LDS What distinct Mormon doctrines DO come from the Bible and/or BoM? pretty much none of them?

[He is the way]

Sort of an "if you love Me than have all the wives you want and don't bother with whether that is adultery or not, that shows how much you love Me"

being equivocated with

"if you love Me - sacrifice your only son as sign that you would sacrifice all for me"??

You're telling us that those two things look like a very similar request - to Mormons?

1. Because to the rest of us - they look waaayyyyy different.
2. And in the second case God would not allow Abraham to actually do it ... not even once. (It is the actual Bible example so then legit)

========================================================







"Plural marriage was difficult for all involved. For Joseph Smith’s wife Emma, it was an excruciating ordeal."

Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo

======================

Is it your claim that merely having plural wives "documents" in the house and no actual connection/relation to those so-called wives... made it "excruciating" for Emma Smith??

Where was "The test"?? .. "having the papers" that God called "abominable" in Jacob 2 -- as if you had done the abomination??

Was Abraham aware of God's commandment thou shalt not kill? Yet God commanded him to sacrifice his son. This was clearly a test to see if Abraham would do what God asked of him.

 

[BobRyan]

Was Abraham aware of God's commandment thou shalt not kill?

Indeed a huge sacrifice - one that God did not allow him to follow through on.

But you suggest that an equal test could be
"Hey go do drugs as your sacrifice" or "Hey go commit adultery as your sacrifice" --- next it could be "hey rob this or that store as your sacrifice". What kind of reasoning is that?

That's an endless supply of equivocating and conflating going on there with almost no attention to details in the case of Abraham.

Meanwhile the actual BoM says that God was sooooo not-ok with what BoM calls the "abomination" of polygamy that He sent Jews out of Israel and to America to escape it. Only to end up with Joseph Smith declaring "polygamy for all... as a test"??

 

[He is the way]

Indeed a huge sacrifice - one that God did not allow him to follow through on.

But you suggest that an equal test could be
"Hey go do drugs as your sacrifice" or "Hey go commit adultery as your sacrifice" --- next it could be "hey rob this or that store as your sacrifice". What kind of reasoning is that?

That's an endless supply of equivocating and conflating going on there with almost no attention to details in the case of Abraham.

Meanwhile the actual BoM says that God was sooooo not-ok with what BoM calls the "abomination" of polygamy that He sent Jews out of Israel and to America to escape it. Only to end up with Joseph Smith declaring "polygamy for all... as a test"??

There were times when God allowed polygamy:

(Old Testament | 2 Samuel 12:8)

8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

It may be allowed in the future:

(Old Testament | Isaiah 4:1)

1 AND in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

I know that God did ask Joseph Smith to take other wives. I do believe it was a test and that none of those marriages were ever consummated. Some of them may have been only sealings.

 

[BobRyan]

There were times when God allowed polygamy:

(Old Testament | 2 Samuel 12:8)

8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

Indeed the Bible did not condemn it as explicitly as did the BoM flat out condemn it. Though the NT does flat out condemn it for church leaders and for all Christians that follow Christ's instruction for marriage.

Talking about making a spiritual wife out of Uriah the Hittite's wife, and condemning David for it? this is your defense?

God's law for kings
Deut 17: 17 He shall not multiply wives for himself, or else his heart will turn away; nor shall he greatly increase silver and gold for himself.

It may be allowed in the future:

(Old Testament | Isaiah 4:1)

1 AND in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

Isaiah 4 is God's curse saying that all the men would be killed and the 7 women would merely want to have the family name of the few remaining men left in Israel.

I know that God did ask Joseph Smith to take other wives. .

Which BoM says is an abomination and which caused Emma to suffer even by Mormon standards.

Meanwhile the NT says that no man can lead the church unless he meets the basics ... the very basics "husband of one wife" -- Titus 1

So then BoM calls it "abomination" and the NT flat out condemns any Christian leader that tries it -- and your response is to compare it to God stopping Abraham from murdering his son.

Interesting.

"To the LAW and to the testimony if they speak not according to this Word they have no light" Isiah 8:20

Gal 1
8 "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"

 

[BobRyan]

Interesting that this comes up in relation to the title - which is "what mormon doctrines come from the Bible and BoM" and polygamy is a great example of one that the BoM calls "abomination"..

so ... how is that helping?

 

[BobRyan]

What source are you using for this claim?

Jacob 1:15

[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

=====================================
Would it be fair to say that LDS members don't actually read all of the BoM?

Jacob 2:24-29 states:

24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.

25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

[31] For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
[32] And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[33] For they shall not lead away captive the daughters of my people because of their tenderness, save I shall visit them with a sore curse, even unto destruction; for they shall not commit whoredoms, like unto them of old, saith the Lord of Hosts.
[34] And now behold, my brethren, ye know that these commandments were given to our father, Lehi; wherefore, ye have known them before; and ye have come unto great condemnation; for ye have done these things which ye ought not to have done.
[35] Behold, ye have done greater iniquities than the Lamanites, our brethren. Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds.

=========================== begin quote D&C

Doctrine and Cov chpt 42:22 49:15-16

42:22
22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else.

49:15-16
15 And again, verily I say unto you, that whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God, for marriage is ordained of God unto man.
16 Wherefore, it is lawful that he should have one wife, and they twain shall be one flesh, and all this that the earth might answer the end of its creation;
17 And that it might be filled with the measure of man, according to his creation before the world was made.

I know that God did ask Joseph Smith to take other wives.

Jacob 2:24-29 states:
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

Such an abomination that the BoM says the entire Mormon story had to be created - calling Israel out of the middle east to get them away from such abomination.

And then "some spirit" tells Smith to get right back into it? I wonder what spirit that would be?

"To the LAW and to the testimony if they speak not according to this Word they have no light" Isiah 8:20

Gal 1
8 "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"

 

[BobRyan]

Are Mormons aware of the Protestant teaching on "Sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and practice?

If you have heard of it -- do you agree with it?

If you do not agree with it -- then why not?

 

[He is the way]

Indeed the Bible did not condemn it as explicitly as did the BoM flat out condemn it. Though the NT does flat out condemn it for church leaders and for all Christians that follow Christ's instruction for marriage.

Talking about making a spiritual wife out of Uriah the Hittite's wife, and condemning David for it? this is your defense?

God's law for kings
Deut 17: 17 He shall not multiply wives for himself, or else his heart will turn away; nor shall he greatly increase silver and gold for himself.






Isaiah 4 is God's curse saying that all the men would be killed and the 7 women would merely want to have the family name of the few remaining men left in Israel.



Which BoM says is an abomination and which caused Emma to suffer even by Mormon standards.

Meanwhile the NT says that no man can lead the church unless he meets the basics ... the very basics "husband of one wife" -- Titus 1

So then BoM calls it "abomination" and the NT flat out condemns any Christian leader that tries it -- and your response is to compare it to God stopping Abraham from murdering his son.

Interesting.

"To the LAW and to the testimony if they speak not according to this Word they have no light" Isiah 8:20

Gal 1
8 "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"

Eventually we will find out who is preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ and who isn't. Titus 1 is NOT about prophets of the church, it is about bishops which are to be blameless and the husband of one wife. God's church should be of this manner:

(New Testament | Ephesians 4:11 - 13)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

 

[BobRyan]

There were times when God allowed polygamy:

(Old Testament | 2 Samuel 12:8)

8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

Indeed the Bible did not condemn it as explicitly as did the BoM flat out condemn it. Though the NT does flat out condemn it for church leaders and for all Christians that follow Christ's instruction for marriage.

Talking about making a spiritual wife out of Uriah the Hittite's wife, and condemning David for it? this is your defense?

God's law for kings
Deut 17: 17 He shall not multiply wives for himself, or else his heart will turn away; nor shall he greatly increase silver and gold for himself.

It may be allowed in the future:

(Old Testament | Isaiah 4:1)

1 AND in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

Isaiah 4 is God's curse saying that all the men would be killed and the 7 women would merely want to have the family name of the few remaining men left in Israel.

I know that God did ask Joseph Smith to take other wives. .

Which BoM says is an abomination and which caused Emma to suffer even by Mormon standards.

Meanwhile the NT says that no man can lead the church unless he meets the basics ... the very basics "husband of one wife" -- Titus 1

So then BoM calls it "abomination" and the NT flat out condemns any Christian leader that tries it -- and your response is to compare it to God stopping Abraham from murdering his son.

Interesting.

"To the LAW and to the testimony if they speak not according to this Word they have no light" Isiah 8:20

Gal 1
8 "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! 9 As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"

Eventually we will find out who is preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ and who isn't.

"Eventually"??

As it turns out - we already have Bibles! No need to wait.
And in fact even the BoM calls polygamy "abomination" to God - for which he demanded that some of Israel leave the middle east and head to the Americas - so great was the abomination.

It just does not get any easier than that.

Titus 1 is NOT about prophets of the church, it is about bishops

It is about anyone that wishes to be put in the role of leading the church and in the case of LDS Joseph Smith was most certainly leading the church.

we have a prophet in our church in the 1800's and that prophet was not allowed to tell people to live in rebellion against the moral law of God and still claim to "pass the Bible test of a prophet"... because the Bible does not approve that sort of "prophet"

"which are to be blameless and the husband of one wife. " is the command for Elders in the church and in fact any man who is in a position to lead the church.


Eph 4
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

And "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"This IS the Love of God that we KEEP His commandments" 1 John 5:2-3
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12
Where the "First commandment with a promise" is the 5th commandment Eph 6:1-2 in that still-valid unit of Ten.

 

[BobRyan]

Can we get an answer to this?

Are Mormons aware of the Protestant teaching on "Sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and practice?

If you have heard of it -- do you agree with it?

If you do not agree with it -- then why not?

 

[BobRyan]

Eventually we will find out who is preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ and who isn't. :

Can we get an answer to this?

1. What are the significant/key/distinctive doctrines of the Mormon church? (Short list please - if possible) -- that DO come from the BoM or Bible and do not need other books (the ones written by Joseph Smith) to sustain them?

2. Are they all stated in either the Book of Mormon or the Bible? Or do you need one of Joseph Smith's books to find/define/support them?

3. What doctrines do Mormons hold to - that they claim are not distinctives for Mormons but rather are in common with all Christians?

4. If all the books written by Joseph Smith were deleted - (assuming the book of Mormon had some other author since it claims to be written by someone other than Joseph Smith) -- because "translating a book is not the same thing as authoring it", if all Smith's books were deleted what doctrines of Mormons would not survive? Doctrines that could no longer be held by the LDS church because they come from Smith's writings?

As I understand it - Mormons claim that in their early history all their missionaries had was the Bible and the book of Mormon -- so then they could not have held to any doctrine that is not found in one of those two books.

 

[He is the way]

Indeed the Bible did not condemn it as explicitly as did the BoM flat out condemn it. Though the NT does flat out condemn it for church leaders and for all Christians that follow Christ's instruction for marriage.

Talking about making a spiritual wife out of Uriah the Hittite's wife, and condemning David for it? this is your defense?

Actually the fact that the Book of Mormon condemns polygamy more than the Bible is greater proof that the Book of Mormon is indeed from God and not something that Joseph Smith dreamed up. And my defense is that God gave David the wives of his master. Was Jacob under condemnation for having more than one wife? No he wasn't and neither was Abraham. God praised Abraham for doing everything he was commanded to do. That includes taking Hagar to wife. There is NO conclusive evidence that Joseph Smith consummated any marriage other than to his wife Emma.

I don't understand what you mean by "spiritual wife". What do you mean about David having Uriah's wife as a spiritual wife? David was condemned by God for his adultery and the apparent murder of Uriah.

 

[BobRyan]

Actually the fact that the Book of Mormon condemns polygamy more than the Bible is greater proof that the Book of Mormon is indeed from God

No it is not a proof for the inspiration of the Book of Mormon.
1. I can make some pretty strong statements against polygamy and yet not be an inspired prophet - just as millions of Christians have done over the years.

2. If standing against polygamy were the great test - then Smith failed it big time.

3. BoM admits that it is "abomination" yet Mormons not only demanded it for their prophet but also all their men.. prophets or not. That would be Wholesale abomination according to the BoM, and the bible condemns it for all Christian leaders in Titus 1.

And my defense is that God gave David the wives of his master.

1. Which David did not claim as his own wives according to the Bible.
2. Which the BoM specifically condemns as abomination - specifically in regard to David and Solomon. The whole reason we even have the BoM according to the BoM itself.

BoM
Jacob 2:24-29 states:
24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.

You would think that a Mormon reader of Jacob 2 would be even MORE opposed to polygamy than Christians who only read the Bible. Yet here you are trying to defend it in the NT age??

3. Which is not a claim made in the NT - rather the NT condemns it as we see in Titus 1.
4. (And as far as I know - the Mormon church now condemns it as being evil as well)

 

[He is the way]

No it is not a proof for the inspiration of the Book of Mormon.
1. I can make some pretty strong statements against polygamy and yet not be an inspired prophet - just as millions of Christians have done over the years.

2. If standing against polygamy were the great test - then Smith failed it big time.

3. BoM admits that it is "abomination" yet Mormons not only demanded it for their prophet but also all their men.. prophets or not. That would be Wholesale abomination according to the BoM, and the bible condemns it for all Christian leaders in Titus 1.



1. Which David did not claim as his own wives according to the Bible.
2. Which the BoM specifically condemns as abomination - specifically in regard to David and Solomon. The whole reason we even have the BoM according to the BoM itself.



You would think that a Mormon reader of Jacob 2 would be even MORE opposed to polygamy than Christians who only read the Bible. Yet here you are trying to defend it in the NT age??

3. Which is not a claim made in the NT - rather the NT condemns it as we see in Titus 1.
4. (And as far as I know - the Mormon church now condemns it as being evil as well)

You said: "1. Which David did not claim as his own wives according to the Bible."

Actually we know from the Bible that David had many children by his many wives. David’s firstborn Amnon was by his wife Ahinoam. Absalom was a son of David’s wife Maakah. Adonijah, David’s fourth son, was by his wife Haggith. Shephatiah, was born to his wife Abital. Ithream is of David’s wife Eglah. More information on his wives at 1 Chronicles 3

What did you mean by "spiritual wife"?

 

[BobRyan]

You said: "1. Which David did not claim as his own wives according to the Bible."

Actually we know from the Bible that David had many children by his many wives. David’s firstborn Amnon was by his wife Ahinoam. Absalom was a son of David’s wife Maakah. Adonijah, David’s fourth son, was by his wife Haggith. Shephatiah, was born to his wife Abital. Ithream is of David’s wife Eglah. More information on his wives at 1 Chronicles 3

1. None of them were the wives of Saul.
2. God's law for kings
Deut 17: 17 He shall not multiply wives for himself, or else his heart will turn away; nor shall he greatly increase silver and gold for himself.
3. Smith was not a king, was not David and God never gave prophets or kings or anyone the command to have multiple wives.
4. The BoM agrees with what I am saying to the the extent it claims this is why God was sending all those Israelites out of Palestine and over to the Americas according to the BoM.

 

[BobRyan]

There were times when God allowed polygamy:

2 Samuel 12:8)
8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.

...
Talking about making a spiritual wife out of Uriah the Hittite's wife, and condemning David for it? this is your defense?

God's law for kings
Deut 17: 17 He shall not multiply wives for himself, or else his heart will turn away; nor shall he greatly increase silver and gold for himself.

What did you mean by "spiritual wife"?

I was asking for clarification about your use of 2 Sam 12 where David is being condemned by Nathan the prophet. Was Bathsheba being considered a spiritual wife? It does not appear that David's initial intent was to marry her or that she should have a baby.

 

[Peter1000]

Do you hear what you are saying?? you are discussing the non-Bible topic of "translating a document from a hat"..

Please be serious.

That is one way he translated the BOM, seriously. If it is a non-biblical topic of translating a documnet from a hat, then everything you do is non-biblical. It is non-biblical for you to read a book, so do you stop reading books except for the bible. It is non-biblical to go to the swimming pool, so do you stop going? It is non-biblical to drive a car. Do you now stop driving a car?

IOW, of course it was non-biblical for JS to translate documents, no matter how he translated them. How could it be biblical in 1826?

It was non-biblical for William Tyndal to translate the bible into English, so you better stop reading his translation, and go to the originals. Oops, there are no originals, so you need to stop reading any non-biblical bible except the originals. How is that going to work?

 

[BobRyan]

That is one way he translated the BOM

Was his "gift of translation" defective?

If it is a non-biblical topic of translating a document from a hat, then everything you do is non-biblical.

The detail you are missing is that in 1 Cor 12 we have all the gifts of the Spirit listed - and "gift of translating one document to another -- from a hat" is not one of them.

IOW, of course it was non-biblical for JS to translate documents, no matter how he translated them.

Turns out - people translate from one document to another all the time.

They typically don't have to "hide the document" that they are translating from and "just produce the one translated to" then claim that as proof they are a prophet.

I am guessing we both would agree on that point.

 

[He is the way]

...
Talking about making a spiritual wife out of Uriah the Hittite's wife, and condemning David for it? this is your defense?

God's law for kings
Deut 17: 17 He shall not multiply wives for himself, or else his heart will turn away; nor shall he greatly increase silver and gold for himself.



I was asking for clarification about your use of 2 Sam 12 where David is being condemned by Nathan the prophet. Was Bathsheba being considered a spiritual wife? It does not appear that David's initial intent was to marry her or that she should have a baby.

The scripture you keep quoting Deut 17: 17 is about the king who is not to amass wealth (horses, wives, silver, and gold) and he shall read and keep the commands. It does not say he can have no silver, no horses, no wives, or no gold. I am assuming that David and Bathsheba were married after the death of Uriah. I still do not understand the term "spiritual wife". What is a spiritual wife? How do you know that David did not have children with the wives of Saul?

 

[Ran77]

Jacob 1:15

[15] And now it came to pass that the people of Nephi, under the reign of the second king, began to grow hard in their hearts, and indulge themselves somewhat in wicked practices, such as like unto David of old desiring many wives and concubines, and also Solomon, his son.

Allow me to remind everyone of what prompted this response.


BobRyan, "But it says the reason they came to America is to flee from the horrid sin of polygamy that had been setup by David and Solomon. Interesting how that "doctrine" did not get passed on."

Nothing in the verse you provided states or indicates in any way that "They" came to America to flee polygamy. That is something that you have apparently made up. I mean, it doesn't even make sense. The claim is polygamy is the reason they came to America and then you use a verse that talks about the reign of the second king. This is not even the group that came over. This is talking about events that happened to the people who were, for the most part, born in the new land.

There is a complete disconnect between any part of your claim and what is in the verse you quoted.

Would it be fair to say that LDS members don't actually read all of the BoM?

I speak only for myself. I don't care what the rest of the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints do, in regards to this forum. So, it really isn't a matter that has any relevance to our discussion.

What concerns me more is your posting a verse that has nothing to do with your claim, making me wonder if you actually read that verse. The one verse you used to make a point that wasn't accurate at all.