LDS LDS: The Book of Mormon

[Tawhano]

Viracocha is the white, bearded god in question. Wiki talks about how Pizarro was mistaken for him, leading to his being able to roll over a large group of people.

This article does nothing to support the claim that the Incas knew Jesus. The end result is:

I saw something like that in my 5th grade world history book.

So yeah - it's not something that people just made up.

Yeah it is something you and Peter1000 made up.

 

[Tawhano]

But God has power over the elements, he can create worlds without end.

Since I do not believe God has a physical body this is not a problem for my postion on the topic.

 

[Tawhano]

Are you saying that if God had a physical body that it would have to stick to physical laws as we know them?

Yes

 

[Tawhano]

A couple of questions about this post--

1. So you believe Jesus discarded His resurrected perfected fleshy body?
Yes

2. Where does it say that in the Bible?
It doesn’t. This is not a problem for me that it doesn’t say it word for word. Being a Mormon I would think you can appreciate that. I believe this because I believe God is a spirit and Jesus rose out of sight of the Apostles and sits at the right hand of God.

3. Why would He do that? Especially just after resurrection and to emphasizing it?
To take up a spirt form to ascend into heaven as we all shall if we have the seal of God at the end.

4. Why do you think that a fleshy tabernacle somehow limit God whom created the world?
God is spirit not flesh; not flesh and blood or flesh and bone.

5. Do you think you'll have a fleshy tabernacle after resurrection?
No.

All this is explained in Corinthians:

(1Co 15:35-44) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

This passage is an answer to the questions “How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?”. The answer is with a spiritual body. Since Jesus prepared our way to heaven then it stands to reason we will follow him in the same way. Since we are told that it is with a spiritual body the it stands to reason that Jesus broke out of the sown body and raised with a spiritual body.

 

[Tawhano]

Well, I must disagree---

Luke 24 describes a scene before Jesus rose into heaven in a spiritual body. See my post to Jane_Doe on my reason to believe Jesus ascended into heaven with a spiritual body and not a glorified fleshly body.

I must disagree with you too.

This was after His resurrection. However, Jesus is also fully divine-- with this human body He could do this

I concede that the verses you shared give the impression that Jesus, like a specter, was vanishing and walking through closed doors however, taking those verses with the others in the Bible on the topic of the spiritual body I read those differently. It is not clear cut that Jesus walked through the closed door but only that he was in the room with the door closed. The same language used in Luke 24:31 about Jesus vanishing is reflected elsewhere when it talks about Jesus walking away unnoticed such as:

(Joh 8:59) Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

I’m not saying you don’t have a valid point but for me that view doesn’t fit with scriptures on the topic of spirit vs flesh.

So am I mistaken in thinking, from your questions, that the Seventh Day Adventist also believe we will have fleshly bodies in heaven?

 

[Peter1000]

Could you supply information on this book that I can find it or supply a link you read that supports your claim please?

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Any book you can pick up (google "Cortez was mistaken for Jesus") on Cortez and the Spanish Conquest will have expanations as to why Cortez could have conquered the mighty Aztec empire.

One of the reasons given is that the Aztec people worshipped a god by the name of Quetzalcoatl.
* He was a loving, and benevelent god who was also the creator of the world.
* He had anciently visited their land, late 1st century BC or early 1st century AD and had eventually sailed or ascended off to the East.
* He said that he would some day return.
* He has 2 descriptions, one is a bearded, white-skinned man. The other is a winged serpent.
This is a remarkable discription of Jesus Christ. Did Jesus Christ visit the people of the Americas after his resurrection and ascension into heaven?

+ Cortez came from the East in a beautiful sailing ship. Never before seen by the native people.
+ Cortez was a bearded, white-skinned man.
+ The Spniards were very impressive, advanced people.

At first the Aztec people mistakenly believed that Cortez was Quetzalcoatl/Jesus. So one of the reasons Cortez was able to defeat the Aztec empire is that the Aztec at first believed this could be the returning of Quetzalcoatl/Jesus.

 

[Peter1000]

I believe that Jesus did go to teach other people of the world. Once Jesus was transfigured into a spirit being he was free of the limitations of the flesh and was able to travel the world to do so. Jesus said the other sheep were not of this fold so therefore the indigenous people of the Americas were not of the House of Israel.

(Joh 10:16) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

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It makes sense that Jesus would share the gospel to other people of the world. But since we believe his earthly ministry was to the House of Israel, I believe the other people would have been Israelites around the world.

You are right to quote John 10:16 as support for these visits around the world. When Jesus was talking in this scripture, he was talking to pretty much the Jewish(Judah) fold of the House of Israel. The people of the Book of Mormon came out of Jerusalem around 600 BC, and sailing by ship, ended up in the Americas. But they were of the Joseph fold of the House of Israel.

There were many groups of people in the Americas that were not of the House of Israel, but the Book of Mormon people were. It is to this people that Jesus Christ visited around 33 AD.

By the time of the conquest in 1517 AD, the incredible visit of Jesus Christ was still known, but the story line and his persona over 1500 years had, to an extent, been corrupted. But it was still known that he was a bearded, white-skinned god, that he was loving and benevelent, was the creator of the world, and that he would return again in the future.

 

[Peter1000]

I have several books on world history and I cannot find one reference that Cortez even hints that the people he encountered knew Jesus. I also did a search online for this "book of Cortez" and the closes reference to that was his journal and that didn't support the view that the people he met knew Jesus. I believe you and Peter1000 are reading into this bit of history your own perception and not historical references. I could be wrong but unless you and Peter1000 have more than just your views on this topic I will have to file this bit of information as bogus.

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The Aztecs did not know Jesus, as we do.

They worshipped a god by the name of Quetzalcoatl, the description of this god is remarkably like Jesus.
See my post #206 and #207 for more details.

 

[Tawhano]

Any book you can pick up (google "Cortez was mistaken for Jesus") on Cortez and the Spanish Conquest will have expanations as to why Cortez could have conquered the mighty Aztec empire.

Again you make a claim you cannot back up with any source. What books? As I already mentioned I have several books on world history and none mention any connection between the Aztec and Jesus. True they had a god called Quetzalcoatl and if you wish draw parallels between them but nowhere in the only book written by Cortes (his journal) did he make that distinction as you suggested in your earlier post.

 

[Tawhano]

___________________________________________________________________________________

The Aztecs did not know Jesus, as we do.

They worshipped a god by the name of Quetzalcoatl, the description of this god is remarkably like Jesus.
See my post #206 and #207 for more details.

Which is totally different than what you first claimed.

 

[Ironhold]

This article does nothing to support the claim that the Incas knew Jesus. The end result is:
Yeah it is something you and Peter1000 made up.

I at least didn't say anything about the Incas knowing Jesus... just that it's a historical fact that at least one conquistador was accepted as a long-awaited "white, bearded god".

That's it.

 

[Jane_Doe]

1. So you believe Jesus discarded His resurrected perfected fleshy body?
Yes

2. Where does it say that in the Bible?
It doesn’t. This is not a problem for me that it doesn’t say it word for word. Being a Mormon I would think you can appreciate that. I believe this because I believe God is a spirit and Jesus rose out of sight of the Apostles and sits at the right hand of God.

3. Why would He do that? Especially just after resurrection and to emphasizing it?
To take up a spirt form to ascend into heaven as we all shall if we have the seal of God at the end.

4. Why do you think that a fleshy tabernacle somehow limit God whom created the world?
God is spirit not flesh; not flesh and blood or flesh and bone.

5. Do you think you'll have a fleshy tabernacle after resurrection?
No.

All this is explained in Corinthians:

(1Co 15:35-44) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

This passage is an answer to the questions “How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?”. The answer is with a spiritual body. Since Jesus prepared our way to heaven then it stands to reason we will follow him in the same way. Since we are told that it is with a spiritual body the it stands to reason that Jesus broke out of the sown body and raised with a spiritual body.

You do, realize that many mainstream Christians on this forum whom would condemn you as a vertical non-Christian because of these views? (Specifically denial of the sola scriptura and denial of a bodily resurrection).

I do consider you a brother is Christ, but disagree with you on the lack of a bodily resurrection and your interpretation of the Corinthians scripture.

Thank you for sharing your views with us.

 

[Tawhano]

I at least didn't say anything about the Incas knowing Jesus... just that it's a historical fact that at least one conquistador was accepted as a long-awaited "white, bearded god".

That's it.

No argument on that point. From your defense of Peter1000's post I, apparently in error, assumed you were agreeing with his stance that Cortes wrote the people he met knew of Jesus.

 

[Tawhano]

You do, realize that many mainstream Christians on this forum whom would condemn you as a vertical non-Christian because of these views? (Specifically denial of the sola scriptura and denial of a bodily resurrection).

I do believe the Bible to be the "supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice". Where the Bible is silent on a topic I also believe other sources can be used as authoritive if it does not contradict Bible teaching. My views are in line with Biblical teaching on the resurrection of our souls in spiritual bodies and not natural bodies. But thank you for your concern and kind responses.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I do believe the Bible to be the "supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice". Where the Bible is silent on a topic I also believe other sources can be used as authoritive if it does not contradict Bible teaching. My views are in line with Biblical teaching on the resurrection of our souls in spiritual bodies and not natural bodies. But thank you for your concern and kind responses.

Cool.

If you don't mind me asking (out of curiosity), since you view the Bible as silent on this matter, would you fault someone else coming to a different conclusion? How about other matters in which the Bible is silent?

 

[Ironhold]

No argument on that point. From your defense of Peter1000's post I, apparently in error, assumed you were agreeing with his stance that Cortes wrote the people he met knew of Jesus.

There are plenty of records of instances in which Native American belief showed such a parallel to Jewish or even Christian belief as to be shocking to many conquistadors and priests, something that - both then and now - has helped fuel debates as to whether or not this signifies some sort of Jewish or even Christian teaching reaching the Americas before Columbus. This is but a subset of the larger debate concerning who exactly reached America and when.

The original circa 1995 version of the book "Lies My Teacher Told Me" had an entire chapter on this dispute, even going so far as to devote a full page to a chart summarizing who is believed to have come over, when, and the strength of the evidence.

For example, there's fairly strong evidence - including at least one possible religious structure - to suggest that a group of Irish explorers arrived in North America (IIRC, the New England region or southeastern Canada) well before Columbus did; much like the Vikings, however, the Irish colony (if any) was short-lived if it did exist.

 

[mmksparbud]

Luke 24 describes a scene before Jesus rose into heaven in a spiritual body. See my post to Jane_Doe on my reason to believe Jesus ascended into heaven with a spiritual body and not a glorified fleshly body.



I concede that the verses you shared give the impression that Jesus, like a specter, was vanishing and walking through closed doors however, taking those verses with the others in the Bible on the topic of the spiritual body I read those differently. It is not clear cut that Jesus walked through the closed door but only that he was in the room with the door closed. The same language used in Luke 24:31 about Jesus vanishing is reflected elsewhere when it talks about Jesus walking away unnoticed such as:

(Joh 8:59) Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

I’m not saying you don’t have a valid point but for me that view doesn’t fit with scriptures on the topic of spirit vs flesh.

So am I mistaken in thinking, from your questions, that the Seventh Day Adventist also believe we will have fleshly bodies in heaven?

Yes--as Adam and Eve had. People, seem to want to think that spiritual means we will be some sort of "spiritual plasma" floating around instead of the condition of the heart---I don't see anything to suggest that, otherwise, why even bother with a resurrection of the dead? Some believe that is why we can not see the realm in which God, and even the fallen angels live. But, we can when our eyes are opened by God.

(2Ki 6:17) And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

He can also close those eyes---as Jesus did in the verse you quoted:
(Joh 8:59) Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

I can't hide myself from the eyes of those around me, if they throw stones at me, they'll hit me.

I see no reason to impose limitations on what God will allow the human body to do, or see. God made these physical laws, Her does not need to abide by them.

(Dan 3:22) Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

(Dan 3:23) And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
(Dan 3:24) Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
(Dan 3:25) He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God

(Act 28:5) And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
(Act 28:6) Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.

If we are spirit only, then why do we have access to the tree of life and the water if life--food and water--basic human needs. We get to have trees, animals, live in the house of God, we will have eyes that see and ears that hear
(Rev 21:4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(1Co 2:9) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

We will be changed, that is clear--from mortal corruptible bodies, to incorruptible, immortal ones. Jesus made a vow before He died---
(Mat 26:29) But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

We'll drink more than water. We'll have voices, we will sing and praise the Lord. I don't see any of this as being some sort of formless vapor.

When Jesus spoke to Mary after His resurrection he said:
(Joh 20:17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
However, a little later, He said this to hos diciples
(Luk 24:39) Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

He had not yet ascended to His Father when He met Mary, and she could not touch Him--- yet a little later He tells His disciples to touch Him. So, He must have ascended to His Father in between.

HHMMM------this is off topic. Sorry. Let's not derail. This is about Mormon believes!----ooops!

 

[Tawhano]

HHMMM------this is off topic. Sorry. Let's not derail. This is about Mormon believes!----ooops!

I think it is on topic but yes we should hear from the Mormon members if they agree with your views. If so then we are still debating the Book of Mormon if they agree that it also teaches what you have written in your post. Besides no BOM verses have been posted to support this view as of yet.

 

[Tawhano]

My comment above about BOM verses to support the flesh and blood being different from flesh and bone argument sparked my curiosity. I searched the BOM and found no mention of the phrase "flesh and bone". I also found no verses to support there being any difference the two. Flesh, blood and bone were used interchangeably in reference to our mortal bodies.

 

[Peter1000]

Again you make a claim you cannot back up with any source. What books? As I already mentioned I have several books on world history and none mention any connection between the Aztec and Jesus. True they had a god called Quetzalcoatl and if you wish draw parallels between them but nowhere in the only book written by Cortes (his journal) did he make that distinction as you suggested in your earlier post.

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Do you believe that Cortez was not at any time treated like he was a returning God by the Aztec and other native peoples?