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Left Behind

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by aforchrist33, Mar 17, 2002.

  1. Sin

  2. Being lukewarm

  3. Being hypocritical

  4. Not sure

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  1. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

    261
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    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. parousia70

    parousia70 I'm livin' in yesterday's tomorrow Supporter

    +2,937
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    Do you believe a saved Christian can be left behind?

    Scripture indicates that the answer is YES!!!

    As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man.

    As It was in the days of Lot, so shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man.

    What happened in Noah's day?
    The flood came and took the wicked away in Judgement, and the righteous (Noah & his family) were LEFT BEHIND on Earth.

    What happened in Lots Day?
    The wicked of Sodom were taken away in the Judgement of fire and brimstone, and the righteous (Lot) was LEFT BEHIND on Earth.

    "So shall it be at the coming of the Son of Man"

    2 in the field, one (wicked) will be taken( in Judgement) and the other (righteous) will be LEFT BEHIND(on Earth), EXACTLY as it was in the days of Noah & Lot.
     
  3. JohnR7

    JohnR7 Well-Known Member

    +191
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    Married
    The Bible says that the Bride will be without spot, blemish or wrinkle. The referance here is to the garment she will be wearing. She will be clothed in righteousness. This is a work of God in our life.

    If we went by OUR work, we would be wearing filty rags. Sense we go by God's work in us, we will be a radiant bride. God makes all things beautiful in their time.

    Ephes. 5:26-27 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, [27] that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

    We can be what the word of God says we can be, and we can do, what the word of God says we can do. Because we have the Holy Spirit of God to help us. Thanks, JohnR7
     
  4. Susan

    Susan 退屈させた1 つ (bored one)

    +120
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    Single
    US-Democrat
    I didn't respond to your poll because I believe that no saved person will be left behind.
    Unsaved persons who appeared to be believers but weren't really, sure.
    However a system in which one must trust in their own works or spiritual state or attunement to the events of the day (or anything else for that matter) to get into Heaven is dangerously close to works-righteousness legalism.
    We are to trust only in the work of Christ Who died in our place, therefore making us righteous (and ready for the rapture :) :clap: :bow: )
    Good works are important but as an evidence of our faith-not a ticket to Heaven.
    My $.02 :)
     
  5. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

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    Dear Parousia70;

    Welcome to our ministry.

    Not true! The examples you gave of God's people being rescued from wrath by being left on earth doesn't mean, God is going to not rescue His people so they can face wrath with the unsaved ..... For God hath (not appointed us to wrath), but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:9

    "One wicked taken in judgement" is not an unsaved being raptured ! where in that scripture does it say the wicked will be taken up? You are adding to scripture to justify your personal belief ..... For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so (them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him). 1 Thessalonians 4:14

    If God raises the unperfect saved dead He will shurely bring the justified by faith saved living!
     
  6. Rjano21

    Rjano21 New Member

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    Saved Christians will not be subject to the wrath of God. 1Thes. 5:9 says "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."

    The 7 vials of Revelation 16 illustrate God's wrath upon the unsaved world. Other references to God's wrath are found in all parts of the Bible: Zephaniah 1:18 says "Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land

    Its certainly not Christians who God makes a "speedy riddance" of. Besides, all the unsaved people on the earth who take the mark of the beast will be subject to the 7 vial judgements, so they're not going anywhere until that's done.
     
  7. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

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    Dear Susan:

    Welcome to our ministry!

    Shure is refreshing to hear those who stand up for truth. I agree with your post 100% God bless!
     
  8. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

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    Dear Rtano21;

    Amen! I agree 100% God bless!
     
  9. Eric H

    Eric H New Member

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    What about the innumerable saints coming out of the tribulation? Are they not saved and yet left behind?

    Eric
     
  10. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

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    Dear ErioH;

    Welcome to our ministry!

    You asked" Saints comming out of the tribulation, are they not saved and yet left behind?"

    Answer; The reason they are left behind for the duration is because they were not saved before the Rapture. A good question, keep searching! God bless!
     
  11. Nick_Loves_Abba

    Nick_Loves_Abba Bulls On Parade

    +45
    Christian
    I have a Question. Although I believing in the rapture, I have no scriptures that can bacj up my belief. COuld you all point me to some? Also where does it say the trib will be 7 years? Also where does it say the Anti-Christ will start the trib by signing a peace treaty between Israel? Also where does it mention Israel and Palestine becoming peaceful towards each other?

    I think I remember reading about the AC making peace between Israel and Palestine, thats oen of the huge reasons people will love him.

    I'd really love some scripture.
     
  12. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

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    Dear NickLovesAbba;

    So nice to hear from you again, I would be delighted to help. However believing that a man will eat longer if you give him a fishing pole I wll supply you with our blessed hope of the rapture and let you catch your own fish. Should you have any problem please drop us a line lol.

    1 Corinthians 15:51-54 / 2 Corinthians 5:2 / Ephesians 4:4 / Colossians 1:22 / Titus 3:13 / 1 Thessalonians 4:13 / 2 Thessalonians 2:1 / 2 Corinthians 4:8 / 2 Corinthians 11:2 / 1 Corinthians 1:7,8 / 1 Thessalonians 1:10 / 1 Thessalonians 2:19 / 1 Thessalonians 5:10 / 2 Thessalonians 1:7 / Philippians 4:5 / Philippians 3:21 / Galatians 1:4 / Ephesians 5:27 / Romans 11:25 God bless!
     
  13. Eric H

    Eric H New Member

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    The reason for my question stems from a discussion I had with a 'pre-trib' friend. He says believers can not be here on earth during the great tribulation because according to 1Thes. 5:9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ."
    And the seven bowls are God's wrath, right? So it seems that if one believes the saved cannot experience God's wrath, why would those saved during the tribulation be subject to it, while those saved before are not? I don't really see the difference between the two groups. They are both saved.

    Just seeking answers.

    Eric
     
  14. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

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    Dear ErioH;

    A good point! I believe the fairness is in God keeping His word to those who accepted before it was to late, for Jesus often refered to reaping what we sew. I believe God is fair to those left behind in giving them a second chance. Therefore I see no injustice at all. Do you? God bless!
     
  15. Rjano21

    Rjano21 New Member

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    Eric:
    That's a good question, and my belief is that there is not a separate "left behind" group and "tribulation" group of Christians. I believe that the Bible teaches the Rapture and the Second Coming occur at the same time, and all Christians will go through the Great tribulation.

    It is true that Christians are not subject to the wrath of God like I said below, however the Great tribulation is not the wrath of God. It is the wrath of Satan (Rev 12). Christians and Jews are the ones targeted by the Great tribulation, not unbelievers.

    Nick:

    Daniel 9:27 says: "And he (the Antichrist) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate..."

    One "week" here is referring to 7 years. In the middle of these 7 years, the Antichrist does something called the "abomination of desolation" where he stands in the Temple of God, claiming to be God (2Thes. 2:4). This event marks the start of the Great Tribulation (the last 3 1/2 years)

    The covenant spoken of in Daniel 9:27 is what most people consider to be a peace treaty. It might simply be the affirming of Israel's right to exist. There's a document in the Israeli Knesset called the Jerusalem Covenant, which states that Jerusalem is the eternal capital of Israel. This might be the covenant being confirmed, however its not certain yet.

    It doesn't, but most people interpret that covenant as a peace treaty. We know that somehow the Temple will be rebuilt, but the palestinians will still be allowed on the Temple mount (Revelation Chp 11). So, we can conclude that there will be some sort of agreement, but there will not be genuine peace.

    As for the Rapture, I believe that the Rapture and Second Coming are at the same time. There aren't any verses which say the Rapture is before the Great tribulation, it is wishful thinking (after all, who wants to go through it?)

    Hope that helps.
     
  16. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

    261
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    Non-Denom
    Dear Rjano21;

    You said, "All christians will go through tribulation" And that "There arn't any verses which say the rapture is before the great tribulation"

    Not true! all Christians are sealed with the holy Spirit, (Ephesians 1:13 eternally 4:30) and before the antichrist is revealed the holy Spirit we posess will be removed from the earth with us. (2 Thessalonians 2:3,7,8) better start "Rightly dividing" (2 Timothy 2:15)
     
  17. engrapho

    engrapho New Member

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    I want to be left behind!

    (Luke 17:34-37 NIV) I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. {35} Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left." {36} {37} "Where, Lord?" they asked. He replied, "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather."

    · Let me guess, you always thought this passage was about the rapture. The one taken was taught to be the Christian, and the one left was in big trouble! NOT SO, I would rather be the one left. These that are taken, will be going to the Battle of Armageddon. I don’t understand how we can take verses 34 and 35, yet ignore verse 37. WHERE are they going? I believe it is to battle against the Lord.

    The very idea that the righteous are taken first, leaving the unrighteous behind is wrong. It is the unrighteous first. See this point in the next passages.

    (Mat 13:24-30 NIV) Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. {25} But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. {26} When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared. {27} "The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?' {28} "'An enemy did this,' he replied. "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' {29} "'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. {30} Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.'"

    Matthew 13:30 says it all, first collect the weeds, then gather the wheat. In the following verses, the Bible is interpreting itself.

    www.geocities.com/engrapho/lessons.html
     
  18. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

    261
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    Non-Denom
    Dear Engrapho;

    With all due respect "Just when I thought I heard them all" LOL

    Man! God help us we are truly living in the age of confusion. How can you say God "Leaving the unrighteous behind is wrong"" by using (Matthew 13:30) when

    Matthew 13:37 - The sower = Jesus
    Matthew 13:38 - Disposes sinners = Tears
    Matthew 13:39 - At the end of the world which comes after the tribulation.

    Better start "Rightly dividing" (2 Timothy 2:15)

    God bless!
     
  19. engrapho

    engrapho New Member

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    It is amazing the way the rapture is taught almost everyday as a main teaching for being a christian and yet if you open your bible the early church NEVER said what is being said. They talked about the resurrection and the end. They taught that it happened at the same time. Why doesn't Paul, Peter and others say don't get left behind? Be looking for the rapture. How could such a strong teaching be overlooked by the bible!

    · Are we to be looking for the end, or an escape that’s well before it? There are many verses which imply the writers of the New Testament were looking for the end not an escape from it.

    (1Peter 4:7 NIV), The end of all things is near.

    (Mat 24:13-14 NIV) but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. {14} And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
    (does the above verse imply we are preaching till the end?)

    Instead of holding on till the rapture, fight till the end!

    (1 Corinthians 1:8 NIV), He will keep you strong to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    (John 6:40b NIV), .... and I will raise him up at the last day.

    · Look at Martha’s faith in the story of Lazarus.

    (John 11:23-24 NIV) Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." {24} Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

    · Even Martha knew her brother’s resurrection would come on the Last Day, or at the end. She failed to realize Jesus Is The Resurrection. Jesus did raise Lazarus from the dead that day, but Lazarus did not get his glorified body and at some point latter he died like all men do. Jesus never corrected her theology concerning the order of end time events or her faith in the resurrection at the end. As a good shepherd He should have corrected her if she was wrong. She wasn’t a Pharisee, she was His!


    We are to look for the resurrection 1 Cor 15, using the word rapture instead of resurrection has lead to believers not being able to study this subject on thier own. Because they can't understand it untill they study what the teachers have put together. When I was a new christian in 1977 I was taught a pre-trib rapture. I took all the charts etc and could not get it, though I wanted to. So I sought no other person and prayed and read my bible for the truth and I believe I got the truth. Then I found out other have the same and they got it in prayer. (Pre - trib is only thing taught). The proof of a solid doctrine is the words the doctrine uses are the same words the bible uses with out any special interpretation.
     
  20. Rjano21

    Rjano21 New Member

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    2 Thess 2:3-8 doesn't say the Holy Spirit will be removed from the earth. That's just your assumption of what is meant here... Paul didn't tell us what would be "taken out of the way."

    Not only that, but if the Spirit was removed from the earth, then wouldn't these "tribulation saints" NOT receive the filling of the Spirit? God promised to fill ALL Christians with the Spirit; but what your interpretation is doing is creating two classes of Christians. Theres no support in the Bible for doing this.

    Romans 8:9 says: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

    Think about that one, if the Holy Spirit is removed from the earth in 2Thes 2, it would be Impossible for anyone to be saved in the tribulation. They wouldnt have the "Spirit of Christ" so they'd be "none of his" according to this verse.
     
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