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LDS LDS folk, a question for you

Peter1000

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Jesus Christ is our creator---if we are His natural children, we have no need of being adopted. We are not the natural children of God the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit.

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Nothing anywhere states we ever existed before being born---we are all---every single human being--predestined to be saved for Jesus was the Sacrificial Lamb from the foundation of the world. The price of salvation has been paid for all---but it has to be accepted by the individual.
According to Ephesians 1:5 we are adopted by God the son/Jesus Christ unto himself. Is God the Son the same Person as God the Father?

God the Son/Jesus adopts us mortals into his family. You cannot be predestinated, unless you preexisted.

Since God the Father is the Father of our spirits (Romans 8:16, Numbers 27:16,
Hebrews 12:9) we preexisted.

Therefore, we were predestined to come to earth and be adopted by God the Son/Jesus Christ unto himself, and we become his sons and daughters too.

It all fits.
 
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BigDaddy4

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You didn't prove anything, all you gave me as proof that we don't need prophets is Revelations 11? Coincidentally, that is a chapter about the 2 witnesses, who prophecy 1260 days (if they are prophesying, then what does that make them? Prophets?)
Do you think you need these 2 prophets in Revelations?
This ^ answers this:
You are doing the same thing in regards to prophets needed in our day to get the world ready for the second coming of Jesus.
Until then, we have the Great Commission from Jesus himself, with no reference to the need for a prophet to carry it out. Why wouldn't you trust the words of Jesus? Your so-called prophets are useless compared to Jesus.
 
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mmksparbud

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According to Ephesians 1:5 we are adopted by God the son/Jesus Christ unto himself. Is God the Son the same Person as God the Father?

God the Son/Jesus adopts us mortals into his family. You cannot be predestinated, unless you preexisted.

Since God the Father is the Father of our spirits (Romans 8:16, Numbers 27:16,
Hebrews 12:9) we preexisted.

Therefore, we were predestined to come to earth and be adopted by God the Son/Jesus Christ unto himself, and we become his sons and daughters too.

It all fits.

"You cannot be predestinated, unless you preexisted." Totally not true. Before I was even conceived, my mother had predestined me to be dedicated to God, to go to school, to go to college, to learn how to cook and sew, to have a great job, to grow up and be a mother myself, She had great plans for me---so do most parents. God made provision for the fall and Jesus was set to be slain for our sins from the foundation of the world. We never existed before being born.

God the Father, God the Son, od the Holy Spirit---3 sepersate in purpose--all 3 are ONE. We do not belong only to God the Father, or the Son or the Holy Spirit. We belong and are adopted by the Godhead. When a mother and father decide to adopt---both of them adopt the child---not just the mother or father.
 
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He is the way

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They are translating what is there---they aren't making up stuff that doesn't exist in the bible.
That is your opinion, so how do you know? There is no such as a perfect translation. If you could read and understand Ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek you would know that some words are impossible to translate into English with the exact same meaning. Besides many people have a hard time understanding the Bible any way. Almost everyone has a hard time comprehending the meanings of the passages in the book of Revelation. There are a lot of books that were not included in the Bible. Where is the book of the covenant mentioned in 2 Kings 23:2? Who took that away from the Bible? That is just one of the many books mentioned or not mentioned that were left out.
 
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He is the way

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"You cannot be predestinated, unless you preexisted." Totally not true. Before I was even conceived, my mother had predestined me to be dedicated to God, to go to school, to go to college, to learn how to cook and sew, to have a great job, to grow up and be a mother myself, She had great plans for me---so do most parents. God made provision for the fall and Jesus was set to be slain for our sins from the foundation of the world. We never existed before being born.

God the Father, God the Son, od the Holy Spirit---3 sepersate in purpose--all 3 are ONE. We do not belong only to God the Father, or the Son or the Holy Spirit. We belong and are adopted by the Godhead. When a mother and father decide to adopt---both of them adopt the child---not just the mother or father.

All of us are children of God:

(Old Testament | Psalms 82:6)

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
(New Testament | Hebrews 12:9)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
(New Testament | Matthew 23:8 - 10)

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

However, some have been disowned:

(New Testament | Hebrews 12:6 - 8)

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
 
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mmksparbud

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That is your opinion, so how do you know? There is no such as a perfect translation. If you could read and understand Ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek you would know that some words are impossible to translate into English with the exact same meaning. Besides many people have a hard time understanding the Bible any way. Almost everyone has a hard time comprehending the meanings of the passages in the book of Revelation. There are a lot of books that were not included in the Bible. Where is the book of the covenant mentioned in 2 Kings 23:2? Who took that away from the Bible? That is just one of the many books mentioned or not mentioned that were left out.

Big difference between having a problem with interpreting a word and coming up with a whole theory--such as preexistence. You do not wrestle the scriptures to suit your believes, you develop your believes from the scriptures. JS came up with theories and sought to justify by twisting scriptures and when that didn't work he simply said that the bible has been corrupted. That is classic cult and gang tactic. You try to destroy what will keep the individual away from your believes. Gangs destroy the family relationship in order to replace it with themselves. It may have been problematic, but they will actively destroy it. Do away with the scriptures and you can say anything because there is no basis for your believes. You then bring in your own words And declare them of God. Works every time.
 
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mmksparbud

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All of us are children of God:

(Old Testament | Psalms 82:6)

6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
(New Testament | Hebrews 12:9)

9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
(New Testament | Matthew 23:8 - 10)

8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

However, some have been disowned:

(New Testament | Hebrews 12:6 - 8)

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

And? Again---adoption requires the adoption by both parents--in this case, there are 3 in one. Jesus is the creator of all things that have been created. He created Lucifer and all the angels, the world, the heavens, He created Adam and Eve--everything. Nothing can exist without Him. Yet, He lowered Himself to our level to save us. He became our brother as well as our Father, creator. And He points all to worship God the Father.
 
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Peter1000

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They are translating what is there---they aren't making up stuff that doesn't exist in the bible.
Well, that is just not true. Let me show you what I mean:
Let's take Revelations 3:14 and compare a couple of versions and see what happens.
Revelation 3:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

(analysis: 28 words. The interesting part is: 'the beginning of the creation of God'.)
(In this scripture from KJV, Jesus tells us he is the beginning of the creation of God. Beginning ususally refers to the first of the creations of God. Colossians 1:15 confirms this translation. Now that is interesting.)

AND

Revelation 3:14 New International Version (NIV)
To the Church in Laodicea
14 To the angel of the church in Laodicea; These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.

(analysis: 26 words. The interesting part is: 'the ruler of God's creation')
(In this same scripture from NIV, Jesus tells us he is the ruler of God's creation.)


In the KJV he is the 'beginning' of the creation of God, and in the NIV he is the 'ruler' of Gods creation.
That is a massive difference, and somebody's bias is glaring in the translation.

So the idea that they are just translating what's there is at least lost on this 1 scripture. But that is only 1 out of thousands.
 
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Peter1000

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And? Again---adoption requires the adoption by both parents--in this case, there are 3 in one. Jesus is the creator of all things that have been created. He created Lucifer and all the angels, the world, the heavens, He created Adam and Eve--everything. Nothing can exist without Him. Yet, He lowered Himself to our level to save us. He became our brother as well as our Father, creator. And He points all to worship God the Father.
That is not what your Ephesians 1:5 says. Thank you again for showing me that scripture. Ephesians 1:5 says that we are adopted by Jesus Christ unto himself. That does not sound like both parents to me.
Do you want to rip Ephesians 1:5 out of the bible?
 
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Peter1000

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What 2 prophets? I don't speculate about "possible scenarios"--If they are prophets of God, they will have made other predictions which can be established. Their very life will reflect if they follow the word of God. If their life does not reflect the word of God, they are not of God. If what they say contradicts the bible, they are not of God--period. You are speculating that a false prophet is actually from God and your sopeculation makes no sense. God will not resurrect a false prophet so your "possible scenario" will never happen.
You need to read Revelations 11 again. The 2 prophesying witnesses will be put to death and then they will be raised from the dead in 3 days. So read it again. No speculation on my part. And it makes perfect sense or the bible is wacky. You choose.
 
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Rescued One

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According to Ephesians 1:5 we are adopted by God the son/Jesus Christ unto himself. Is God the Son the same Person as God the Father?

God the Son/Jesus adopts us mortals into his family. You cannot be predestinated, unless you preexisted.

Since God the Father is the Father of our spirits (Romans 8:16, Numbers 27:16,
Hebrews 12:9) we preexisted.

Therefore, we were predestined to come to earth and be adopted by God the Son/Jesus Christ unto himself, and we become his sons and daughters too.

It all fits.

No, you should know that the subject of the sentence is the Father.

Eph. 1 KJV
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Ephesians 1 ESV
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
5 [the Father]he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which [the Father]he has freely given us in the One he loves. (the one he loves is his beloved Son)
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace
8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding,
9 [the Father]he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which [the Father]he purposed in Christ,
10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

Romans 8
… you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

You non-trinitarians don't get it.
 
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Rescued One

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That is not what your Ephesians 1:5 says. Thank you again for showing me that scripture. Ephesians 1:5 says that we are adopted by Jesus Christ unto himself. That does not sound like both parents to me.
Do you want to rip Ephesians 1:5 out of the bible?

Jesus is not our parent. He never referred to Himself as our Father. The Son is not the Father nor has He ever been the Father.
 
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He is the way

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Big difference between having a problem with interpreting a word and coming up with a whole theory--such as preexistence. You do not wrestle the scriptures to suit your believes, you develop your believes from the scriptures. JS came up with theories and sought to justify by twisting scriptures and when that didn't work he simply said that the bible has been corrupted. That is classic cult and gang tactic. You try to destroy what will keep the individual away from your believes. Gangs destroy the family relationship in order to replace it with themselves. It may have been problematic, but they will actively destroy it. Do away with the scriptures and you can say anything because there is no basis for your believes. You then bring in your own words And declare them of God. Works every time.
How about this:
https://www.amazon.com/Memories-Hea...ies+of+heaven&qid=1555539895&s=gateway&sr=8-4
 
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mmksparbud

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NDE happen in every religion. The Hindu have them with their gods, the Muslims with Mohamed, Catholics with Mary and their Saints, etc. Whatever you believe in is how the NDE will be. I've had 2---neither had anything but me falling asleep. Same for my friend. The can be duplicated with pilot training --anything that lowers your O2 Sats. Which is what happened with me--respiratory failure, and a niece, bled out and O2 levels plummeted.
 
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mmksparbud

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Well, that is just not true. Let me show you what I mean:
Let's take Revelations 3:14 and compare a couple of versions and see what happens.
Revelation 3:14 King James Version (KJV)
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

(analysis: 28 words. The interesting part is: 'the beginning of the creation of God'.)
(In this scripture from KJV, Jesus tells us he is the beginning of the creation of God. Beginning ususally refers to the first of the creations of God. Colossians 1:15 confirms this translation. Now that is interesting.)

AND

Revelation 3:14 New International Version (NIV)
To the Church in Laodicea
14 To the angel of the church in Laodicea; These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.

(analysis: 26 words. The interesting part is: 'the ruler of God's creation')
(In this same scripture from NIV, Jesus tells us he is the ruler of God's creation.)


In the KJV he is the 'beginning' of the creation of God, and in the NIV he is the 'ruler' of Gods creation.
That is a massive difference, and somebody's bias is glaring in the translation.

So the idea that they are just translating what's there is at least lost on this 1 scripture. But that is only 1 out of thousands.

That's why I go to several translations. Rule of them is that the bible will not contradict itself when translated correctly and if there is a seeming contradiction, you look at the very character of God to help with the meaning. You do not take just one verse and make a whole story out of it that does not go with the rest of what the bible says.
 
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BigDaddy4

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If you could read and understand Ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek you would know that some words are impossible to translate into English with the exact same meaning.
What were your credentials in Ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek again? You must have some kind of training to make this statement, right?
Where is the book of the covenant mentioned in 2 Kings 23:2? Who took that away from the Bible? That is just one of the many books mentioned or not mentioned that were left out.
The "book of the covenant" in 2 Kings 23:2 is likely referring to the Torah (first 5 books of the OT). This is where it is recorded of the covenant God made with Israel. So, no one took it away (although JS defiled it with his JST, but that's a different thread for a different time).
 
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He is the way

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What were your credentials in Ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek again? You must have some kind of training to make this statement, right?
I have done some studying.:




heading_language.jpg


The Ancient Hebrew Language
By Jeff A. Benner
The language of the Ancient Hebrews is closely related to their agricultural and nomadic lifestyle. Each word must be understood through this culture rather than from our own modern western Greco-Roman culture. As an example, the Hebrew word מצוה (mitsvah) is usually translated as a command or commandment in most other translations but Hebraicly means the directions given to guide one on the journey. Hence, this word will be translated in the MT as "direction."

Hebraic thought differs from our own process of thinking in that the Hebrews were concrete thinkers in contrast to our own abstract way of thinking. Concrete thought relates all words, concepts and ideas to something that can be sensed by the five senses. For instance, the Hebrew word אף (aph) is the nose, or nostrils, but is the same word for anger since one who is angry will flare the nostrils.

At times you are going to come across a word in this translation that seems to make absolutely no sense. This is mostly due to the differences between our modern Greco-Roman perspective of thought and the ancient Hebrew’s perspective of thought. Also keep in mind that each Hebrew word is translated exactly the same way every time, so there will be instances when the word seems out of context. What you will need to do is study that word and the context which it is used in, so you can better understand its Hebraic meaning. Once this has been done the word, and the verse itself, will come to life in ways never before perceived. A good example of this is found in the very first verse of Genesis where most translations will have "In the beginning God created." The Revised Mechanical Translation reads "In the summit Elohiym fattened." The Hebrew word ראשית (reshiyt) literally means the head or top of a place or time, what is prominent. The Hebrew word ברא (bara) literally means to fatten but with the extended idea of filling up. In context, the first chapter of Genesis is about importance of the filling up of the heavens and the earth, not its creation within a span of time (an abstract idea that is foreign to Hebraic thinking).

Hebrew words, verbs, nouns, adjectives, etc., are best defined through a visual action. The Hebrew root עקב is used for the noun eqev meaning the heel, the verb aqav meaning to restrain in the sense of grabbing the heel to hold one back and the adjective eyqev meaning because, or since, through the concept of one idea in a sentence on the heel of another idea within the sentence.

The Hebrew word את (et - translated as "At" in the MT) is frequently found in the Hebrew text to identify the direct object of a verb by preceding it. Since there is no English equivalent for this grammatical tool this word will not be translated in the RMT. However, this word is used in the text on occasion to mean "with" or "at."

Because the original Hebrew text does not include any punctuation such as periods and quotations, the MT will not include these either. The only exception to this is the use of the comma which will be used in the RMT to separate phrases where the grammar of the sentence requires a separation as well as at the end of a thought.

A combination of Hebrew words, prefixes and/or suffixes are occasionally used to convey one idea. The Hebrew phrase על כן (al ken) literally means "upon so" but is translated in the RMT as "therefore."

Some Hebrew idioms are found in the Bible. An idiom is a word, or phrase used in a sense that is not meant to be taken literally. An example of a Hebrew idiom is the phrase "bone of the day" (7:13), an idiom meaning "noontime."
More at: The Ancient Hebrew Language
 
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He is the way

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The "book of the covenant" in 2 Kings 23:2 is likely referring to the Torah (first 5 books of the OT). This is where it is recorded of the covenant God made with Israel. So, no one took it away (although JS defiled it with his JST, but that's a different thread for a different time).
(Old Testament | 2 Kings 23:2)

2 And the king went up into the house of the LORD, and all the men of Judah and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem with him, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the people, both small and great: and he read in their ears all the words of the book of the covenant which was found in the house of the LORD.

So you actually believe he read all 187 chapters to them? I believe the book of the covenant was a much smaller book that was kept at the temple and was a sacred book which was destroyed with the temple.
 
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Peter1000

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Jesus is not our parent. He never referred to Himself as our Father. The Son is not the Father nor has He ever been the Father.
mmksparbud said he was in post 267.

God the Son is the Father of his church, here on earth. He is the Father of his adopted sons and daughters. God the Father is the Father of Jesus Christ and is the Father of our spirits.

And you are right, God the Son is not God the Father, nor has he ever been God the Father. But he can be called the Father for certain reasons.

Trinitarians can get that, as well as us.
 
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Peter1000

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What were your credentials in Ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek again? You must have some kind of training to make this statement, right?

The "book of the covenant" in 2 Kings 23:2 is likely referring to the Torah (first 5 books of the OT). This is where it is recorded of the covenant God made with Israel. So, no one took it away (although JS defiled it with his JST, but that's a different thread for a different time).
Are you aware of any other translators that as you put it 'defiled' it?
 
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