Legislating morality

[faster_jackrabbit]

What can I say? Its a pet peev that I go to a restaurant, order a normal meal, and get enough calories for a day and a half in that one meal.... but if I don't eat it then it gets thrown out and I paid for it...

I agree that's it's a bad practice. Basically, the restaurants use bigger portions as an excuse to charge more.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

You've got to be kidding me if you really think the escort agencies would want to be legal and liscensed!!! Then they would have to pay taxes, only hire girls that are of legal age and that are legal citizens!

Customers are going to continue to go where they want to get what they want for the cheapest price. If escort agencies and such had to pay taxes hiring someone that wasn't "legal" would still be the way to go as far as price. Trust me- escort agencies and other forms of "management" of prostitutes are not willing to share their split of their income with anyone- esp. the government! There would (I assure you) still be a huge market for illegal prostitution!

I already answered this once, but there was something I forgot to mention.

Your response indicates that you just brushed off my idea without actually thinking it through.

Yes, the existing elements of prostitution (agencies, pimps, prostitutes) would not be likely to make the transition to the new system. I wasn't aware that agencies hired underage girls, thought that was a pimp thing. Certainly no agency ever sent me a 16 year old as far as I could tell. But if they do, it could be that people who are already in the habit of breaking the law don't worry about breaking others.

Who cares what the old agencies would or would not do?

The goal of my idea is to get rid of the current hierarchy of prostitution and replace it with a completely new one.

Think about it. A lot of people not currently involved with prostitution might be interested in starting new agencies since it is no longer against the law. Sure, they would have to pay taxes, but they would not have to pay bribes or bail or any other cost of running an illegal business.

They would have other advantages when competing with the old guard.

Since they would be out in the open, it would be far easier for them to connect with both customers and recruits.

Since they would be operating under a new setup, there would be no reason for them to consult with, or even be aware of, the old guard. They could set up whatever business model and fee structure makes sense. I already said that my idea would reduce the money available to prostitutes, making it a income supplement rather than a profession. So some rethinking of the model would already be required.

Despite what someone else said, I think most customers would prefer not to deal with something illegal if there is a legal alternative. Therefore the bulk of the customers, if not all, would switch over to the new legal agencies and abandon the old illegal ones. Even if it cost slightly more, the peace of mind would be worth it.

If all of their customers disappear, what difference does it make what pimps and the old agencies think about anything? Whether they like it or not, they're out of the prostitution business and no longer have a say in how it is run.

Same with the current prostitutes. Since you say every last prostitute in the country has already sustained severe emotional trauma, they would not be able to transition over to the new system and would be out of prostitution. Isn't that what you want? The plan attempts to prevent the emotional harm to the new prostitutes, and the ones who are already harmed would be gone.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

Prostitution is not the only form of the sex industry that is illegal nationwide. What about trafficking and child porn to name just a couple of other forms of the sex industry.

It gets really annoying when people lump kiddy porn with regular porn in order to make the latter sound worse. You were in the industry. You know that there is no relation between the two. The producers are different. The customers are different.

Are you claiming that you saw underage girls in porn studios? Then why was such a stink made about Traci Lords two decades ago? All of the films she was in were pulled from the shelves, making them collector's items. You'd think the porn studios would not want to risk such an expense again.

industry

1. Commercial production and sale of goods.
2. A specific branch of manufacture and trade: the textile industry. See Synonyms at business.
3. The sector of an economy made up of manufacturing enterprises: government regulation of industry.
4. Industrial management.

In what way is kiddy porn part of the sex industry? Is it advertised? Can I go to a store and buy it? Do kiddy porn producers have booths at the adult industry shows in Las Vegas and LA? Are kiddy porn producers members of the various industry organizations?

If I wanted to buy kiddy porn, how would I go about it? Like I said, it's not in stores. Should I search the internet? What would I find, actual kiddy porn sites with pictures or police sting operations? Would I dare do the search, since information about me would be recorded if I visited the sting site?

Even for an uber-pervert like me, it is a leap to say that I would be interested in kiddy porn, which is hated by pretty much everyone including regular perverts, or that I would be able to find it if I was. I would have no idea where to look.

Does that sound like an "industry" to you? Or is it a small network of psychopaths who produce material only for themselves and people they know and trust?

 

[Andoverpolo]

Something interesting was brought up in another thread, and I thought it was important enough to discuss separately.

Many christians support legislation, both at the national level and at the state and local level, that prohibits behavior they consider immoral or sinful or whatever.

This includes porn, unmarried sex (it is illegal in many jurisdictions, just not enforced), gay sex, gay marriage, booze, topless bars, and so on.

The way I understand the "free will" gag, sin was created and man was given free will to either sin or not sin. Isn't that the whole point, for him to choose whether to sin or not?

If you prevent someone from sinning by passing a law, are you not removing that person's free will to commit that sin? Or at least impairing it?

Some people, such as the dominionists, want to set up an actual theocracy. Wouldn't that remove free will entirely?

Would not god be angry that you are interfering with his plans for mankind?



edit: some people are apparently consfused about the term "legislating morality". This does not just mean creating laws based on morality. All laws that govern human behavior are based on morality.

This is a negative term that means legislating a particular moral code (the bible) on everyone, when not everyone accepts its validity.

States have the right to legislate based on health, welfare and morals. This is called the "Police Powers" doctrine and is derived from the 10th Amendment. It is not something new, it stretches all the way back to the Marshall era and the basic assertion is that the States (when they were autonomous bodies) had a wide range of powers, and unless those powers are specifically given to the federal government or the people as outlined in the Constitution, then they retain them under the wording of the tenth Amendment.

Legal stuff aside, there is a difference between "legislating morality" and "legislating from a moral position" If a duly elected leader is legislating from a moral position, and that is not the only or even most important consideration he makes, one which his constituents knew he would legislate from I see no problem with that. However if you have a body deliberately trying to legislate a certain theology or moral position based on a desire to see their ideology hold the day I have a serious problem with that.

I think it's the difference between Abraham Lincoln - who from a moral position opposed slavery, which played an important part in his political decision to maintain a unified nation, and abolish slavery. Against the Christian Coalition which seeks to substitute the Constitution for the KJV.

I don't think I articulated that well...

But the basic idea is that leaders should be moral, should make moral decisions but there is some boundary I wouldn't presume to say where that is crossed by political organizations with religious agendas.

 

[KCDAD]

Buying her? Do I get to take her home and keep her? You mean renting her.

We have gone from a society that loves people and uses things to one that loves things and uses people. Karl Marx People have become Things.

You are not renting or buying her... just her body and your own fantasies. Professional sex is like massage in the sense that you are paying to have your body serviced. EXCEPT in the sex industry it is not just your body but your mind, soul, and fantasies as well. Do you really think you are pleasuring them? ( or do you care?)Did you not see When Harry Met Sally?

And how does the sex industry change how we view other people? What has it done to our sense of beauty?

 

[BlondieLashes]

Hey there faster_jackrabbit ! Happy Tuesday to you!

After reading through your recent posts I am tired. Most of it has to do with the fact that I am just past 8 months pregnant and my brain and body are just tired. The other part has to do (with all due respect) discussing a subject with someone who seems unwilling to see that there is a different side to his viewpoints at any level. This is a subject that my own viewpoints have changed on drastically over time. I started out in this world not caring about prostitution thinking it would never affect me. I then got involved in it and as a result my viewpoint was that it was fine - what was the big deal?! After living it and watching others live it I saw the reality of the wreck it made of people's lives (up to and including death) and therefore now believe it to be a very damaging and sad part of society. Now I am at a point where if I were to know a prostitute that is totally healthy and happy in her choice of work I would be willing to consider that there may be a way to make it in that industry without being damaged. However, with the many that I have known, still know and may know in the future I have yet to find that the case. The hypothesising of those that haven't lived the life is not convincing to me at all. The thought of changing the "operation" aspect of the industry and/or legalizing it just blatently ignores the deeper issue of the psychological, spiritual and emotional problems that this industry produces. That will not go away no matter how much counseling, etc. one tries to throw at someone in the industry if they are still living the life.

Human beings are not made to be bought, sold or rented at any level. You wonder how seeing a massuse is different than seeing a prostitute which just blows my mind that you really don't see there is a difference. Let's say that you are at work and a co-worker walks up behind you and starts rubbing your shoulders (innappropriate? yes! way beyond out of line? maybe). Let's say that same co-worker walks up behind you and starts touching you the way a prostitute would touch you....do you think there is a difference???? If you can't see the difference there then there really is a bigger problem going on!

You mention lumping in child porn with prostitution - I simply was responding to your comment that prostitution is the only illegal form of the sex industry in this nation. It's not. I mentioned child porn because, yes, it too is illegal and yes, it too is part of the sex industry!!!!! No, you cannot legally buy child porn, but you cannot legally see a prostitute either (except in a small part of Nevada)- yet there is a market for both and yes, people do sell child porn! I will leave it at that.

You also wondered about the cost of bail and court fees, etc. that escort agencies have to pay. If one of the escort agencies' girls get arrested, guess what? She is an "independent contractor" and she has to pay bail, court fees, and fines. The agencies do not pay a cent! I know because I was arrested in 2000. Escort agencies are a fancy way of saying pimp. Escort is a fancy way of saying prostitute. There are varying levels of each - but in the end they serve the same purposes.

The point that I want to leave you with is that the difference in our opinions seem to lay squarely on the fact that I believe that a sex worker has a soul and that that soul gets damaged each time she sells or rents herself sexually. I have no idea if you believe human beings have souls or not. If so, I have no idea if you believe that a human being's soul is involved when they are sexually involved. I believe it as I have experienced it in my own life as well as the lives of others I am close to.

I guess what I am getting at is that we could go on with this debate forever and I just do not have the energy to do so. It is not for lack of interest on my part as this interests me greatly - it is strictly due to my own lack of energy. You have been a complete gentleman in our conversation for which I am grateful as I have encountered several in the debate forum that fall short of that. I wish you all the best in your pursuit of truth!

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

After reading through your recent posts I am tired. Most of it has to do with the fact that I am just past 8 months pregnant and my brain and body are just tired. The other part has to do (with all due respect) discussing a subject with someone who seems unwilling to see that there is a different side to his viewpoints at any level. This is a subject that my own viewpoints have changed on drastically over time. I started out in this world not caring about prostitution thinking it would never affect me. I then got involved in it and as a result my viewpoint was that it was fine - what was the big deal?! After living it and watching others live it I saw the reality of the wreck it made of people's lives (up to and including death) and therefore now believe it to be a very damaging and sad part of society. Now I am at a point where if I were to know a prostitute that is totally healthy and happy in her choice of work I would be willing to consider that there may be a way to make it in that industry without being damaged. However, with the many that I have known, still know and may know in the future I have yet to find that the case. The hypothesising of those that haven't lived the life is not convincing to me at all. The thought of changing the "operation" aspect of the industry and/or legalizing it just blatently ignores the deeper issue of the psychological, spiritual and emotional problems that this industry produces. That will not go away no matter how much counseling, etc. one tries to throw at someone in the industry if they are still living the life.

But the whole point of the couseling was to prevent them from living the life, if possible, by warning them up front what could happen to them. And to take them out of the life, possibly against their will, if the counselor thought they were being damaged.

The idea was to prevent the damage from ever happening, not to heal them afterward.

I assume "seems unwilling to see that there is a different side to his viewpoints at any level" means "cannot see that my viewpoint is right and his is wrong and is unwilling to change his viewpoint to mine". I have not seen any flexibility on your part either.

Actually, if you look back over the arguments, my viewpoint has changed a little. I concede that harm is actually being caused, though I disagree as to whose fault it is or whether it is avoidable or not.

Human beings are not made to be bought, sold or rented at any level. You wonder how seeing a massuse is different than seeing a prostitute which just blows my mind that you really don't see there is a difference. Let's say that you are at work and a co-worker walks up behind you and starts rubbing your shoulders (innappropriate? yes! way beyond out of line? maybe). Let's say that same co-worker walks up behind you and starts touching you the way a prostitute would touch you....do you think there is a difference???? If you can't see the difference there then there really is a bigger problem going on!

I think they are different only in degree, such as the difference between someone slapping you or punching you. Just what kind of a workplace are you talking about, anyway? Where something like that could happen, I mean.

I have my own consulting business now, where I work alone, but I worked for a defense contractor for 18 years. The longest part of that was in a department of about 75 software engineers. As the top technical person in the department, I had a steady stream of people into my office all day long, most of them asking me for help on problems that they couldn't solve.

Since this was a pretty progressive company regarding women in technical fields, especially for the early eighties, there were actually more women engineers than men, including lower level managers. Nearly all were younger than me. Many were cute. One was a cheerleader for the Dallas Cowboys.

So basically, I was in proximity to good looking women all day long, every day.

If any one of them had touched me in any way, it would hardly have made a difference how or where she touched me. I would have been so shocked that I would have fallen out of my chair and might have passed out.

Your scenario is just inconceivable in a professional environment, as least the ones I am familiar with, and is therefore invalid.

You mention lumping in child porn with prostitution - I simply was responding to your comment that prostitution is the only illegal form of the sex industry in this nation. It's not. I mentioned child porn because, yes, it too is illegal and yes, it too is part of the sex industry!!!!! No, you cannot legally buy child porn, but you cannot legally see a prostitute either (except in a small part of Nevada)- yet there is a market for both and yes, people do sell child porn! I will leave it at that.

Fair enough. When I said that prostitution was the only one that was illegal, I completely forgot about kiddy porn. That is as far out of my realm of being as everybody else's, so it slipped my mind.

I still don't consider it even remotely part of an industry though.

Also, somewhere in this discussion, possibly many pages back, it was made clear that we were talking about consentual sex. Sex with children (not consentual by definition) and rape were never intended to be part of this thread. Though people pulled kiddy porn in a couple of times.

You also wondered about the cost of bail and court fees, etc. that escort agencies have to pay. If one of the escort agencies' girls get arrested, guess what? She is an "independent contractor" and she has to pay bail, court fees, and fines. The agencies do not pay a cent! I know because I was arrested in 2000. Escort agencies are a fancy way of saying pimp. Escort is a fancy way of saying prostitute. There are varying levels of each - but in the end they serve the same purposes.

Okay, well their mode of operation is still more suited to prostitution as a criminal act. I say get rid of them entirely and start fresh.

The point that I want to leave you with is that the difference in our opinions seem to lay squarely on the fact that I believe that a sex worker has a soul and that that soul gets damaged each time she sells or rents herself sexually. I have no idea if you believe human beings have souls or not. If so, I have no idea if you believe that a human being's soul is involved when they are sexually involved. I believe it as I have experienced it in my own life as well as the lives of others I am close to.

That could very well be the conflict. I very much believe that the "soul" is an artificial construct created by the delusions of man, as imaginary as god, jesus, heaven, hell, angels, demons, Darth Vader, and Scooby Doo.

So yeah, if your arguments are entirely based on what you think happens to a prostitute's soul, then we have absolutely no point of contact, because I do not believe that there is a soul to harm.

I guess what I am getting at is that we could go on with this debate forever and I just do not have the energy to do so. It is not for lack of interest on my part as this interests me greatly - it is strictly due to my own lack of energy. You have been a complete gentleman in our conversation for which I am grateful as I have encountered several in the debate forum that fall short of that. I wish you all the best in your pursuit of truth!

Okay. Too bad, it is an interesting conversation. I would say maybe after the baby is born, you would have more energy, but maybe not. You may not have energy for the next 18 years.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

We have gone from a society that loves people and uses things to one that loves things and uses people. Karl Marx People have become Things.

How did Ben Grimm get into this discussion?

You are not renting or buying her... just her body and your own fantasies. Professional sex is like massage in the sense that you are paying to have your body serviced. EXCEPT in the sex industry it is not just your body but your mind, soul, and fantasies as well. Do you really think you are pleasuring them? ( or do you care?)Did you not see When Harry Met Sally?

Have you not been reading my posts? Of course I don't think she feels anything. I wouldn't expect her to feel anything. I would be surprised if she feels anything. If she does, it would be nice for her, and if not, it doesn't matter.

Do you not understand that it is totally mechanical sex, the whole point of which is your own pleasure? I don't recall ever claiming otherwise. If the point was for her to enjoy it, I would expect her to waive the fee. It wouldn't be prostitution, just sex.

Sex with a prostitute is a form of multi-body masturbation. It is exactly like doing yourself while watching a porn video. The only differences are that it is three dimensional and that you can smell purfume and touch and feel and instead of just watch. Emotionally the two acts are identical.

Sex with a prostitute is not a replacement for sex with a regular partner whom you care about. It is a substitute to hold you over when your regular partner is not available. And believe it or not, some partners do not mind this, basically because they know you don't care about her. I know this is beyond the comprehension of those in jesusland, but it does happen.

I perfectly understand why most women would have a hard time with prostitution and would never want to do it. What I don't understand is why they do it of their own free will, with full comprehension of the nature of it, and then claim they are being victimized by it.

I don't know why the problems come as a surprise to them. If I had been a woman considering it, I would have just assumed that being with that many uncaring, nameless men would interfere with my normal relationships with men. So I wouldn't have gotten into it.

I actually had a chance to be in porn one time. At least I think I did. This friend of a friend of a brother of a cousin of a friend (or something like that) told me somebody was looking for guys to be in a porn movie. It sounded cool (I was 23 at the time), but I thought gee, if I have sex day in and day out whether I really want to or not, won't that kinda take the fun out of it?

And what is this soul of which you speak?

And how does the sex industry change how we view other people? What has it done to our sense of beauty?

You mean beyond what popular media has already done? I think the way people view each other in an unrealistic fashion permeates all of society. I don't think the sex industry is the only culprit. You have heard of movie stars and supermodels, right?

 

[Electric Skeptic]

- cheating on a partner
- religious prosletyzing (particularly to children)
- creationism (although this falls into the one above)
- astrologers, soothsayers, 'psychics', etc.,
- hunting for sport
- racism/sexism/homophobia
~~~~~> from post 119
If society has SANCTIONS OR FINES OR TAXES, it is to discourage the behavior. It is illegal in the sense that one can not freely behave this way without sanctions...
... courts will rule in favor of the "wronged" spouse in any divorce, custody or supporrt issue based on adultery.
...courts will rule in favor of parents and children to issue cease and desist, or protection orders against those who proseltyze children with out the parents permission
... look at Kansas
... there are limits to the amount of bilking and fraud these quacks can get away with under the guise of entertainment. Courts have awarded damages when it can be proved that the "entertainer" intentionally ripped off the rube. (this is not mention the negative stygma society places on these con men)
...you must be licensed, pay a fee, a tax... and if you don't or if you go over your limit, (they make you shoot one of your hunting buddies...) you can be jailed. The sport hunting industry is supposed to be a closed box of supply and demand.
...look at civil rights legislation, 14th amendment, it is illegal to unfairly discriminate against anyone. Fines, jail... wrist slapping... there are all kinds of punishments issued for this.

They are NOT illegal in the only sense that matters - they are not against the law. Sure, if you want to define 'illegal' to mean something other than 'illegal', then they're illegal. But I tend to stick to accepted meanings of words, and not make up my own.

 

[KCDAD]

What I don't understand is why they do it of their own free will, with full comprehension of the nature of it, and then claim they are being victimized by it.

They don't do it of their own free will. They have been socialized into thinking that this what they are good for... this is all they are good for. Often sex is the their first experience with adult males at a very young age. It isn't that they don't choose to do it, many do... the point is they don't think they have any other viable choice.

Their purpose in life is to be used for sex. That is pretty pitiful. That they get paid for it is not necessarily the main point of prostituion. Many of us know women who are prostitutes for free. They sell themselves for attention. The ones that do sell themselves for money have even more psychological issues to deal with.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

They don't do it of their own free will. They have been socialized into thinking that this what they are good for... this is all they are good for. Often sex is the their first experience with adult males at a very young age. It isn't that they don't choose to do it, many do... the point is they don't think they have any other viable choice.

Their purpose in life is to be used for sex. That is pretty pitiful. That they get paid for it is not necessarily the main point of prostituion. Many of us know women who are prostitutes for free. They sell themselves for attention. The ones that do sell themselves for money have even more psychological issues to deal with.

Sorry, but you'll have to provide some support for this. The few sex industry workers I've known haven't had any of the above. They get into the industry of their own free will because it's the best way to make lots of money. You've made a lot of claims here about the psyches of prostitutes - can you support ANY of them?

 

[KCDAD]

Sorry, but you'll have to provide some support for this. The few sex industry workers I've known haven't had any of the above. They get into the industry of their own free will because it's the best way to make lots of money. You've made a lot of claims here about the psyches of prostitutes - can you support ANY of them?

Talk to prostitutes you aren't paying for sex (or whatever service they are providing). They are not about to tell you the truth if they see you as a potential trick. Porn performers are more difficult because they always have a potential buyer in someone... their image, like any celebrity, is too valuable to taint with truth.

Go to the victims threads... listen to them.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

Can you certify that every last sex worker in the world is in those threads? Or even a majority? Or even a significant percentage?

Or is it just the ones who think they have problems and want to talk about them? The ones who assume that everybody else is just like them?

Blondielashes claims she has seen many. Is that equivalent to most? Or all?

 

[KCDAD]

Can you certify that every last sex worker in the world is in those threads? Or even a majority? Or even a significant percentage?

Or is it just the ones who think they have problems and want to talk about them? The ones who assume that everybody else is just like them?

Blondielashes claims she has seen many. Is that equivalent to most? Or all?

I can't certify that anyone posting is a real person, who they claim to be, or believe anything they claim to believe is true.

 

[KCDAD]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-04-04-homeland-official-arrest_x.htm?csp=24

Here's your sex industry story of the day...

Homeland Security official caught trying to seduce a "14 year old" over the internet.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

And the sex "industry" was involved how? All it said was "over the internet". One would assume a chat, but nothing was said about the type of site. Is it possible to have private conversations only on sexually related sites?

The title said "child porn", which again I do not consider part of the "sex industry", though there was no mention of porn of any kind in the actual article. The pictures he sent "her" were not pornographic.

It was just an attention grabbing headline.

 

[KCDAD]

It is a result of our preoccupation with sex, our preoccupation with self, and our willingness to use other living, breathing, feeling people as objects for our own pleasure. That is what the sex industry is about.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

So what? This presumes everyone treated as an "object" has a problem with it. If I could get women to think of me as an object of desire, I would be in a heaven far more wonderful than the one I keep hearing about here.

It's tiresome to hear people continually spout about how they think other people should think and feel, or how they should live their lives. Have you heard me do that even once on this board?

I think christianity is silly, and all the baggage that goes with it, but I have yet to tell someone they shouldn't do it.

 

[faster_jackrabbit]

I can't certify that anyone posting is a real person, who they claim to be, or believe anything they claim to believe is true.

Then why use it as evidence? People can say pretty much anything on the internet.

In a porn thread over on IIDB, a guy spoke of a married couple he knew that appeared to be the happiest he had ever met. He was a porn producer, she was a performer.

Now blondielashes would invariably say they were in "denial" and "hiding their pain from the world", but how do we know that?

They would probably say she had a jesus infection, which is why she can't enjoy the sex industry any more.

People should really stop generalizing the sex industry and the customers of the sex industry. Both are comprised of individuals, and everyone does not think and behave the same.

 

[Pure1]

Please read the following article:

http://www.prostitutionrecovery.org/how_prostitution_works.html