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Left Behind

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by aforchrist33, Mar 17, 2002.

  1. Sin

  2. Being lukewarm

  3. Being hypocritical

  4. Not sure

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  1. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

    261
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    Non-Denom
    Dear Rjano21;

    Please pay attention, (2 Thessalonians 2:7,8)

    "Only he" = Holy Spirit.
    " That wicked" = antichrist

    There are only two spiritual forces at work here.

    1. Good = Holy Spirit - (2 Thessalonians 2:7)

    2. Evil = Satan - (2 Thessalonians 2:8)

    Also your example of the holy Spirit not being able to enter those left behind is like saying. "How can Jesus be in anyone when He has been removed from the earth.

    Better start "Rightly dividing" (2 Timothy 2:15) so you can help others. God bless!
     
  2. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

    261
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    Non-Denom
    Dear Engrapho;

    1. Why would you say "Instead of holding on to the rapture" when Paul tells us to hold on and comfort each other with being "Caught up" (1 Thessalonians 4:18)

    2. The reason you never read about being "Caught up" in the early church is because it was "A mistery revealed to Paul" (1 Corinthians 15:51)

    Why not rest in that blessed hope instead of living in fear of being good enough to measure up to God's love. God's love is unconditional, if you could be good enough to escape tribulation then Jesus would have died in vain. He died because you couldn't justify yourself. God bless!
     
  3. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

    454
    +1
    I have a question;
    In the book of John, when speaking of the end times, he tells us to pray (always) so that we will be counted worthy to escape all of these things.
    To what reference is he speaking of?
    Wildfire
     
  4. Rjano21

    Rjano21 New Member

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    Your premise is still unfounded. The "he" is not the Holy Spirit, and Paul never says that. That's your own private interpretation of scripture. Verse 6 gives us a clue: "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time" Time is the withholding factor.

    My point about the Holy Spirit is that your argument that He gets "removed" is meaningless if he's still here and filling Christians. If he still fills Christians, then he never left to begin with; what's the difference? The Holy Spirit has a physical presence here on earth, Jesus Christ has a spiritual presence in us. There's a big difference.

    My purpose is to help others understand what The Bible teaches about these things. The Bible never teaches that Christians will escape any tribulation, in fact our Lord Jesus himself taught that we would have tribulation in the world. Just try to tell Christians in China, Sudan or Indonesia that they wont have to face tribulation. They'll laugh in your face because they deal with it daily. Christians here have simple gotten too comfortable with their freedom of religion, that the thought of tribulation is horrifying. Anyone who looks at the great tribulation with fear is disobeying our Lord (John 16:33, Matt 5:11-12).
     
  5. engrapho

    engrapho New Member

    45
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  6. engrapho

    engrapho New Member

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    If your going to quote Matt, get the context; Matthew 13:30 says it all, first collect the weeds, then gather the wheat.
     
  7. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

    159
    +2
    Protestant
    I remember when brothers Peter and Paul LaLonde had their weekly TV program "This Week In Bible Prophecy" back in the early 90's. On a TV newsroom-style set, Paul Lalonde would read the current events in the news of the past week, and Peter Lalonde would give commentaries and Paul too. And Peter's wife Patti would show up to do special reports. They had correspondents and everything like a regular newscast. They were trying to change Christian television from the frankly trashy programs you see too often (in which you are embarrased and want to change the channel fast!) to those of a professional Network TV News level with intelligent anchors, correspondents, and viewers, with high production and technical quality.

    Now the Lalondes have a movie studio, Cloud Ten Pictures. They know that Hollywood will never produce a movie that promotes Jesus Christ. They have an earnest desire to bring Hollywood technical quality to Christian filmmaking without the profanity and anti-family side of Hollywood.

    Click on the Left-Behind : The Movie web site below. Click on the "Multi-media" button, then "Video". Look for the "Interviews From On The Street".

    http://www.leftbehind-themovie.com/

    http://www.cloudtenpictures.com/

    Then you will see how much the public is ignorant about the Bible!

    These are the people the Lalondes, as well as Tim Lahaye, are trying to reach.

    It should be noted that the actors in the home video version I have of Left Behind: The Movie make testimonies after the movie and on a corresponding tape that they would not want to be Left Behind and to receive Jesus Christ today.

    And the Left Behind music video (by Bryan Duncan with Shine), which can be heard and seen at the movie's web site given above, makes it clear with its main message "I will not be Left Behind".

    Whether we like some of the details of the interpretations, perhaps LaHaye's version is the best to present the concept of the coming Tribulation to the public. And his books are on the best-seller list.

    Just like in the movie Titanic by James Cameron, of course, the story of Jack and Rose Dawson was corny and fictitious, but this was the vehicle used to tell the story of the Titanic from start to finish. And of course historians debate details of the way Cameron portrayed the Titanic sinking. But Cameron, at least, got the public to thinking about it, and it became the top box office movie of all time.

    When you think about it, the concept of the Titanic itself is a lot like the concept of the coming Tribulation, to those who have never heard of it.
     
  8. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

    261
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    Non-Denom
    Dear Mcfly1960;

    Welcome! And thank's for sharing that information. God bless!
     
  9. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

    261
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    Non-Denom
    Dear Wildfire;

    Welcome!

    You asked why John told us to pray "So that we will be counted worthy"

    Answer: John was refering to those who were counted worthy under a covenant relationship of being justified by works of law keeping. (John 15:10 /1 John 5:2,3)

    If we on the other hand were justified the same way we would be fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4) God bless!
     
  10. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

    261
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    Non-Denom
    Dear Rjano21;

    If you continue to deny (2 Thessalonians 2:7,8) as only having two forces at work to prove he as being the holy Spirit, there's no sence arguing the point.
     
  11. solo66 man

    solo66 man Well-Known Member

    +2
    hypocrite means actor. Therefore those who are only acting as christians will miss it.
     
  12. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

    +21
    Non-Denom
    Left behind? of course not, we're all going up like it or not!
     
  13. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

    261
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    Non-Denom
    Dear Solo66man;

    You said, "Those who are only acting as Christians will miss it"

    Are you refering to a saved hypocrite?
     
  14. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

    261
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    Non-Denom
    Dear Andrew;

    Amen to not being left behind! God bless.
     
  15. mcfly1960

    mcfly1960 Member

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    Protestant
    You're welcome!! And thanks a lot!! :D
     
  16. lisa03wilson

    lisa03wilson Member

    166
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    engrapho- I know what you mean- I have a friend who is pre trib and when I told him I didn't think the rapture would happen untill the end or somewhere in the middle of the trib he looked at me like I was crazy, When I asked him why he thought it would come before the trib he said that the bible said so, when I asked him where he said probably in Daniel somewhere.

    point- I am not saying that anyone here does not have good support, I am just saying my firend was taught this all his life without ever being taught where it could be found. aforchrist33- I am still looking through you're verses, but some seem to be typos or something, like Titus 3:13: "Do everything you can to help Zenas the lawyer and Apollos on their way and see that they have everything they need" ??? there are a few others like that too.
     
  17. engrapho

    engrapho New Member

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    There are Christians who live in Russia, China, and other countries who are already being persecuted for their faith. They are not counting on a secret rapture to save them from the coming persecution, it is already too late!

    The following is a quote from a dear sister who has gone on to be with Jesus.

    "I have been in countries where the saints are already suffering terrible persecution. In China the Christians were told, ‘Don’t worry, before the tribulation comes, you will be translated or raptured.’ Then came a terrible persecution. Millions of Christians were tortured to death. Later I heard a Bishop from China say, sadly, ‘We have failed. We should have made the people strong for persecution rather than telling them Jesus would come first.’

    Turning to me he said, ‘You still have time. Tell the people how to be strong in times of persecution, how to stand when the tribulation comes-to stand and not faint.’

    "I feel I have a divine mandate to go and tell the people of this world that it is possible to be strong in the Lord Jesus Christ. We are in training for the tribulation...

    "Since I have gone already through prison for Jesus sake, and since I met that Bishop from China, now every time I read a good bible text I think ‘Hey, I can use that in the time of tribulation.’ Then I write it down and learn it by heart."

    ----Corrie ten Boom

    (James 1:2 NIV) Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds,

    (1 Pet 1:5-7 NIV) who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. {6} In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. {7} These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor .

    The Church must prove to be genuine. Trials produce something far more greater than gold. Why would the church leave before the tribulation?

    (Rom 5:3 KJV) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

    · (Mat 24:14 NIV) And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

    (2 Th 2:3 NIV) Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.


    The poll should have had one more reason for being leftbehind; Being a Pharisee and religious, after all they were the only people Jesus spoke harsh to. He called them all kinds of names. They knew the scripture so well they rejected the one they were looking for. If your here during the trib and believed in pre-rapture; you may loose you faith and fall away. Or accept the mark after all the church is still here, there was not a rapture.

    God help us all


    P.S. it's God's people who are leftbehind. We are not appointed unto wrath. Those who gather for the great battle will be judged.
     
  18. engrapho

    engrapho New Member

    45
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    lisa03wilson- Here some good Daniel verses

    > Daniel’s Post-Tribulation Rapture <

    (Dan 11:45 NIV) He will pitch his royal tents between the seas at the beautiful holy mountain. Yet he will come to his end, and no one will help him. (Dan 12:1-4 NIV) "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people--everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. {2} Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. {3} Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. {4} But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."

    · The ‘He’ in Daniel 11:45 is the Anti-Christ. He will set himself up to be God, causing the Abomination that causes desolation.

    · In Daniel 12:1, ‘At that time’ refers to the Anti-Christ pitching his royal tent at the holy mountain, then coming to his end. God’s people will need protecting, so Michael arises. Then the resurrection is described in verse 2. This description matches closely the account given by Paul in 2 Thess and Jesus in Matthew 24.

    (Dan 12:7-13 NIV) ....., "It will be for a time, times and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed." {8} I heard, but I did not understand. So I asked, "My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?" {9} He replied, "Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. {10} Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand. {11} "From the time that the daily sacrifice is abolished and the abomination that causes desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. {12} Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days. {13} "As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance."

    · Notice in verse 11, after the abomination that causes desolation there will be 1290 days, approximately 3 and half years. Then we are told to reach 1335 days. This leaves a 45 day period in which no one knows the day or the hour. Daniel is told in verse 12 to go ahead and rest or die, then after the end of 1290 or 1335 days he will rise to receive his inheritance. That’s right beloved, Daniel is resurrected or raptured after the last 3 and a half years of the tribulation!

    Daniel’s body is held by Death, as all believer’s are. His body will rise when Death’s hold is destroyed. Those who hold to a pre-tribulation rapture theory, believe that 1 Cor 15:52 is talking about the rapture, and rightly so.

    In that same chapter I Cor 15 Paul taught that Death must be destroyed. We only got as far as verse 26. Let’s finish up that chapter.

    (1 Cor 15:51-54 KJV) Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, {52} In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. {53} For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. {54} So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    · Here in these verses is more proof, that at the time of the Rapture, Death is destroyed. There can not be any deaths of Christians during the Tribulation if Death was destroyed at the beginning of the tribulation. In the context of 1 Cor 15:51-54 this truth is being directly related to the Rapture.

    Death holds our bodies as mortals. The Rapture is Biblically called the Resurrection. The resurrection is when mortality becomes immortality. When He (Death) is destroyed, we will be immortal. This is the true hope of the Church. It is not in escaping persecution and tribulations. The point of the Rapture is to escape Death, nor the Tribulation.

    Thank God He's got the keys!!!!
     
  19. aforchrist33

    aforchrist33 Member

    261
    +1
    Non-Denom
    Dear Engrapho;

    You said,

    1. (Daniel 12:1) "Matches closely the account given by Paul." in 2 Thes.)

    Comment: Your assumption falls nothing short of an unproven opinion. You cannot use the word "Closely" to make a positive statement.

    2. You also used (Matthew 24) refering to the end to continue justifying your false doctrine.

    Let me ask you something. To prove your telling the truth, Would you be willing to answer one question at a time by saying yes or no without comentary? If so here it is .......

    1. = Does "Matches closely" mean (Matches identically?)
     
  20. engrapho

    engrapho New Member

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    Aforchrist33

    Was that a comment on those scriptures? Your comment doesn't match anything scriptural.

    A major Resurrection of the Righteous is a match! There will be only two Resurrection, one for the righeous @ the end of the trib, one for the unrighteous @ end of mill.

    rev 20:4-6 Death is only destroyed once. That brother sounds like a match. No matter if your Pre or Post it's good news.

    If you like we are matches. Made in His image! :wave:

    With all due respect.
     
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