LDS LDS: The Book of Mormon

[Peter1000]

Which is totally different than what you first claimed.

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Not quite "totally different". They didn't know the name Jesus, but they knew a bearded, white-skinned, loving and benevolent God, that was the Creator of heaven and Earth, who visited their ancestors early 1st century AD, and said he would some day return. The name they give to this god is Quetzalcoatl. I believe Quetzalcoatl was a somewhat-corrupted Jesus

Are you going to find the name of Jesus on one of their temples or in their writings, no. That is because to the Aztec his name was Quetzalcoatl. It is also true that by the time the Spaniards came to the Americas, the true Jesus had been replaced by a corrupted Jesus named Quetzalcoatl.

Cortez, himself, wrote Charles V of Spain and explained that one reason he was able to conquer the Aztec empire was the gullibility of the Aztec to his being a God.
Toribo de Benavente Motolinia also saw so many elements of Christianity in the native religions that he thought the Americas had been evangelized before Columbus. He suggested the Apostle Thomas had visited this land.
We believe these religious elements were vestiges of the teachings of Jesus, and also the teachings of the disciples that he called and left with the people when he first visited them.

There is no dought in my mind the Jesus Christ visited the Americas after his resurrection and ascention. But having said all this, I will, however, be willing to admit that thier god Quetzalcoatl may not be a representation of Jesus, but at this point, because of the remarkable parallels, and the elements of Christianity in the Aztec religion, I do believe they are the same.

 

[Tawhano]

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Do you believe that Cortez was not at any time treated like he was a returning God by the Aztec and other native peoples?

No, not at all.

 

[Tawhano]

Read a book of Cortez, and why many of the natives bowed down and worshiped him. He was a bearded white man that came to their lands from the East. They thought he was Jesus.

Are you going to find the name of Jesus on one of their temples or in their writings, no. That is because to the Aztec his name was Quetzalcoatl. It is also true that by the time the Spaniards came to the Americas, the true Jesus had been replaced by a corrupted Jesus named Quetzalcoatl.

Here is the problem I have with your statements; they are purely opinion and not historical in any way. In your post #186 you made reference to the “book of Cortez” which I asked for and never got a link to your source. It turns out the only book that Cortes (Hernán Cortés) wrote that is available to read is a translation of his journal. There is absolutely no mention in that publication that Cortes thought the Aztecs mistook him for Jesus. Cortes did write a letter to Charles V of Spain which apparently is the source of idea that the Aztec believed him to be a god. This is not what he wrote in his journal however. The similarities of Jesus and the god Quetzalcoatl that you suggested also do not appear in Cortes’ journal nor any respectful historical document with the exception of this Feathered Serpent sometimes represented as a man with a beard. I surmise that you simply skimmed through articles on the Internet on this topic and did not fully understand what you were reading. Quetzalcoatl is not the name the Aztecs gave to Jesus. You had no proof when you first submitted this idea and you still have none. So far all you have done is repeat, in error, parts of articles you read or a web site that was trying to make that connection.

On the up side you did provide me with the opportunity to research the topic which I found very interesting.

 

[Peter1000]

No, not at all.

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Forgive me for repeating, but let me make sure I am making myself understood.

You do not believe that Cortez was at any time during the conquest, considered Jesus or any other Aztec god that was returning to the Aztec or any other natives in the Americas?

 

[Peter1000]

Here is the problem I have with your statements; they are purely opinion and not historical in any way. In your post #186 you made reference to the “book of Cortez” which I asked for and never got a link to your source. It turns out the only book that Cortes (Hernán Cortés) wrote that is available to read is a translation of his journal. There is absolutely no mention in that publication that Cortes thought the Aztecs mistook him for Jesus. Cortes did write a letter to Charles V of Spain which apparently is the source of idea that the Aztec believed him to be a god. This is not what he wrote in his journal however. The similarities of Jesus and the god Quetzalcoatl that you suggested also do not appear in Cortes’ journal nor any respectful historical document with the exception of this Feathered Serpent sometimes represented as a man with a beard. I surmise that you simply skimmed through articles on the Internet on this topic and did not fully understand what you were reading. Quetzalcoatl is not the name the Aztecs gave to Jesus. You had no proof when you first submitted this idea and you still have none. So far all you have done is repeat, in error, parts of articles you read or a web site that was trying to make that connection.

On the up side you did provide me with the opportunity to research the topic which I found very interesting.

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The book is called Cortes, The Great Adventurer and the Fate of Aztec Mexico
by: Richard Lee Marks
Sprinkled throughout the book are references to Cortez as a god. In the final analysis it did prove to Cortez's advantage in the conquest to be thought of as a returning god.

I will just give you one sentence found on page 74. "So, if Quetzalcoatl, as the legend recounted, had a long time ago and for some unknown reason forsaken and abandoned his people and he had now in the form of these strangers returned, why then these strangers are probably blood kin of Montezuma himself, and he and they shared a degree of divinity."

Is it because his journal does not mention the Aztec considering Cortez as Jesus or any other god that this is your only source of truth?

The letters to Charles V of Spain, written by Cortez, which do say that the gullible natives thought him a god, seems to have apparently been spurned and cast aside.

I would consider his letters as historical as his journal because they were both written by him, don't you think.

The real historical document that puts Cortez as god, front and center is the Florentine Codex written by Bernardino de Sahagun, a priest of the Franciscan order.
Sahagun was with Cortez when he met for the first time with Montezuma, and in the Codex, Sahagun records these words (among others) from the mouth of Montezuma to Cortez:
You have graciously come on earth.
You have come down to your throne, which I have briefly kept for you.
Now come on earth, take your rest, enter into your palace and rest your limbs.

It is a fascinating study. Is their god Quetzalcoatl really a corrupted Jesus Christ. The similarities are remarkable. So do not just throw it away as a fraud. There is more to it than you might think. The Book of Mormon is the only known document that tells us that Jesus came to the Americas and preached the gospel to these people. If ever there is more non-Mormon information available that supported this event, it will shed a favorable light on the Book of Mormon. Of all the ruins in Central America, only about 3% have been uncovered. There is a lot more area that may turn up some interesting information, especially about the appearance of Jesus Christ in the Americas.

 

[Tawhano]

Forgive me for repeating, but let me make sure I am making myself understood.

You do not believe that Cortez was at any time during the conquest, considered Jesus or any other Aztec god that was returning to the Aztec or any other natives in the Americas?

I am not convinced but I do not discount it.

It is a fascinating study. Is their god Quetzalcoatl really a corrupted Jesus Christ. The similarities are remarkable. So do not just throw it away as a fraud.

It is a fascinating study and I do not throw it away as fraud. It was your misleading post claiming it to be factual that I was debating.

As I had mentioned before I do believe Jesus, after he was resurrected and before returning to the Father, did visit other people in the world. Because Jesus said they were of another fold I do not believe the people he visited were the people of the BOM, who allegedly were of the House of David.

 

[Tawhano]

The book is called Cortes, The Great Adventurer and the Fate of Aztec Mexico
by: Richard Lee Marks

My post got mangled somehow. It should have included my thanking you for finally supplying the source of your information.

 

[Peter1000]

My post got mangled somehow. It should have included my thanking you for finally supplying the source of your information.

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Sorry, my wife put the book in a different place and I couldn't find it for a couple of days. It is one of the best books I have read on the conquest. The author is very pessimistic about the idea that Cortez was thought of as a god. But intertwined throughout the entire book are pieces of information about that subject, so that by the end you have got a pretty good idea that the legend of the return of Quetzalcoatl was part of that whole drama. Iwould recommend the read.

 

[Peter1000]

I am not convinced but I do not discount it.


It is a fascinating study and I do not throw it away as fraud. It was your misleading post claiming it to be factual that I was debating.

As I had mentioned before I do believe Jesus, after he was resurrected and before returning to the Father, did visit other people in the world. Because Jesus said they were of another fold I do not believe the people he visited were the people of the BOM, who allegedly were of the House of David.

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I may have more of an opinion than facts about the Aztec thinking Cortez was the return of Jesus. But I do believe there is enough historical documentation (regardless of his journal) to at least say that the Aztec and other native peoples, did at one time believe Cortez was Quetzalcoatl returned. There are too many scholars that believe that because of this belief, it gave Cortez a decided advantage in the conquest, along with a large number of help from other discruntled tribes, and their advanced weaponry.

Mormons do not have a big problem equating Quetzalcoatl with Jesus, because most of his desription fits most of Jesus's description. But that is yet to be decided by in the future with more archeological discoveries.

I love the subject and through your studies, if you ever find out anything new, please let me know. I will do the same. Thanks for the discussion, I enjoy it.

 

[Tawhano]

It is one of the best books I have read on the conquest.

You better be right because it took me several hours to find a copy to purchase.

 

[Bethany35]

I thought the door knockers defined themselves as Christian, I was wrong?

 

[withwonderingawe]

My post got mangled somehow. It should have included my thanking you for finally supplying the source of your information.

I love it when some one else mangles something ;-)

 

[Peter1000]

You better be right because it took me several hours to find a copy to purchase.

Well, I'm not sure what you would be able to do to me if you don't think I'm right, but I believe you will enjoy the book as much as I did. Good reading.

 

[Peter1000]

You better be right because it took me several hours to find a copy to purchase.

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I also noticed that you have a statement about polygamy on this post. How much research have you done on the history of polygamy in the OT and NT?

 

[jackcv]

2 Nephi 5 says their SKIN was turned black not corrupt.

"the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them"

Webster's 1828 Dictionary (the way Joseph Smith would have used the word - ignoring for the moment any local idiomatic uses)

BLACK, adjective

1. Of the color of night; destitute of light; dark.

2. Darkened by clouds; as the heavens black with clouds.

3. Sullen; having a cloudy look or countenance.

4. Atrociously wicked; horrible; as a black deed or crime.

5. Dismal; mournful; calamitous.

 

[jackcv]

And yet one comes with a disclaimer, while the other does not.

LDS Article of Faith #8:

"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God." (italics mine)

Odd that we have thousands of manuscripts in the original languages for the Bible to verify correct translations, but no such thing for the BoM, and no such disclaimer.

I would say the lds hold the BoM higher in authority than the Bible.

The Dead Sea Scrolls include several versions of the OT, all of them very different. The scholars who have examined the scrolls and published about them conclude that before rabbinical Judaism took over about 70 AD, scribes were given (and took) great interpretive liberties with the scriptural texts.

Biblehub.com, my favorite Bible website, shows one about 18 parallel translations of any biblical scripture you want to see. You may be amazed at the significant differences that you will see just among the Bibles being read today.

To know the truth from reading the Bible requires exactly the same procedure as knowing the truth from the Book of Mormon, or Apocrypha, or Bhagavad Gita, or Quran, or your college bio-chemistry or astrophysics text):

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would 1) ask God, the Eternal Father, 2) in the name (service, for the glory) of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask 3) with a sincere heart, 4) with real intent (to do what God wants you to do), 5) having (a history of) faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
​

Personal scientific study alone is inadequate if you're only dealing with TV sets or aspirin tablets, but certainly not reliable enough to bet your eternal life on! Do your best thinking, then ask God for confirmation or redirection of where your mind has taken you. In Christianity, Judaism, Baha'i, Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim and all of the great world religions the need for Divine Guidance (personal revelation) are clearly presented.

Ask, and ye shall receive.​

 

[jackcv]

Dude, you're starting to get insulting here.

I'm more than familiar with the scriptures... all of them.

I actually had to retire my first set because the spines were blown out.

Many, perhaps most, of the persistent disagreements between faithful Christians of all persuasions are due to different definitions of the same word. We say grace, you say grace, but the definition is vastly different.

We look up scriptural words in our 2015 dictionary and think we understand what the KJV translators meant by it, or what Joseph Smith meant by it. I have gradually come to realize that to do so is ridiculous. English is a living language! Look at the word "gay." Look at the word "flame." The 2015 dictionary tells you what people in 2015 mean by that word - not what the scriptural writers meant 50, 100, 300, 2000 years ago.

If you want to know what Joseph Smith meant in his writings, look up important terms in the 1828 Webster's dictionary - free online. If you want to understand what the original writers of the OT and NT meant, go to Biblehub.com and click on the Hebrew or Greek version of the scripture in question, then on the Strong's definition.

Then we will have less flaming, less frustration with each other. We will see that, in the great majority of cases, we see eye to eye with the faithful of all the great world religions - and that God is the Father and Mentor of us all.

 

[jackcv]

Won what??
What cement has cracked?
We're still the sheep in the fold, following the voice of Our Shepherd, JESUS CHRIST. No other voice needed.

We win when we are one in the Savior and the Father as they are one in each other.

The voice of our Shepherd is heard by the individual, direct from the Shepherd.

 

[jackcv]

As has been stated several rimes, this was not new, it was planned to be a new covenant. from the beginning.

(Jer 31:31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

The Levitical system was always temporary, it pointed to Jesus as the Lamb, and He became the High Priest for us. It was not a revocation but a fulfillment.

I've found down through the years that SDA and LDS doctrines are very, very parallel in most instances. I think there are a lot of Celestial people from both religions who will be surprised to see each other on the same throne (Rev 3:21).

Of course, I also expect there will be a lot of Christians, Mormons and SDAs who will be surprised to see that God is a Being of Light, brilliant white, with curly hair, thick lips, a broad nose - who looks and sounds like James Earl Jones. Maybe.

 

[jackcv]

OFF TOPIC ^^^. Can we discuss the BoM ?



This is a statement without substantiation. Care to provide it?

Sure, drstevej. It's been done millions of times, but most people don't want to do what's necessary.

Let's work up. Read Malachi 3:10 and follow those instructions. It's 10%, not $10 in the collection plate. Pay it to God, and live on the other 90%. See whether He substantiates that.

When you are doing that, you are exercising faith, and then you can ask in faith.

Another way to substantiate scriptures is laid out in Gal 5:13-22. Walk by the Spirit, as Paul directs, and see whether you enjoy the promised fruits.

When you have shown our Father in heaven what you are willing to do with what He has already given you, then He will be willing to give you more, in the name (service, glory of) Jesus Christ. That's how we substantiate our claims, but taking God at His word and proving Him worthy, as He and his servants tell us to do.

Now, it might be that your service (like Gandhi's, Mother Teresa's, and many others') is temporarily needed elsewhere, and His answers to your queries are essentially "wait". Then grow where you are planted, love for the sake of loving, serve for the sake of serving. In time, you will know all things, see as you are seen, and be one in Jesus and the Father as they are one in each other.

Substantiation is more about doing than talking. "Prove me now herewith," saith the Lord.