LDS LDS leaders have known since at least the 1920s that the BOM is not historical

He is the way

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Were your leaders lying then? Or are you unable to admit you are incorrect? Has to be one or the other...
There is a lot more evidence for the Book of Mormon today than there was in 1922. As this video goes on it is apparent that Shannon Caldwell Montez is trying to justify her thesis, and she admittedly has NO notes from the meetings. And the moderator is just trying to get her to say negative things about the church one of which concerns President Joseph Smith:

"The Senate called on many witnesses to testify. Church President Joseph F. Smith took the stand in the Senate chamber in March 1904. When asked, he defended his family relationships, telling the committee that he had cohabited with his wives and fathered children with them since 1890. He said it would be dishonorable of him to break the sacred covenants he had made with his wives and with God. When questioned about new plural marriages performed since 1890, President Smith carefully distinguished between actions sanctioned by the Church and ratified in Church councils and conferences, and the actions undertaken by individual members of the Church. “There never has been a plural marriage by the consent or sanction or knowledge or approval of the church since the manifesto,” he testified.43

In this legal setting, President Smith sought to protect the Church while stating the truth. His testimony conveyed a distinction Church leaders had long understood: the Manifesto removed the divine command for the Church collectively to sustain and defend plural marriage; it had not, up to this time, prohibited individuals from continuing to practice or perform plural marriage as a matter of religious conscience.[3]"

From: Mormonism and polygamy/Practiced after the Manifesto - FairMormon

That being said, the only perfect person that ever lived was Jesus Christ. That includes ALL of Christ's apostles. Even Thomas had his doubts. I have NO doubt that the Book of Mormon is true. Keeping secrets is nothing new. Jesus Christ and His apostles kept secrets:

(New Testament | Matthew 16:20)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

(New Testament | Mark 9:9)

9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
 
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BigDaddy4

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There is a lot more evidence for the Book of Mormon today than there was in 1922.
Your irrelevant polygamy and Scripture quotes aside, there is no more credible evidence today for the BoM than in 1922. There is a bunch of "maybes, possibly's, could be's" and other lame attempts by Mormon apologists to justify the fairy tale known as the Book of Mormon. The fact is, there is no credible evidence of millions of Israelite descendants living in the Americas during the claimed time period of the BoM.
 
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He is the way

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Your irrelevant polygamy and Scripture quotes aside, there is no more credible evidence today for the BoM than in 1922. There is a bunch of "maybes, possibly's, could be's" and other lame attempts by Mormon apologists to justify the fairy tale known as the Book of Mormon. The fact is, there is no credible evidence of millions of Israelite descendants living in the Americas during the claimed time period of the BoM.
You said: "there is no more credible evidence today for the BoM than in 1922."

Actually there is:

Five Compelling Archeological Evidences For the Book of Mormon

More Mounds Skeletons & Artifacts near Cumorah

Ancient Hebrew Artifacts in the United States

Book of Mormon Evidence
 
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BigDaddy4

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Your desperation is noted. Get back to me when you find the missing link between whatever "credible" evidences (which are debatable to begin with) you think you've provided and the actual peoples, places, and events of your fairy tale book. Until then, all you have is wishful thinking.
 
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He is the way

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Your desperation is noted. Get back to me when you find the missing link between whatever "credible" evidences (which are debatable to begin with) you think you've provided and the actual peoples, places, and events of your fairy tale book. Until then, all you have is wishful thinking.
No big surprise here. I doubt that you spent much time looking at the links I posted. Usually people see only what they want to see.
 
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BigDaddy4

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No big surprise here. I doubt that you spent much time looking at the links I posted. Usually people see only what they want to see.
Please quote where any of your links connect the dots to the people, places, and events of the BoM. Please quote from your links that Reformed Egyptian was a legitimate language. Something definitive, not a "could be", "maybe", or "possibly" thing.
 
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He is the way

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Please quote where any of your links connect the dots to the people, places, and events of the BoM. Please quote from your links that Reformed Egyptian was a legitimate language. Something definitive, not a "could be", "maybe", or "possibly" thing.
"Not one, but three ancient altars inscribed with the same three Semitic consonants of the place-name, Nahom, as mentioned in 1 Nephi 16:34. Never mind the lack of vowels in the Hebrew alphabet that might alter the pronunciation: “Ni-ham,” “Nu-heem,” “Nehum”. The coincidence remains staggering. Not only are these altars found in the right place, they date to the right time. If that’s not enough, Nahom itself appears associated with the Hebrew word for “mourning”, which is precisely why the Lehites were there. Nahom was one of the largest burial areas in ancient Southwestern Arabia,6 and the travelers were there to mourn the death of their beloved friend, Ishmael."

"Book of Mormon readers are well aware of a tribal group who claimed to descend from a son of King Zedekiah named Mulek. (Helaman 6:10; 8:21) Trouble is, history wasn’t aware of any “Prince Mulek”, let alone any children of King Zedekiah who would have survived the Babylonian massacre. And one who found allies and migrated to the New World? That’s what makes this seal so interesting. Mulek is easily an hypocoristic, or shortened, form of Malkiyahu, exactly as today we’d shorten Alexander to Alex or Nathaniel to Nate. Mulek may have also been mentioned in Jeremiah 38:6.10 This artifact is so small it could fit on your fingernail, yet its implications could be enormous."

From: Five Compelling Archeological Evidences For the Book of Mormon
 
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BigDaddy4

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"Not one, but three ancient altars inscribed with the same three Semitic consonants of the place-name, Nahom, as mentioned in 1 Nephi 16:34. Never mind the lack of vowels in the Hebrew alphabet that might alter the pronunciation: “Ni-ham,” “Nu-heem,” “Nehum”. The coincidence remains staggering. Not only are these altars found in the right place, they date to the right time. If that’s not enough, Nahom itself appears associated with the Hebrew word for “mourning”, which is precisely why the Lehites were there. Nahom was one of the largest burial areas in ancient Southwestern Arabia,6 and the travelers were there to mourn the death of their beloved friend, Ishmael."

"Book of Mormon readers are well aware of a tribal group who claimed to descend from a son of King Zedekiah named Mulek. (Helaman 6:10; 8:21) Trouble is, history wasn’t aware of any “Prince Mulek”, let alone any children of King Zedekiah who would have survived the Babylonian massacre. And one who found allies and migrated to the New World? That’s what makes this seal so interesting. Mulek is easily an hypocoristic, or shortened, form of Malkiyahu, exactly as today we’d shorten Alexander to Alex or Nathaniel to Nate. Mulek may have also been mentioned in Jeremiah 38:6.10 This artifact is so small it could fit on your fingernail, yet its implications could be enormous."

From: Five Compelling Archeological Evidences For the Book of Mormon
Do you understand what the word definitive means? I have bolded your errors. The fairy tale still remains a fairy tale.
 
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He is the way

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Do you understand what the word definitive means? I have bolded your errors. The fairy tale still remains a fairy tale.
de·fin·i·tive
/dəˈfinədiv/
Learn to pronounce

adjective
  1. 1.
    (of a conclusion or agreement) done or reached decisively and with authority.
    "a definitive diagnosis"
It is a conclusion but I can see that it is not an agreement between us. These five compelling archeological evidences have come to light in the past few years. Have you got and "proof" that the Book of Mormon is not true?
 
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dzheremi

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"Not one, but three ancient altars inscribed with the same three Semitic consonants of the place-name, Nahom, as mentioned in 1 Nephi 16:34.

You'd have to motivate that particular reading of the inscription, which I'm going to guess that your source cannot do (given the following).

Never mind the lack of vowels in the Hebrew alphabet that might alter the pronunciation: “Ni-ham,” “Nu-heem,” “Nehum”.

Why never mind the vowel pattern when that's part of the entire way that Semitic languages' root-and-pattern system works? I don't know Hebrew, but in Arabic (a related Semitic language), depending on the vowel pattern and the presence of any prefixes you could yield various verbs, nouns, and adjectives, e.g., kaatib 'writer', kitaab 'book', maktaba 'library', maktuba 'written', etc. This most definitely affects proper names, give how often they are derived from verbs or adjectives -- e.g., Muhammad literally means 'the praised one', from the same H-M-D root that yields hamd 'to praise' (I think technically 'he praised', since the citation form in Arabic dictionaries is the third person masculine singular), hamid 'one who praises', etc. Hamid and its feminine form Hamida are both also proper names.

So even while the vowel quality is variable (i.e., Egyptians or Lebanese having E or sometimes O, rather than A and U as you can find elsewhere), the pattern itself remains stable outside of cases of suppletion (the presence of an unrelated form with a different root from outside of the paradigm). The most you'll get is vowel deletion in certain inflected forms in the speech of users whose forms of Arabic developed under heavy pressure from previous native languages that allowed different syllable structures than Arabic does (e.g., the 'Berber' languages in North Africa, or Syriac in the Levantine countries). This is why Moroccan Arabic is pretty crazy compared to that of the Gulf, since the Berber languages are not very vowel heavy, so you can get tons of interesting consonant clusters that would probably be broken up by epenthetic vowels in other dialects. Witness names like M'hamed for Muhammed in Morocco and Algeria. This doesn't break the system at work (the underlying root is still H-M-D, not M-'-D or something), even though the resulting form looks different.

Also one of your source's suggestions, "Nu-heem" suggests a long vowel in the second syllable, which would thereby not be variable (since long vowels are indicated in writing by signs that can function as either long vowels or consonants, in this case long "ee" or y), so it's either in the actual inscriptions or not. You don't even really need to be able to read to understand that نحيم (nu-heem) is different than نحم (nuhim, with a short "i"). You can just look with your eyes. Hebrew, Aramaic, Arabic, Amharic, etc. all work this way (though the writing system of Amharic is very different, since its a syllabary rather than an alphabet, so it functions more like various Indic scripts in that each consonant base character carries an inherent vowel to form a syllable; they're not your "ABCs", they're your "Ha hu hi"s or whatever), since it's a basic principle of Semitic word formation.

The coincidence remains staggering.

It's really not staggering, but is a coincidence. Again, the reading Nahom would need to be phonologically motivated, not simply asserted due to its being matched up with the BOM by Mormon apologists.

In fact, there is a "Nahom" out there connected to a Semitic-speaking people, but it's not where it would need to be to back up the BOM story: it's the Ethiopian version of the OT prophet Nahum, and is still used by Ethiopians today as a proper name, e.g., Nahom Mesfin Tariku, the Ethiopian runner who participated in the summer Olympics in 2008 and 2012.

Are you going to tell us now that the Lehites came from Ethiopia? (The Habesha people who are the natives of the Ethiopian highlands did originally come from Yemen, but far too late for the BOM narrative, c. 1st century BC, and anyway definitely intermixed with local Cushite populations. That's why highland Ethiopians are black people but with very pronounced 'Semitic' features not seen in other populations in other parts of the country.)

Not only are these altars found in the right place, they date to the right time. If that’s not enough, Nahom itself appears associated with the Hebrew word for “mourning”, which is precisely why the Lehites were there. Nahom was one of the largest burial areas in ancient Southwestern Arabia,6 and the travelers were there to mourn the death of their beloved friend, Ishmael."

What Hebrew word for mourning? I looked it up, and apparently the Hebrew word for morning is אֵבֶל, which is pronounced "aval". That is transparently unrelated "nahom". What other word does the writer have in mind?

"Book of Mormon readers are well aware of a tribal group who claimed to descend from a son of King Zedekiah named Mulek. (Helaman 6:10; 8:21) Trouble is, history wasn’t aware of any “Prince Mulek”, let alone any children of King Zedekiah who would have survived the Babylonian massacre. And one who found allies and migrated to the New World? That’s what makes this seal so interesting. Mulek is easily an hypocoristic, or shortened, form of Malkiyahu, exactly as today we’d shorten Alexander to Alex or Nathaniel to Nate. Mulek may have also been mentioned in Jeremiah 38:6.10 This artifact is so small it could fit on your fingernail, yet its implications could be enormous."

Mulek looks suspiciously like someone who is trying to appropriately deface other names that exist in the Bible (or maybe trying to write the word for 'king'?), like the name of the Canaanite deity Moloch. (whose name comes from the common Semitic root for 'king').

So...'King King', then? :scratch:

Next time you post what you claim is compelling scientific evidence for the BOM it should actually be evidence, not conjecture specifically based on what can be made to align with the BOM.
 
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BigDaddy4

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de·fin·i·tive
/dəˈfinədiv/
Learn to pronounce

adjective
  1. 1.
    (of a conclusion or agreement) done or reached decisively and with authority.
    "a definitive diagnosis"
It is a conclusion but I can see that it is not an agreement between us. These five compelling archeological evidences have come to light in the past few years. Have you got and "proof" that the Book of Mormon is not true?
You "compelling" evidences are LDS sources, not very compelling at all. And definitely not definitive. And, @dzheremi demolishes your "evidence" presented.

Proof of BoM not true? LOL. JS is a false prophet is all the proof that is needed!
 
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He is the way

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You "compelling" evidences are LDS sources, not very compelling at all. And definitely not definitive. And, @dzheremi demolishes your "evidence" presented.

Proof of BoM not true? LOL. JS is a false prophet is all the proof that is needed!
Joseph Smith is not a false prophet. He gave us the prophetic word of wisdom, prophesized of the civil war, healed the sick, dictated the Book of Mormon, and many other marvelous and prophetic things. I know Joseph Smith and I know he was indeed a prophet of God.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Joseph Smith is not a false prophet. He gave us the prophetic word of wisdom, prophesized of the civil war, healed the sick, dictated the Book of Mormon, and many other marvelous and prophetic things. I know Joseph Smith and I know he was indeed a prophet of God.
You know Joseph Smith? Are you channeling his spirit or something? Do you guys speak in Reformed Egyptian? Believe what you want about him, he's still a false prophet who wrote a fairy tale based on nothing but his own imagination.
 
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dzheremi

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Joseph Smith is not a false prophet. He gave us the prophetic word of wisdom, prophesized of the civil war, healed the sick, dictated the Book of Mormon, and many other marvelous and prophetic things. I know Joseph Smith and I know he was indeed a prophet of God.

You can bare your testimony all you want -- it will not change the fact that high-ranking Mormon leaders have known for at least the past century that your supposedly miraculous, revelatory, and historically accurate book is in fact nothing of the sort. In fact, in that context, the attempt to turn this thread into a testimony meeting just looks desperate, like you're repeating the things and people you 'know' not out of conviction, but to stop the doubts that you actually know have good reason for being there from coming to the surface. "I know Joseph Smith and I know he was indeed a true prophet of God" feels a lot better on the brain than "I know Native Americans did not descend from populations of Jews who came to the Americas from Jerusalem", since the latter is dispassionately scientifically disprovable (while there are no DNA studies or the like to disprove JS' claims to prophethood, since that is not heritable).
 
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Dale

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John Dehlin interviews Shannon Caldwell Montez on the Mormon meetings of 1922 with B.H. Roberts, wherein it was discussed that the BOM does not have a historical/real world basis.


Synopsis as required by the new video posting rules (and because it is a very long video): It was discussed at gatherings of LDS church leaders and notables held in 1922 that the BOM has several historical problems that basically make it impossible for any thinking person (including thinking Mormons, as all at the meetings were) to claim that the book is historical. This was openly recognized to be so at the time, and only in subsequent decades have Mormon apologetics taken to dismissing such findings as 'anti-Mormon'.



This is a good video. It shows us that Mormons are known to have entered into new plural marriages for decades after the 1890 Manifesto where the church supposedly banned them, at least in this world. It shows that the LDS church had these marriages performed in Mexico because they weren't being prosecuted there and it was out of sight to the American authorities and the American public. It shows how belief in plural marriage led to adultery in some cases.

One highly educated member of the LDS hierarchy stopped believing in the Book of Mormon after touring Aztec and Mayan sites in Mexico. Joseph Smith claimed that a monotheistic civilization as advanced as the Middle East had been in OT times had existed in the western hemisphere. In reality, the largest and most sophisticated buildings in north and central America were obviously built by polytheists. They were built by pagans practicing human sacrifice.
 
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If this proves the Book of Mormon is wrong then modern science also proves the Bible is wrong. That being said I believe that both the Bible and the Book of Mormon are true and modern science is wrong.


I hope I'm not changing the subject, but there is solid evidence for King David, certainly an important figure in the OT.

The Tel Dan Inscription: The First Historical Evidence of King David from the Bible
Tel Dan inscription references the “House of David”

Biblical Archaeology Society Staff May 02, 2019




Where is there similar evidence for any of the figures in the Book of Mormon?


Link
The Tel Dan Inscription: The First Historical Evidence of King David from the Bible
 
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He is the way

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You know Joseph Smith? Are you channeling his spirit or something? Do you guys speak in Reformed Egyptian? Believe what you want about him, he's still a false prophet who wrote a fairy tale based on nothing but his own imagination.
Yes I do know Joseph Smith through the writings of my great great grandfather and his sister. At least they knew Joseph Smith.
 
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He is the way

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You can bare your testimony all you want -- it will not change the fact that high-ranking Mormon leaders have known for at least the past century that your supposedly miraculous, revelatory, and historically accurate book is in fact nothing of the sort. In fact, in that context, the attempt to turn this thread into a testimony meeting just looks desperate, like you're repeating the things and people you 'know' not out of conviction, but to stop the doubts that you actually know have good reason for being there from coming to the surface. "I know Joseph Smith and I know he was indeed a true prophet of God" feels a lot better on the brain than "I know Native Americans did not descend from populations of Jews who came to the Americas from Jerusalem", since the latter is dispassionately scientifically disprovable (while there are no DNA studies or the like to disprove JS' claims to prophethood, since that is not heritable).
Science has NOT disproven the Book of Mormon. They do not even have DNA from some of the indigenous people from south America:

"The “no contact” policy is modeled on the approach pioneered in the 1980s by Brazil, which harbors at least 27, and perhaps as many as 70, isolated indigenous communities, the most of any country in the world. Both Peru and Brazil have created networks of forest reserves and parklands to shield these tribes from the exploitation and devastating illnesses that often accompany the arrival of Western civilization in the backwoods. Without medical care and rigorous follow-up, previously unexposed indigenous populations can quickly succumb to contagions, such as measles and the flu. Epidemiologists and historians now believe that epidemics unwittingly unleashed by Europeans played a decisive role in their conquest of the New World."

From: Some Isolated Tribes in the Amazon Are Initiating Contact
 
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dzheremi

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Science has NOT disproven the Book of Mormon. They do not even have DNA from some of the indigenous people from south America:

"The “no contact” policy is modeled on the approach pioneered in the 1980s by Brazil, which harbors at least 27, and perhaps as many as 70, isolated indigenous communities, the most of any country in the world. Both Peru and Brazil have created networks of forest reserves and parklands to shield these tribes from the exploitation and devastating illnesses that often accompany the arrival of Western civilization in the backwoods. Without medical care and rigorous follow-up, previously unexposed indigenous populations can quickly succumb to contagions, such as measles and the flu. Epidemiologists and historians now believe that epidemics unwittingly unleashed by Europeans played a decisive role in their conquest of the New World."

From: Some Isolated Tribes in the Amazon Are Initiating Contact

Since when have Mormon apologetics ever claimed that these isolated tribes in Brazil and Peru specifically are evidence of BOM people?

Sounds to me like you're just getting desperate as the claims made by your religion are continuously proven to be false. Kind of like how the introduction to the BOM used to say that the people described in it were the principle ancestors of the Native Americans, then was changed to say that they were among the ancestors, so as to avoid making too strong a claim when there is absolutely no evidence to support it.

What theory will you be forced to come up with next once it is definitively proven that these isolated tribes are not the descendants of ancient Hebrews either? Maybe you'll start looking into native populations elsewhere with the idea that since the descendants of Native Americans came from the ancient Middle East (obviously!), then every place humanity's ancestors may have passed through between Jerusalem and upstate New York is fair game. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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Yes I do know Joseph Smith through the writings of my great great grandfather and his sister. At least they knew Joseph Smith.
The more you post, the more desperate you sound to make Joseph Smith's fairy tale believeable. Whatever you construct in the theater of your mind to be true does not hold up as reality outside of your insulated bubble. History and science are not on your side.
 
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