look up dissociation. There is so much more involved than the cut and dry scenarios you describe! Every girl or woman is different. There are multiple aspects as to why a girl or woman may stay in the sex industry even though it is damaging to her - I seriously don't have enough time to type out every possible scenario but there are plenty of websites out there that are geared towards women wanting to get out of the industry and helping them to find the resources to heal and to get out. If you are seriously interested in finding out more about it send me a PM and I will send you a list of resources. These may help you understand some of the reasons that many sex workers stay in a harmful industry.

 

[BlondieLashes]

Okay - you can see from my above post that I am technologically challenged at times! I do not have the time to go back and fix that post- just know that the small, black wording is faster_jackrabit and the green is me. LOL!

 

[BlondieLashes]

Let's try something else. Everyone claims that the objection to prostitution is the harm it causes and that biblical morality has nothing to do with it.

Why don't we try to eliminate the harm?

1. set up a system whereby each prostitute is licensed by the gubment, similar to doctors and many other professions

2. change the law so that only unlicensed prostitutes are prohibited

3. as part of the licensing process, require each candidate to be counseled on the emotional hazards of sex for hire. Make sure she knows exactly what she is getting into.

4. require a probationary period, where a candidate gets a temporary license. After a few sessions, she is required to meet with a counselor to ensure she feels she can deal with it for a longer term.

5. Once she has her full license, she is limited to a set number of sessions a day, per week, and a set number of sessions during her entire career. Once she reaches the limit, her license is revoked and she is out of the profession. This should take care of the cumulative effect.

6. Each prostitute is required to meet with the counselor on a regular basis. If the counselor thinks she is having problems, her license is revoked.

edit: forgot 7. All licensed prostitutes would be checked for disease on a very regular basis, as Nevada prostitutes are now. Customers could ask to see the medical certificate along with the license.


This would basically eliminate the concept of career prostitutes. Instead, there would probably be a much larger pool of part-time prostitutes. From the viewpoint of the customers, what's the difference?

The only drawback to the prostitutes is that they wouldn't be able to make a living at it, and would use it just for extra cash. Though the truly spectacular women, the ones who are getting huge fees now, might still be able to make a living, at least until they exceeded their max session count. There would be no reason for the gubment to regulate the fees, just the number of sessions.


The "harm" would be completely eliminated, or at least reduced so much that it would be no more than any other profession. Lots of people have job-related stress.

The advantage to the customers is that it would no longer be illegal, and they would have much greater choice, with a larger pool of women to choose from. Remember, stigma and the views of society are not a factor, so there should be a huge pool of candidates.

Does everyone agree that the harm would be removed by this system? If not, how would harm still be caused?

Would you support such a system? Remember, your objection to prostitution is harm to the participants, not biblical morality.

I would agree that it would be fabulous if all people going into the industry were taught about they hazards of the industry before they take the plunge into it. I think this is totally unrealistic for so many reasons though! Do you have any idea how far and widespread the sex industry is in this world???? Do you really think that if the government were to put your ideas into practice that pimps, escort agencies, porn producers, traffickers, strip club owners, and all sex industry workers, etc. would line up to get liscensed and educated??? Many are already doing what they do illegally- so why change esp. if changing would harm the amount of money they make? Again you are forgetting the psychological aspects of why a person would remain in a harmful industry to begin with....

Also, from this and your previous posts it seems to me that you truly see the sex industry worker as strictly providing a product to customers all the while forgetting that that product is a human being. Because the product is a human being there is no way to set up a business model based on other non-human products that are sold. Human beings are different from products in that they are body, mind and soul (not only Christians believe that - so don't get all worked up! ) When you sell part or all of a human being you sell body, mind and soul.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

I just have to say that I think Brimshack brings up a very valid point here! I am going to take it a step further-

Being a former sex industry worker, I have often wondered why men pay for sex (and by sex I mean everything from porn to a lap dance to the actual act) instead on working on the problem of why they feel they have to or want to pay for sex....

I will try to explain. As an example faster_jackrabbit mentioned that he likes the variety and good body types available through the sex industry. My question is: Are there no good body types or variety available out of the sex industry and in a normal, healthy relationship? What makes someone feel like they need to pay for it instead of finding the real deal? It seems to me that the sex industry just inhibits or stunts many men from working on how to find a satisfying, healty relationship. Kind of like fast-food drive through (that can eventually cause serious health issues) vs. whole, healthy foods.... just at thought....

Isn't this the business of the man himself? Do you think we should legislate healthy food?

There are all kinds of behaviors that are bad for people, such as becoming obese. Do you want to make them all illegal? I recognize your right to worry about my well-being, as long as you recognize my right to ignore you.

My argument has nothing to do with whether people consider prostitution "bad" or not, but with making it illegal.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

I would agree that it would be fabulous if all people going into the industry were taught about they hazards of the industry before they take the plunge into it. I think this is totally unrealistic for so many reasons though! Do you have any idea how far and widespread the sex industry is in this world???? Do you really think that if the government were to put your ideas into practice that pimps, escort agencies, porn producers, traffickers, strip club owners, and all sex industry workers, etc. would line up to get liscensed and educated??? Many are already doing what they do illegally- so why change esp. if changing would harm the amount of money they make?
Again you are forgetting the psychological aspects of why a person would remain in a harmful industry to begin with....

First, I am talking only about prostitution, because this is the only part of the sex industry that is currently illegal nationwide.

Second, what effect would this have on the income of the escort agencies? The women would get the same fees. The agency would get the same cut. They wouldn't have to worry about the police or having to pay bribes. The overhead would be on the part of the gubment. And before you say anything about that, think of the effort already involved in trying to curb illegal prostitution, i.e. vice cops. The licensing system may be less effort.

I am not interested in the pimps. Sure, they would continue to be illegal. But if all the customers moved from illegal to legal prostitutes, their income would dry up completely and they would have to find some other illegal activity. I cannot believe that a majority of the customers likes the danger of arrest and would not switch over to a legal prostitute if they became available. I assure you I would.

 

[Leanna]

Isn't this the business of the man himself? Do you think we should legislate healthy food?

There are all kinds of behaviors that are bad for people, such as becoming obese. Do you want to make them all illegal? I recognize your right to worry about my well-being, as long as you recognize my right to ignore you.

My argument has nothing to do with whether people consider prostitution "bad" or not, but with making it illegal.

Funny you should mention that, I'm writing a fabulous research paper for a class right now about how Americans and their diet and portion sizes are leading to our nation becoming obese and unhealthy. I personally do not like paying for this issue, and yet it is coming out of the taxpayers pockets through things like Medicare.... which is now paying for bariatric surgery that costs on average $25,000 a person.

So if you ask me.... they should legislate that all restaurants must serve PORTIONS that are reasonable. Its the portions that are the main issue. If someone really wants to become obese then they could simply order two portions.

But I doubt you really wanted to talk about that....

 

[BlondieLashes]

Isn't this the business of the man himself? Do you think we should legislate healthy food?

There are all kinds of behaviors that are bad for people, such as becoming obese. Do you want to make them all illegal? I recognize your right to worry about my well-being, as long as you recognize my right to ignore you.

My argument has nothing to do with whether people consider prostitution "bad" or not, but with making it illegal.

No- I don't think we should legislate healthy food. I just think that the selling of human beings (prostitution) should still be illegal.

 

[BlondieLashes]

First, I am talking only about prostitution, because this is the only part of the sex industry that is currently illegal nationwide.

Second, what effect would this have on the income of the escort agencies? The women would get the same fees. The agency would get the same cut. They wouldn't have to worry about the police or having to pay bribes. The overhead would be on the part of the gubment. And before you say anything about that, think of the effort already involved in trying to curb illegal prostitution, i.e. vice cops. The licensing system may be less effort.

I am not interested in the pimps. Sure, they would continue to be illegal. But if all the customers moved from illegal to legal prostitutes, their income would dry up completely and they would have to find some other illegal activity. I cannot believe that a majority of the customers likes the danger of arrest and would not switch over to a legal prostitute if they became available. I assure you I would.

Prostitution is not the only form of the sex industry that is illegal nationwide. What about trafficking and child porn to name just a couple of other forms of the sex industry.

You've got to be kidding me if you really think the escort agencies would want to be legal and liscensed!!! Then they would have to pay taxes, only hire girls that are of legal age and that are legal citizens!

Customers are going to continue to go where they want to get what they want for the cheapest price. If escort agencies and such had to pay taxes hiring someone that wasn't "legal" would still be the way to go as far as price. Trust me- escort agencies and other forms of "management" of prostitutes are not willing to share their split of their income with anyone- esp. the government! There would (I assure you) still be a huge market for illegal prostitution!

 

[BlondieLashes]

Hey- faster_jackrabbit - I noticed that you haven't commented yet on the concept that buying a prostitute is buying a human being (even if it is just for a period of time). How do you feel about that? I'll try to check back in on this thread tomorrow...

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

Hey- faster_jackrabbit - I noticed that you haven't commented yet on the concept that buying a prostitute is buying a human being (even if it is just for a period of time). How do you feel about that? I'll try to check back in on this thread tomorrow...

Buying her? Do I get to take her home and keep her? You mean renting her.

Tell me exactly how hiring a prostitute for sex is any way different from hiring a masseuse for a therapeutic massage. She is performing a service for a fee.

There seems to be a big difference in your mind, but to me the only difference is the service rendered.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

You've got to be kidding me if you really think the escort agencies would want to be legal and liscensed!!! Then they would have to pay taxes, only hire girls that are of legal age and that are legal citizens!

Would the taxes be more than payoffs to the police and bail?

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

Funny you should mention that, I'm writing a fabulous research paper for a class right now about how Americans and their diet and portion sizes are leading to our nation becoming obese and unhealthy. I personally do not like paying for this issue, and yet it is coming out of the taxpayers pockets through things like Medicare.... which is now paying for bariatric surgery that costs on average $25,000 a person.

So if you ask me.... they should legislate that all restaurants must serve PORTIONS that are reasonable. Its the portions that are the main issue. If someone really wants to become obese then they could simply order two portions.

But I doubt you really wanted to talk about that....

Would possibly help, but wouldn't prevent someone from eating a gallon of ice cream a day that they bought from the grocery store. The discussion was about preventing people from engaging in behavior harmful to themselves, not in limiting the number of ways they can do it. You couldn't do that without getting rid of unhealthy foods entirely.

 

[Leanna]

Would possibly help, but wouldn't prevent someone from eating a gallon of ice cream a day that they bought from the grocery store. The discussion was about preventing people from engaging in behavior harmful to themselves, not in limiting the number of ways they can do it. You couldn't do that without getting rid of unhealthy foods entirely.

What can I say? Its a pet peev that I go to a restaurant, order a normal meal, and get enough calories for a day and a half in that one meal.... but if I don't eat it then it gets thrown out and I paid for it...