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Featured LDS LDS folk, a question for you

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by drstevej, Apr 2, 2019.

  1. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this for the most part. What books are you reading to come up with your doctrine about Jesus?
     
  2. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    The same as His Father. Jesus is the Creator God, He created everything. That's why He is equal to Him. I asked you first.

    Php_2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    Strong's Concordance
    morphé: form, shape
    Original Word: μορφή, ῆς, ἡ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
    Transliteration: morphé
    Phonetic Spelling: (mor-fay')
    Definition: form, shape
    Usage: form, shape, outward appearance.
    HELPS Word-studies
    3444 morphḗ – properly, form (outward expression) that embodies essential (inner) substance so that the form is in complete harmony with the inner essence.
    Thayer's Greek Lexicon
    STRONGS NT 3444: μορφή

    μορφή, μορφῆς, ἡ (from root signifying 'to lay hold of', 'seize' (cf. German Fassung); Fick, Part i., p. 174; Vanicek, p. 719), from Homer down, the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance: children are said to reflect ψυχῆς τέ καί μορφῆς ὁμοιότητα (of their parents), 4 Macc. 15:3 (4); ἐφανερώθη ἐν ἑτέρα μορφή, Mark 16:12; ἐν μορφή Θεοῦ ὑπάρχων, Philippians 2:6; μορφήν δούλου λαβών, Philippians 2:7; — this whole passage (as I have shown more fully in the Zeitschr. f. wissensch. Theol. for 1873, pp. 33ff, with which compare the different view given by Holsten in the Jahrbb. f. protest. Theol. for 1875, p. 449ff) is to be explained as follows: who, although (formerly when he was λόγος ἄσαρκος) "he bore the form (in which he appeared to the inhabitants of heaven) of God (the sovereign, opposed to μορφή δούλου), yet did not think that this equality with God was to be eagerly clung to or retained (see ἁρπαγμός, 2), but emptied himself of it (see κενόω, 1) so as to assume the form of a servant, in that he became like unto men (for angels also are δοῦλοι τοῦ Θεοῦ, Revelation 19:10; Revelation 22:8f) and was found in fashion as a man".
     
  3. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    HeartenedHeart says,

    You have certainly done some homework on this scripture from Peter: I can only say, let me explain to you our interpretation of this scripture.
    1 Peter 3:18-20 King James Version (KJV)
    18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.
    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

    Explanation:
    18 ....being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit, means:
    Jesus's flesh body slept in the grave, his 'spirit/ghost' was alive and active, being 'quickened' by the Spirit. IOW the Holy Spirit released Jesus's 'personal spirit/ghost' from his body, being alive eternally, and not to suffer death.
    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.
    'By which' means to us that it is in this 'spirit/ghost' form that Jesus went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

    IOW it was not the Holy Spirit that went to preach to the people in the days of Noah, it was the personal 'spirit/ghost' of Jesus that went into the spirit world and preached unto the 'spirits/ghosts' of the people who had died at the time of Noah, and their personal 'spirits/ghosts were in a spirit world prison at the time of Jesus's death.

    Jesus also told the thief on the cross that that day he(Jesus) would be with him in 'paradise'.

    We also know that 'paradise' is not heaven. This is how we know this:
    Jesus died on the cross, his flesh body was laid in the tomb. His 'spirit/ghost' released from his flesh body and went with the thief to 'paradise'. Then Jesus's 'spirit/ghost' went to the other part of the sprit world and preached to the 'spirits/ghosts' in the spirit prison.

    This all took about 3 days and then he was resurrected (his 'spirit/ghost' came back into his flesh body) and appeared to Mary. (See John 20:17) Jesus told Mary not to touch him (and this is the important part) for he had not ascended unto his Father.
    So even though Jesus had gone to 'paradise' in the spirit world, he had not gone to a place where the Father lives, which is 'heaven'. So the 'paradise' in the spirit world, and 'heaven' can not be the same place.

    So David, when he died, his flesh body was laid in the sepulcher, but his 'spirit/ghost' was quickened and went into the world of spirits, where he awaits the resurrection of the flesh body and the spirit. His condition is the same today as it was the second he died. He has not ascended to heaven and will not until the resurrection, at which time he will be allowed into heaven, having been forgiven of his sins by the Lord.
     
  4. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    You say, I asked you first. What did you ask me first?

    You did not answer my question: What form is Jesus in before his earthly ministry? And you tell me: the same as the Father. So what form were they in before Jesus's earthly ministry?
     
  5. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    That would be post #219

    In response to this:

    Joh_4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    New International Version
    God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth."

    New Living Translation
    For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.”

    English Standard Version
    God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

    Berean Study Bible
    God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

    Berean Literal Bible
    God is Spirit, and it behooves those worshiping Him to worship in spirit and truth."

    New American Standard Bible
    "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."


    pneuma: wind, spirit
    Original Word: πνεῦμα, ατος, τό
    Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
    Transliteration: pneuma
    Phonetic Spelling: (pnyoo'-mah)
    Definition: wind, spirit
    Usage: wind, breath, spirit.

    God the Father and God the Son were both Spirit---which nobody really understands nor can anyone define this. It is not some sort of "lesser" form that Jesus was to overcome and become greater than after His resurrection. Jesus was at the top of the food chain--for want of better terminology--alongside God the Father. He and His Son were one---and unlike some who believe that God the Father can only give birth to some sort of thing that is far less less than His own form---Jesus was exactly of the same substance as His Father. Jesus lowered Himself to become human in order to save us. But He retains His divinity and His humanity throughout eternity--that was the price He paid for our salvation. He took 2 steps down to become human, for we were made lower than the angels. What His glorified body is exactly we do not know and won't until after His return. Jesus has not acquired a more godly form now, He is still human, but is as we will be which is glorified which nobody understands yet.
    But nowhere in scripture does it say that Jesus came here in order to achieve a higher form than He had----JS has that backwards as he does most everything.
     
  6. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

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    In the LDS eisegesis, yes, they do.

    Leaving the text as it reads, but re-interpreting what it states is not allowing the text to stand as it is.

    This is what I mean, by the above responses.

    The Son, was not merely in "the form of God", for if you notice He was not a "servant" until taking on the "form of a servant" (flesh of mankind), which means that the phrase "form of God", means He already was eternally God, as John 1:1, "the Word was God", as Genesis 1:7, "God made" says, and so on.

    Proverbs 8, again declares that the Son was eternally by the side of the Father, "as one brought up with him" (Pro. 8:30). In Genesis 17-19, of which we have already spoken of, you acknowledged that the Son was there specifically called "The LORD" (JEHOVAH; Gen. 19:24), which previously Abraham said, "the Judge of all the Earth" (Gen. 18:25). When the Son met Moses at the burning bush, the Son said of Himself, "I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" (Exo. 3:6), and "I am come down" (Exo. 3:8), and "I AM THAT I AM ... I AM" (Exo. 3:14), etc. You also acknowledged that the Son was in Genesis 1.

    The name Jesus, means JEHOVAH is salvation (H3444), see Gen. 49:18.

    The only issue is that the Son had "full glory" before taking upon Himself the form of a servant, as Jesus so says:

    Joh_17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

    Read Phil 2 carefully.

    Yes, but being "one", that is to say "at-one-ment" with God, in His character, does not grant the person of mankind the status or nature of Deity. We will always be finite creations of the Creator, JEHOVAH Elohiym, who alone is "immortal", having "life" within, being "Life" itself. We will always be deriving our life from God, since we always borrow life from God. God borrows life from no one:

    Joh_11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

    No creature could says that, and it not be blasphemy. Only Deity can say that and it not be blasphemy.

    Jesus was not merely "like God" in character, for Jesus is and ever has been the "express image" (Heb. 1:2) of His Father, and thus is not merely like God (Deity), but actually is God (Deity), just not the Person of the Father.
     
  7. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

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    Genesis to Revelation. In other words, the books of the Bible, and I also read the SoP/ToJ in submission to scripture, as Isa. 8:20 says I ought.

    All doctrine that I believe, or practice, I am able to fully articulate from scripture (KJB).
     
  8. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

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    I already know what the LDS teach on the state of the dead. It is in error, and is ultimately spiritualism, not only allowing direct access by satan, but promoting his belief system from Gen. 3:4.

    Moreover, it is a direct contradiction to the everlasting Gospel itself. How so?

    The LDS theology claims that the soul/spirit is immortal and cannot die (and worse is eternal), which is in direct contradiction to Eze. 18:4,20, but more than this, the theology immortalizes the 'old man of sin', since it cannot truly die by the logical outcome of said spiritualism. In effect, the LDS theology (and not merely them alone) have immortalized sin.

    They tell me that the soul/spirit cannot die, and is immortal, then so goes the 'old man of sin', for 'spirit' is that which is of the 'mind/heart' as numerous scriptures declare:

    Job 34:14-15; Exo. 35:21; Deut. 2:30; Jos. 5:1; Psa. 34:18, 51:10,17, 77:6, 78:8, 143:4; Pro. 15:13, 17:22; Ecc. 1:17; Isa. 57:15, 65:14; Eze. 11:19, 18:31, 21:17, 36:26; Mar. 2:8; Rom. 2:29; Heb. 4:12; 1 Pet. 3:4.

    And thus the "spirit" of man, the "heart" of man is connected with reasoning and thoughts, 1 Chronicles 28:9; Matthew 9:4; Luke 2:35, 5:22, 24:38; Romans 2:15 and so on. These things cease in death:

    His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4

    And this is how the dead "know" "not anything" and there is no longer any emotion, knowledge, wisdom, etc:

    For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:5

    Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Ecclesiastes 9:6

    Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. Ecclesiastes 9:10

    And they cannot "know", nor "perceive":

    His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them. Job 14:21
     
  9. He is the way

    He is the way Well-Known Member

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    After death the body can no longer hear, speak, or think. You have quoted a lot of verses about the body, but what about the scriptures about the spirit?
    (New Testament | Matthew 17:3)

    3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
    (New Testament | Luke 16:22 - 24)

    22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
    23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
    24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
    (Old Testament | Judges 15:19)

    19 But God clave an hollow place that was in the jaw, and there came water thereout; and when he had drunk, his spirit came again, and he revived:
    (Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:7)

    7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
    (Old Testament | Genesis 25:8)

    8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

    His people were his ancestors.

    (Old Testament | Genesis 49:33)

    33 And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people.
    (New Testament | Matthew 27:50)

    50 ¶ Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

    There are too many to list
     
  10. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    mmksparbud says,

    I do not believe that you would find this doctrine in the bible. Jesus saves us but the price for saving us is he has to retain his humanity for all eternity. Even normal humans will not retain their humanity through all eternity. Once we are resurrected, our humanity gives way to immortality. Our weaknesses give way to indestructible, our frailties give way to exaltation and we have bodies of flesh and bone and spirit, but we are not normal humans any more. We in fact could be called supernatural humans.

    So you think the God that created everything out of nothing, cannot even change his form to what he
    wants.

    BTW the bible tells us that Jesus, at the present time is in the express image of the Father's person.
    Hebrews 1 King James Version (KJV)
    1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
    3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person...

    I have strong biblical grounds to stand on when I say that Jesus is in form, just like his Father is. They are made of the same substance, which is resurrected flesh and bone and spirit.
     
  11. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    The bible. Everything I quote you is from the bible.

    Jesus's progress from spirit to human form to resurrected flesh and bone and spirit is well documented in the bible.
     
  12. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    Yes we retain our humanity--it is however, given back to us to what we were originally intended to be---as Adam and Eve were on the first day they were created. God does not say He will turn us into some other life form, but glorify the ones He created. Jesus retains His humanity but He was God before the incarnation and remains as such and is of a far greater level of humanity than we can achieve. Yes, Jesus is the express image of God the Father, for He was God with Him before the incarnation and He retains that. We never were and never will be. Let go of JS and cling to Jesus through His Holy Spirit and you will hold on to the Father. JS offers no hope of salvation or truth.
     
  13. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    If by 'spiritualism' you are saying that we try to communicate with the spirits of the dead, you are on the wrong track. Just because we believe that the 'spirit' is eternal and lives on after the flesh body is laid in the grave, it does not mean that we are about doing Ouija boards, and seances and such to try to connect with the spirits of the dead. Please.

    Therefore since we do not do these things, we certainly do not allow access by satan, and we do not promote his belief system in any way.

    The flesh/mortal body does indeed die and knows not any thing from the moment it dies, and you have quoted scriptures that describe our dead body of flesh. It is dead and decaying, and knows nothing.

    The 'spirit' = 'breath of life', is totally another thing. It is the reason that the flesh body is alive, and it is the reason that the flesh body dies. At death, the 'spirit' leaves the body and lives on, being eternal.

    The bible is full of scriptures that support that position on the 'spirit' of man. If I were to put is succinctly, it is a very important part of the gospel of Jesus Christ that you know not of.

    For instance, the bible says that God breathed into Adam the 'breath of life', and he became a living soul. How long has that 'breath of life' existed. Certainly as long as God has existed. And we know God was from everlasting to everlasting. Therefore the 'spirit' or 'the breath of life' is eternal too.

    Just an interesting episode in the bible:
    Luke 8:54-56 King James Version (KJV)
    54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
    55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
    56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.

    Tell me:
    1) where did 'her spirit' come from?
    2) And notice the bible says it is 'her spirit'. Does that mean we all have personal 'spirits'?
    3) where was 'her spirit' before Jesus called it back into her?
    4) did 'her spirit' make her flesh body come alive again?
     
  14. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    I've seen so much twisting of the Bible by LDS. They try to make it support their erroneous doctrines. :(

    Or they use the words of Joseph Smith as scripture!

    Genesis 50 KJV has a total of 26 verses.

    Genesis 50 in the JST Bible has added verses:

    Gen 50:30 And again, a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins, and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins--and not to the bringing forth of my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them in the last days;

    31 Wherefore, the fruit of thy loins shall write, and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah shall grow together unto the confounding of false doctrines, and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to a knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord.

    32 And out of weakness shall he be made strong in that day when my work shall go forth among all my people, which shall restore them who are of the house of Israel in the last days.

    33 And that seer will I bless, and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded; for this promise I give unto you; for I will remember you from generation to generation; and his name shall be called Joseph, and it shall be after the name of his father; and he shall be like unto you; for the thing which the Lord shall bring forth by his hand shall bring my people unto salvation.
    Genesis

    Joseph Smith added those self-serving verses to the Bible!
     
  15. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Prophecies in the Bible About Joseph Smith, Ensign, Jan. 1989:
    In the King James version of the Bible, for example, only a few individuals (other than Christ) are prophesied of by name. These include Isaac, son of Abraham (see Gen. 17:19); Josiah, a righteous king of Judah (see 1 Kgs. 13:2); Maher-shalal-hash-baz, Isaiah’s son (see Isa. 8:1–3); Cyrus, king of Persia (see Isa. 44:28); and John the Baptist (see Luke 1:13). If we search the Joseph Smith Translation, however, we can add to the list the names of Noah (see JST, Gen. 7:79), Moses (see JST, Gen. 50:29, 34), Aaron (see JST, Gen. 50:35)—and the seer who would arise in the “latter days” and would be called “Joseph … after the name of his father” (JST, Gen. 50:31–33). This seer—obviously Joseph Smith, Jr.—was prophesied of in the original records of Moses. (See 1 Ne. 5:11–14.) Lehi quoted it when he found it on the plates of brass. (See 2 Ne. 3:6–21.)

    It should not be surprising to find the Prophet Joseph spoken of in the scriptures. After all, Joseph Smith was called, ordained, and given the keys to begin what Peter called “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began” (Acts 3:21), and what Paul described as “the dispensation of the fulness of times,” in which God would “gather together in one all things in Christ” (Eph. 1:10).
    Prophecies in the Bible about Joseph Smith

    The Joseph Smith Bible is a work if fiction! He thought he could correct the word of God!!!:thumbsdown:
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  16. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    So we will be in heaven naked and not knowing we are naked?

    You remember in Genesis 1:26 that man was created in the image and likeness of God. Jesus was created in the express image of God, only meaning that he looked exactly like God, IOW they could have been twins.

    If Jesus is so far above us, how can we be joint-heirs with him in all that the Father has? How can we sit with him on his throne and not burn up?

    It is through Jesus that we have hope in salvation, not JS. JS just gives us far more information about Jesus that gives us greater hope, and an incentive to be a follower of Jesus and attain wonderful, and unspeakable things in his kingdom, if we are faithful to follow him.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2019
  17. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    You are right on Phoebe Ann, thank you for these statements.
     
  18. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    There should be some indications of a prophet that will head the last great dispensation before Christ's second coming. A prophet that will receive instructions from Jesus about how to fulfill the prophecy in
    the bible about the restitution of all things, to prepare the world for the second coming.

    JS was a very important person to lead the last dispensation before the second coming.
     
  19. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    That sounds like something you want to be true, but desire doesn't make false prophets true, does it?
     
  20. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    LOL! You guys are pretty carnal minded, aren't you?---NOBODY KNOWS! There is speculation that Adam and Eve were covered in light.

    Because we are adopted!!! Adoption makes us His legal heirs. Non of the information that JS gives is true.
     
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