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Featured LDS LDS folk, a question for you

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by drstevej, Apr 2, 2019.

  1. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    I'm a reasonable person, FYI.

    Jesus was not a demi-god or a lower god. God is God, not a would-be god. He lowered Himself to be among us, but He knew He would have the same glory He had with the Father before taking on human flesh.

    Immanuel (Hebrew: עִמָּנוּאֵל meaning, "God with us")
     
  2. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

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    Phil. 2:6 does not say that Jesus was not equal with God, but the opposite, saying He was eternally equal with God, being in the "form of God", having "glory" with the Father (John 17:5) but chose to step down from the throne where He had ever ruled by the side of His Father, to take on the form of a servant (mankind, flesh of mankind):

    Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    Notice, Jesus did not think it was robbery (theft) of God the Father's glory, to "be equal with God (the Father)". Jesus is equal with the Father, and said so Himself:

    Joh_5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God

    Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    Notice, it was Jesus Himself, who "made himself of no reputation", which means He had such "reputation" as the Father had before He made this decision, and that Jesus "took upon him(self) the form of a servant", which means beforehand, He had eternally been in the "form of God", and was "equal" to the Father, even as John says, in John 1:1, ever having been "with" His Father.

    Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Jesus humbled Himself. Phil 2 is not about Jesus 'going up' (exaltation), but about 'going down' (humbling).

    The LDS theology reverses Phil 2.

    Jesus didn't 'know' that He could be equal with God, He already knew that He was (I AM) equal with His Father:

    Joh_10:30 I and my Father are one.

    Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    Notice, that Jesus existed before Abraham, and not merely a short time before Abraham, for the koine Greek, as well as the English demonstrate that Jesus eternally existed before Abraham, for it reads "I AM", which is showing that as long as one can think of the past, there Jesus was, and there was never a time when the Son of the Father was not.
     
  3. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

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    "giving up the ghost", is old English, for breathing one's last. "Ghost", comes from "ghast", or breath.

    Notice the formation of mankind:

    Gen_2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    Notice, of Abraham, and what the Bible says:

    Gen_25:8 Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.

    It says, "Abraham gave up the ghost (breathed his last)", and what then does it say of Abraham after that happened? "(He, Abraham) died ... an old man, and full of years". Then what happened to him? His people took him up and buried him, "was gathered to his people".

    Gen 25:9 And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;

    It say they "buried him (Abraham)". Nowhere in any text does it say Abraham floated away as an ethereal spectre.

    Notice what Scripture says of Abraham:

    Joh_8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.

    Joh_8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

    Jesus responded by saying that Abraham had seen (past tense) Jesus in his own day, and if Abraham had been conscience at that moment somewhere floating around without a body as the greeks taught, Jesus would have said that Abraham is presently seeing, but never uses the present tense. Abraham is in the dust of the earth, asleep in death, awaiting the resurrection:

    Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

    Abraham had no knowledge of his far distant descendants, for in death a person knows nothing (Ecc. 9:5,6,10):

    Isa_63:16 Doubtless thou art our father, though Abraham be ignorant of us, and Israel acknowledge us not: thou, O LORD, art our father, our redeemer; thy name is from everlasting.

    Abraham believed in resurrection (as in Isaac), not floating away upon death:

    Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

    What of Ishmael & Isaac?

    Gen_25:17 And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people.

    Gen_35:29 And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.

    Gen 49:31 There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife; there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife; and there I buried Leah.

    They buried persons.

    Jacob:

    Gen_49:33 And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people.

    Job speaks of this:

    Job_3:11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

    Job_11:20 But the eyes of the wicked shall fail, and they shall not escape, and their hope shall be as the giving up of the ghost.

    If giving up the ghost meant freedom, then why does Job explain it thus? It is not freedom, it is death, and being bound in the grave. Death is an enemy, not a friend (1 Cor. 15:26).

    Notice what Job asks:

    Job_14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

    Job 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
    Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
    Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past (the seven last plagues), that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
    Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait (where is the dead man waiting? in the grave, the dust of the earth, asleep), till my change come (which is exactly what Paul says in the NT).
    Job 14:15 Thou shalt call (Jesus shall descend from Heaven with a shout ...), and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

    Jeremiah speaking of the city Jerusalem:

    Jer_15:9 She that hath borne seven languisheth: she hath given up the ghost; her sun is gone down while it was yet day: she hath been ashamed and confounded: and the residue of them will I deliver to the sword before their enemies, saith the LORD.

    Notice others, Ananians & Sapphira:

    Act 5:5 And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
    Act 5:6 And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

    Act_5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

    In Acts 5:10, 12:23, the words used is "εξεψυξεν" (G1634), which means to 'expire', breathe ones last. It has no definition of the Greek Platonic philosophy of a living entity apart from the body.

    In other cases (such as John 19:30, etc) it is simply the koine Greek, "πνευμα" (G4151), which simply means, 'wind, air, breath, spirit (in the sense of mind/heart)'. For instance, when Jesus gave up the "ghost", we know that Jesus "died", and was "buried", and was placed in a "tomb", and didn't go anywhere, until resurrected by the command of His Father through the angel Gabriel upon the first day of the week:

    Mat_28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

    Notice, it speaks of the person Jesus laying in the Tomb those three days.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
  4. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

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    Please study your Bible:

    The Ghost

    Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people. Genesis 25:8

    And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people. Genesis 25:17

    And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him. Genesis 35:29

    And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people. Genesis 49:33

    Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly? Job 3:11

    Wherefore then hast thou brought me forth out of the womb? Oh that I had given up the ghost, and no eye had seen me! Job 10:18

    But the eyes of the wicked shall fail, and they shall not escape, and their hope shall be as the giving up of the ghost. Job 11:20

    Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost. Job 13:19

    But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? Job 14:10

    She that hath borne seven languisheth: she hath given up the ghost; her sun is gone down while it was yet day: she hath been ashamed and confounded: and the residue of them will I deliver to the sword before their enemies, saith the LORD. Jeremiah 15:9

    I called for my lovers, but they deceived me: my priests and mine elders gave up the ghost in the city, while they sought their meat to relieve their souls. Lamentations 1:19

    Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. Matthew 27:50

    And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. Mark 15:37

    And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God. Mark 15:39

    And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Luke 23:46

    When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. John 19:30

    And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. Acts 5:5

    And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. Acts 5:6

    Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. Acts 5:9

    Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. Acts 5:10

    And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost. Acts 12:23

    Gathered Unto, Laid Unto

    And these are the years of the life of Ishmael, an hundred and thirty and seven years: and he gave up the ghost and died; and was gathered unto his people. Genesis 25:17

    And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him. Genesis 35:29

    And he charged them, and said unto them, I am to be gathered unto my people: bury me with my fathers in the cave that is in the field of Ephron the Hittite, Genesis 49:29

    And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people. Genesis 49:33

    Aaron shall be gathered unto his people: for he shall not enter into the land which I have given unto the children of Israel, because ye rebelled against my word at the water of Meribah. Numbers 20:24

    And strip Aaron of his garments, and put them upon Eleazar his son: and Aaron shall be gathered unto his people, and shall die there. Numbers 20:26

    And when thou hast seen it, thou also shalt be gathered unto thy people, as Aaron thy brother was gathered. Numbers 27:13

    Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people. Numbers 31:2

    And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people: Deuteronomy 32:40

    And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel. Judges 2:10

    For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: Acts 13:36

    Slept With His Fathers

    So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David. 1 Kings 2:10

    And when Hadad heard in Egypt that David slept with his fathers, and that Joab the captain of the host was dead, Hadad said to Pharaoh, Let me depart, that I may go to mine own country. 1 Kings 11:21

    And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead. 1 Kings 11:43

    And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his stead. 1 Kings 14:20

    And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess. And Abijam his son reigned in his stead. 1 Kings 14:31

    And Abijam slept with his fathers; and they buried him in the city of David: and Asa his son reigned in his stead. 1 Kings 15:8

    And Asa slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Jehoshaphat his son reigned in his stead. 1 Kings 15:24

    So Baasha slept with his fathers, and was buried in Tirzah: and Elah his son reigned in his stead. 1 Kings 16:6

    So Omri slept with his fathers, and was buried in Samaria: and Ahab his son reigned in his stead. 1 Kings 16:28

    So Ahab slept with his fathers; and Ahaziah his son reigned in his stead. 1 Kings 22:40

    And Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Jehoram his son reigned in his stead. 1 Kings 22:40

    And Joram slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David: and Ahaziah his son reigned in his stead. 2 Kings 8:24

    And Jehu slept with his fathers: and they buried him in Samaria. And Jehoahaz his son reigned in his stead. 2 Kings 10:35

    And Jehoahaz slept with his fathers; and they buried him in Samaria: and Joash his son reigned in his stead. 2 Kings 13:9

    And Joash slept with his fathers; and Jeroboam sat upon his throne: and Joash was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel. 2 Kings 13:13

    And Jehoash slept with his fathers, and was buried in Samaria with the kings of Israel; and Jeroboam his son reigned in his stead. 2 Kings 14:16

    He built Elath, and restored it to Judah, after that the king slept with his fathers. 2 Kings 14:22

    And Jeroboam slept with his fathers, even with the kings of Israel; and Zachariah his son reigned in his stead. 2 Kings 14:29

    So Azariah slept with his fathers; and they buried him with his fathers in the city of David: and Jotham his son reigned in his stead. 2 Kings 15:7

    And Menahem slept with his fathers; and Pekahiah his son reigned in his stead. 2 Kings 15:22

    And Jotham slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David his father: and Ahaz his son reigned in his stead. 2 Kings 15:38

    And Ahaz slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David: and Hezekiah his son reigned in his stead. 2 Kings 16:20

    And Hezekiah slept with his fathers: and Manasseh his son reigned in his stead. 2 Kings 20:21

    And Manasseh slept with his fathers, and was buried in the garden of his own house, in the garden of Uzza: and Amon his son reigned in his stead. 2 Kings 21:18

    So Jehoiakim slept with his fathers: and Jehoiachin his son reigned in his stead. 2 Kings 24:6

    And Solomon slept with his fathers, and he was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead. 2 Chronicles 9:31

    And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David: and Abijah his son reigned in his stead. 2 Chronicles 12:16

    So Abijah slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the city of David: and Asa his son reigned in his stead. In his days the land was quiet ten years. 2 Chronicles 14:1

    And Asa slept with his fathers, and died in the one and fortieth year of his reign. 2 Chronicles 16:13

    Now Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And Jehoram his son reigned in his stead. 2 Chronicles 21:1

    He built Eloth, and restored it to Judah, after that the king slept with his fathers. 2 Chronicles 26:2

    So Uzziah slept with his fathers, and they buried him with his fathers in the field of the burial which belonged to the kings; for they said, He is a leper: and Jotham his son reigned in his stead. 2 Chronicles 26:3

    And Jotham slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the city of David: and Ahaz his son reigned in his stead. 2 Chronicles 27:9

    And Ahaz slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the city, even in Jerusalem: but they brought him not into the sepulchres of the kings of Israel: and Hezekiah his son reigned in his stead. 2 Chronicles 28:27

    And Hezekiah slept with his fathers, and they buried him in the chiefest of the sepulchres of the sons of David: and all Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem did him honour at his death. And Manasseh his son reigned in his stead. 2 Chronicles 32:33

    So Manasseh slept with his fathers, and they buried him in his own house: and Amon his son reigned in his stead. 2 Chronicles 33:20


    Sleep With Thy Fathers

    And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them. Deuteronomy 31:16

    And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. 2 Samuel 7:12

    Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders. 1 Kings 1:21

    For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: Acts 13:36
     
  5. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

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    This was answered by Job:

    Job_14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

    Job 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
    Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
    Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past (the seven last plagues), that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
    Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait (where is the dead man waiting? in the grave, the dust of the earth, asleep), till my change come (which is exactly what Paul says in the NT).
    Job 14:15 Thou shalt call (Jesus shall descend from Heaven with a shout ...), and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

    Read the passage again, it doesn't say Jesus went anywhere that day except to the tomb, for you need to consider the context of Jesus statement:

    Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    Luk 23:43 και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω

    Jesus three days later stated He hadn't yet gone to "Paradise (3rd Heaven)":

    Jhn 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.

    What then did Jesus mean when speaking to the thief? Jesus was speaking about the resurrection, when Jesus would come to rule in His kingdom as King of Kings and Lord of Lords:

    Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

    Luk_14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

    What Jesus was saying to the thief upon the cross, is that though Jesus did not look like a King with a Kingdom, He indeed was, and that if only the thief would believe His words “thou shalt be with me in Paradise”, he would be resurrected in the First Great Resurrection “at the last day” [John 6:39,40,44,54, 11:24], even “at that day” [2 Timothy 4:8]. Jesus, in opposition to what looked like circumstances unto an eternal end, yet He says to the thief, “Verily, verily I say unto thee to day...”, as in right now, this moment, 'I speak to you the truth'. It is like unto what we find here, “For he [is] our God; and we [are] the people of his pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his voice,” [Psalms 95:7; see also Hebrews 3:7,15, 4:7], for Jesus is saying, 'Believe my words to day...' and 'have faith in my word this moment' and 'trust me now', even as it is written,

    2 Cor 6:2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now [is] the accepted time; behold, now [is] the day of salvation.)

    What had Job to say again:

    Job 21:32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

    Where was Jesus, He was "in the tomb":

    Mat_28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.

    Notice:

    Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. Matthew 27:63

    He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. Matthew 28:6

    Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. John 10:17

    I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Revelation 1:18

    And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; Revelation 2:8

    Christ Jesus did not lead “captivity captive” [the “firstfruits” 1 Corinthians 15:20,23, the “wavesheaf” Leviticus 23:10-12; see Matthew 27:52-53] until His own Resurrection, “the third day” [Luke 24:21],

    “Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.” Ephesians 4:8 [Special Resurrection at Jesus own Resurrection, see also Psalms 68:18; Isaiah 26:19; Matthew 27:52,53]

    But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 1 Corinthians 15:20

    But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23

    The English word “coming” in the Greek is “parousia” “παρουσία” and means “presence, the advent, the coming, the arrival, the future visible return of Jesus from Heaven to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the Kingdom of God” [Strong's Concordance] [See Matthew 24:37 and compare to Luke 17:26,30].

    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1 Thessalonians 4:16

    Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

    Notice, not individually as any die, but all “together” being alive and others with them made alive in a resurrection [Biblical exceptions, Enoch, Elijah, Moses, special group of “saints” around Jerusalem at Jesus own resurrection, each playing a specific part in typology, there are no other Biblical exceptions].

    The same word can be viewed in many other passages: [Matthew 24:3,27,37,39; 1 Corinthians 16:17; 2 Corinthians 7:6-7, 10:10; Philippians 1:26, 2:12; 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 3:13, 4:15, 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:1,8,9; James 5:7-8; 2 Peter 1:16, 3:4,12; 1 John 2:28].
    There are also many other words that also describe Jesus' visible, physical, audible, tumultuous, glorious, triumphant and literal return at His appointed time:

    “to come and/or arrive” “erchomai” “ἔρχομαι” [Matthew 24:30, 26:64; John 14:3; 1 Corinthians 11:26; Revelation. 1:7],

    “to appear visibly” “optanomai” “ὀπτάνομαι” [Hebrews 9:28],

    “to return” “analyō” “ἀναλύω” [Luke 12:36],

    “to reveal” “apokalypsis” “ἀποκάλυψις” [2 Thessalonians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:7; Luke 17:29-30],

    “to manifest” “epiphaneia” “ἐπιφάνεια” [1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:8; Titus 2:13],

    “make manifest” “phaneroō” “φανερόω” [1 Peter 5:4],

    “come” “hēkō” “ἥκω” [Revelation 2:25],

    “to return” “hypostrephō” “ὑποστρέφω” [Luke 19:12].

    If LDS theology makes Jesus entering into the presence of God, even Paradise, the third Heaven the day that Jesus died, not only is that a contradiction to the word "death", and "dead" (Jesus said He died), but also contradicts what Jesus says in John 20:17, in that He had not yet gone to His father, even three days later.

    Jesus is specific about how anyone which dies, is to enter into Heaven, “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.” [John 14:3], and that word “come” is the Greek “erchomai” “ἔρχομαι”.

    Death is an enemy, not a friend [1 Corinthians 15:26], for it has a sting, which will one day be no more, and it was not until after the Resurrection of Christ Jesus, that He “...hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.” [2 Timothy 1:10].

    Again, Jesus was making it clear to the thief, that he would be resurrected and then be with Jesus in Paradise, and the promise was given to the thief that very "(to)day", to be realized when Jesus came back:

    And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Matthew 19:28

    When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: Matthew 25:31

    Jesus went to go receive the Kingdom, and went into that Far Country, 3rd Heaven. He is not yet married unto it.

    He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. Luke 19:12

    I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. Daniuel 7:13

    And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Daniel 7:14

    And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Revelation 21:2

    And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:17
    The number of His Kingdom is not made up yet, but soon it will be.

    See also: Isaiah 61:10, 62:5; Matthew 21:33, 25:14; Mark 12:1; Luke 20:9
     
  6. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

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    Read your Bible, for "when" did Jesus preach to the "spirits in prison", and by "whom", and "what" does it mean?

    Here are the texts and immediate local context of 1 Peter 3:1-22; Genesis 6:1-22, 7:1-24 [see also previous and after Genesis 8:1-22, 9:1-29]; Job 22:15-17; Jude 1:14-15.

    What do we immediately notice that Peter believes?

    [1] That we are “begotten … again unto a lively [living] hope...”, and what is this “lively hope”, not that we actually have the inheritance realized, but that we are actively and still hoping for it to be realized, and this “lively hope”, will be realized in the “resurrection … from the dead” and not before, even as Paul says, “Henceforth [from this point forward in time] there is [currently] laid up [reserved, even as Peter says] for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day [the Day of the Lord]: and not to me only, but unto all them [which currently sleep in Jesus in the dust of the earth, or are then alive and changed instantly, from mortality to conditional immortality] also that love his appearing [2nd Advent, when the Lord blows the trumpet and calls the dead to life and immortal bloom [1 Thessalonians 4:13-18]].” [2 Timothy 4:8]

    [2] Peter says that this “lively hope” that we have comes through, or is by “...the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.” and therefore we do not inherently have an immortal anything, but it is only “...brought life and immortality to light...” [2 Timothy 1:10] through Christ's resurrection “...from the dead.” which is even preached in the “gospel”.

    [3] Notice that it is an “...inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away...”, but do we now possess it 'in hand'?, or rather as Peter says that it is a “lively hope” [for if we are still hoping, it is not yet present, but future], even “...reserved in heaven for you”. What does it mean to be “reserved”? It means to be held in another's possession until such time as it is to be given unto us in actuality, but for the moment it is promised of God, and it is He [Jesus] which holds it.

    [4] Peter clearly states that for the moment we are “...kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation...”, and therefore notice that it is “through faith unto salvation”, and not merely salvation without condition [“But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” Matthew 24:13; see also Mark 13:13]. We all have the choice to continue or not continue to walk with Christ Jesus [John 6:66], and that choice is never to be taken away, not even in all eternity [more on this later if necessary].

    [5] Peter says that this “salvation” is “...ready to be revealed in the last time.” and is therefore not yet here, but future still, for we, even as he, await Christ Jesus coming in the clouds of glory with all His holy angels, “revealed in the last time” [“revealed”; see also Matthew 10:26; Luke12:2, “...in the day when the Son of man is revealed.” Luke 17:30; “...the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire ...” 1 Corinthians 3:13, even in that day when the man of sin is revealed [2 Thessalonians 2:3-8]; “...a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed.” 1 Peter 5:1], which is the Day of the Lord, the 2nd Advent.

    That word “revealed” - “apokalyptō” “ἀποκαλύπτω” has many other complimentary partners in the Scripture which all speak of the same events:

    But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (1 Corinthians 15:23).

    The English word “coming” in the Greek is “parousia” “παρουσία” and means “presence, the advent, the coming, the arrival, the future visible return of JESUS from Heaven to raise the dead, hold the last judgment, and set up formally and gloriously the Kingdom of GOD” [Strong's Concordance] [See Matthew 24:37 and compare to Luke 17:26,30].

    The same word can be viewed in many other passages: [Matthew 24:3,27,37,39; 1 Corinthians 16:17; 2 Corinthians 7:6-7, 10:10; Philippians 1:26, 2:12; 1 Thessalonians 2:19, 3:13, 4:15, 5:23; 2 Thessalonians 2:1,8,9; James 5:7-8; 2 Peter 1:16, 3:4,12; 1 John 2:28].

    There are also many other words that also describe Jesus' visible, physical, audible, tumultuous, glorious, triumphant and literal return at His appointed time:

    to come and/or arrive” “erchomai” “ἔρχομαι” [Matthew 24:30, 26:64; John 14:3; 1 Corinthians 11:26; Revelation. 1:7],

    to appear visibly” “optanomai” “ὀπτάνομαι” [Hebrews 9:28],

    to return” “analyō” “ἀναλύω” [Luke 12:36],

    to reveal” “apokalypsis” “ἀποκάλυψις” [2 Thessalonians 1:7; 1 Peter 1:7; Luke 17:29-30],

    to manifest” “epiphaneia” “ἐπιφάνεια” [1 Timothy 6:14; 2 Timothy 4:8; Titus 2:13],

    make manifest” “phaneroō” “φανερόω” [1 Peter 5:4],

    come” “hēkō” “ἥκω” [Revelation 2:25],

    to return” “hypostrephō” “ὑποστρέφω” [Luke 19:12].

    All Heaven will be poured out in the Triumphant Great Advent of the Lord, Saviour and God, Christ Jesus, and the Gates will be lifted up again:

    And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. [Revelation 22:12]

    [6] Peter uses another related word “revealed” - apokalypsis” “ἀποκάλυψις” here, “...might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ...” and we may look at both [vs 5 and vs 7] and see that they are speaking of the same events, the 2nd Advent which it is then that the “glory” [vs 7] is known, then we shall be changed and “...shine as the brightness of the firmament … as the stars for ever and ever.” [Daniel 12:3]

    [7] Peter continues in this same thought over and over again, “Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;” 1 Peter 1:13, and so therefore notice that there is a “hope” we must have for something yet future, to be continued with us, “..to the end...” for that “grace”, which will be [future tense, not yet here], “...brought unto you at...”, when shall it be brought? “...at the revelation [same word in vs 5, “revealed”] of Jesus Christ.”, not before.

    [8] When does Peter speak of the “glory” that was given to the Son? It was after the resurrection, “Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.” [1 Peter 1:21], and therefore it will not be until our [the faithful's] respective resurrection that we too shall receive of this “glory”, then no longer having a “lively hope” for it, but in reality then possessing it, having finally reached “the end” by that continued and persevering “faith”.

    [9] Peter is continually speaking of the time frame of this 2nd Advent, “...glorify God in the day of visitation.” [1 Peter 2:12] and “...an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed” [1 Peter 5:1] and “And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.” [1 Peter 5:4].
     
  7. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

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    Is this consistent with Peter that the dead are dead [asleep] until their respective resurrection, and are not ascended into Heaven? It sure is, even from the very moment of Pentecost, being anointed by the Holy Spirit:

    What did Peter teach on this subject? Let us go to a powerful lesson in Acts 2:

    The Apostle Simon 'Peter' Barjona, filled with the Holy Spirit, raises his voice and begins speaking, teaching and orating. He is not alone in this, for not only is this message signified and approved by the Holy Spirit Himself, he is also surrounded by the other 11 Apostles of Christ Jesus and the remaining Disciples that were with them. The Apostle Simon 'Peter' Barjona then before the crowd in Jerusalem, in a teaching and expounding manner, directly quotes from both the Prophets Joel and King David, as well as from the Psalms.

    Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Acts 2:29

    For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Acts 2:34

    And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation. 2 Peter 3:4

    Good King David, a man after God's own heart, though he had his downfall, is Dead … Buried … not in Heaven … and even moreso his Tomb was still with them all. So says the Apostle Simon 'Peter' Barjona himself by the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures. Ought we then not to believe him? If not, how about the scriptures which agreed with him and others such as Paul and/or Jesus?

    And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. Acts 2:42

    Shall we not want to continue stedfastly in the Apostle's doctrine and fellowship on this subject? What begins to happen if we do not?

    What does Luke [physician/historian] teach and record about the Apostle and Martyr Stephen?

    And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:60

    What does Paul teach on David, and others who have died previously?

    For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: Acts 13:36

    [Paul Agrees with Peter in Acts 2, which agrees with the OT scripture]

    After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 1 Corinthians 15:6

    But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1 Thessalonians 4:13

    What did John the Apostle teach by the Holy Spirit in Revelation?

    And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed [are] the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. Revelation 14:13

    Moving onward, Let us see what Peter says after the verses [1 Peter 3:1-22] we are to consider and thus see what is surrounding them. He continues exhorting to live godly, keeping the Commandments of God through faith, believing His precious promises that we might be partakers of the divine nature, and if such faith is kept unto the end, we shall have an entrance ministered by Jesus and all the Holy angels come with Him to take us back, etc, for he knows that these will be his last words unto them:

    For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:11

    Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know [them], and be established in the present truth. 2 Peter 1:12

    Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting [you] in remembrance; 2 Peter 1:13

    Knowing that shortly I must put off [this] my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 2 Peter 1:14

    Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance. 2 Peter 1:15

    [1] When shall we receive this “entrance” [2 Peter 1:11] into the “everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ”? Even as Peter said earlier, it is when He shall be “revealed” [1 Peter 1:5,7,13] from Heaven. As of this moment that is what we have this “lively hope” [1 Peter 1:3] of. For though our names are written in Heaven [Luke 10:20; which may, a this time, still be removed and blotted out], we desire to enter there. Peter says that it shall be “...ministered unto [us]...” [2 Peter 1:11], and how so?, by Jesus Christ Himself coming with every single ministering angel [Psalms 68:17, 104:3; Isaiah 66:15; Matthew 13:39,49, 16:27, 24:30, 25:31,51, 26:64; Mark 8:38, 13:27; Luke 9:26, 21:27; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 4:16-17; Hebrews 1:7; Revelation 1:7, 12:7, etc] in Heaven to come and claim His own [John 14:2-3; Matthew 24:30, 25:31; Mark 8:38; Luke 9:26, 21:27; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 4:16; etc], known as the Great Harvest of Wheat [Revelation 14:15] which shall be reaped.

    [2] Peter declares that these shall be some of his very last words to them, as Jesus had revealed to him earlier [vs 14], that Peter was to die, “Knowing that shortly I must put off [this] my tabernacle...” [2 Peter 1:14], and thus speaks of his own “decease” [2 Peter 1:15], greek “exodos” “ἔξοδος”, which means departing, and in context, “departing” from life to go “in[to] the grave” [Job 14:13; Psalms 6:5, 31:17, 49:14, 88:5,11; Ecclesiastes 9:10; John 11:17; further see Genesis 42:38; 2 Samuel 3:32, 19:37; 1 Kings 2:6, 14:13; 2 Kings 22:20; Job 17:13, 21:13,32; Isaiah 38:10, 53:9; etc] and the “return[ing] unto dust” [Genesis 2:7, 3:19, 18:27; Job 4:19, 7:21, 10:9, 17:16, 20:11, 21:26, 34:15, 40:13; Psalms 22:15,29, 30:9, 103:14, 104:29; Ecclesiastes 3:20, 12:7; Isaiah 2:10, 26:19; Daniel 12:2, etc]. Peter understands that his earthly tabernacle, this mortal of his shall be “swallowed up of life” [2 Corinthians 5:4] in the resurrection to come, wherein he shall have been given as a “reward” [Revelation 22:12], for having been a “faithful and wise servant” [Matthew 24:45], a new glorified tabernacle [2 Corinthians 5:2], but that while he is returned unto dust, he is temporarily until such time, “sleepeth/asleep” [John 11:11; 2 Peter 3:4] in the first death without a tabernacle of earth or of heaven, “naked” [2 Corinthians 5:3] in death [not the 2nd death].

    [3] We see that Peter strove with great love in his heart for them, with tender compassionate care and Godly fear, saying that he would “...not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things” [2 Peter 1:12] by several instances of “...putting [them] in remembrance...” [2 Peter 1:13], and again telling them to “...have these things always in remembrance.” [2 Peter 1:15], even though they already “know [them]” [2 Peter 1:12], but so that they would be “...established in the present truth” [2 Peter 1:12] and not “...carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive.” [Ephesians 4:14], knowing that “...it is the last time...” [1 John 2:18]; and that “...evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.” [2 Timothy 3:13], because there were already as foretold by Jesus [Matthew 24:24; Mark 13:22], “...false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.” [2 Peter 2:1], even these reprobate, “Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.” [2 Timothy 2:8]. Immortal soul/spirit theology destroys the hope of the resurrection, and of what Christ Jesus did upon the Cross, for those which teach it, say that people enter into Heaven [or hell/purgatory for others] as soon as they die, without any need of a resurrection... for even when will the wicked be cast in to the fire, as soon as they die? No. Scripture says, “Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”, which takes place after the Great White Throne Judgment and second Great resurrection [resurrection of damnation; “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished ...” Revelation 20:5(a)], and so “...there was found no place for them.” [Revelation 20:11; Daniel 2:35], not in Heaven, nor on earth [for there will be no more death or grave, for the earth shall be made New].

    [4] For Peter even writes that even the wicked angels [living beings, like unto us but different, “for all flesh in not the same flesh”, one kind and another [more on this later if necessary]] are yet “reserved” unto their rewards/judgments, “...to be reserved unto judgment ...” [2 Peter 2:4] and even the devils know this that their time of punishment is coming, yet future, “...art thou come hither to torment us before the time.” [Matthew 8:29] therefore as Paul says, “Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.” [1 Corinthians 4:5], and while the rebellious angels yet live and are active, the wicked humanity which have died, slumber in the ground, for God knows how “...to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.” [2 Peter 2:9], for that day approaches and is soon is coming according to prophecy, in which they both [wicked angel and wicked mankind] will perish together, depraved Head and Root and diseased body and branches of that corrupt tree, “For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.” [Malachi 4:1], and in that day, “...to be taken and destroyed … and shall utterly perish in their own corruption.” [2 Peter 2:12] and “And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness...” [2 Peter 2:13], “...to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.” [2 Peter 2:17], to “perish” [John 3:16; 2 Peter 3:9] and without life evermore and they will be made “...a terror, and thou [shalt be] no [more]: though thou be sought for, yet shalt thou never be found again, saith the Lord GOD.” [Ezekiel 26:21] and “...thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt be] any more.” [Ezekiel 27:36] and “...shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more.” [Ezekiel 28:19].

    [5] Peter knows that even in the last days there will be “scoffers” [2 Peter 3:3], “...Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep...” [2 Peter 3:4] and yet knowing that “...the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.” [2 Peter 3:7], for in that day, the Day of the Lord [the 1,000 years, the millennium; the 7th Day with the Lord God, 2 Peter 3:8], “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” [2 Peter 3:10] and “[Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,” [2 Peter 3:11] and Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?” [2 Peter 3:12]

    [6] Peter was looking forward to the New Heaven and the New Earth: “Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” [2 Peter 3:13], even so “...seeing that ye look for such things...” [2 Peter 3:14], not looking to be 'unclothed' [death, found 'naked'], but rather “clothed upon” [2 Corinthians 5:2,4].

    Therefore, with even all that which Peter has said what do these texts of 1 Peter 3:1-22 mean?

    Peter ends this section of his 1st Epistle by saying, "Finally brethren,..." after speaking about those things in 1 Peter 1 - 1 Peter 2 and also about the inward man and not the outward vain adorning, but rather of the chaste and holy conduct of the Christian, especially that which is between man [husband] and wife [1 Peter 3 1-7].
     
  8. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

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    Peter then goes into a section on this Christian love for one another, to be manifested and witnessed throughout whole Christian body of Christ [1 Peter 3:8-17].

    He finally then sums this all up in Christ Jesus as being the perfect model and example of this love, and re-connects that with the exhortation he previously spoke about in the earlier verses [1 Peter 3:1-17] with the very example of the days of Noah and the Salvation and Judgment seen there. Peter is giving an example of the very thing that Jesus prophesied about:

    "But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." [Matthew 24:37] see also Matthew 24:38; Luke 17:2627

    People in Noah's day rioted, and did whatever they pleased, and took whom they wanted, etc [ask about the context of “sons of God” and “daughters of men” and what was happening there]. Noah, who "was perfect in his generations" and "walked with god" [Genesis 6:9;p], preached unto them about "righteousness" [2 Peter 2:5], but most of the rest of the world mocked and railed at him, like as others also unto the other prophets [2 Chronicles 36:16; Job 12:4; Mark 12, etc]. So Noah "suffer[ed] for righteousness sake", but was unafraid of their "terror" and of their "speak[ing] evil" of him as an "evil doer", but rather he "found grace in the eyes of the Lord" [Genesis 6:8;p] and "sanctif[ied] the Lord God [in his] heart" and so "suffer[ed] for well doing" while believing God about the coming Judgment of the Flood [Genesis 6:17] which would take everyone away in destruction and thus it was "accounted unto him for righteousnesss" for so acting upon that Faith [James 2].

    So then what do the remaining verses of 1 Peter 3:18-22 actually mean?

    The passage is not saying that Christ Jesus, while deceased and in the tomb [where "the LORD lay" [Matthew 28:6]], then incorporeally went and preached a sermon to "spirits" [the common worldly defined form of an incorporeal immortal being, ie. 'ghosts of the deceased', etc].

    Jesus was dead, having suffered the Death [the wages for sin], which was ours for us all
    [though we too, our "old man" of "sin" [Romans 6:6;p] must die, and be "crucified with CHRIST" [Galatians 2:20;p] and be "born again" [John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23]], though His "Humanity died: divinity did not die" for GOD, Divinity, is "immortal" [1 Timothy 1:17].

    ...

    So, the Holy Spirit was already working in the "Days of Noah" upon the hearts and minds of men, as He has throughout the scriptures [Genesis 1:2; Numbers 11:29; Job 26:13; Isaiah 48:16; Zechariah 7:12; 1 Corinthians 2:10; Ephesians 3:16; 1 John 4:13; etc]:

    "And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years." [Genesis 6:3]

    So now, please notice what Peter is actually recounting of as it had happened in the "days of Noah":

    "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:" [1 Peter 3:18]

    "Put to death in the flesh", and "quickend" ["made alive, to produce alive...to cause to live, make alive, give life...to restore life...springing up..."; Greek "zōopoieō" "ζῳοποιέω"; Strong's Concordance, Thayer's Lexicon, Vines Expository, ; "in other words, to make living that which was before dead/without life"] by the Holy Spirit again ["not left in hell [grave]"] into Immortal and Uncorruptible Flesh [for His flesh never having seen corruption; Exodus 16:5,22-36; Psalms 16:10, 49:9; Acts 2:27,32, 13:35,37].

    He [Jesus] was "quickened by the Spirit" [in this text, being Raised by the Holy Spirit; Romans 8:11] and was forever raised as an immortal human man with "Flesh and Bones" [Luke 24:39] so that the disciples could "handle" Him and that He could "eat".

    Jesus, who spake of the raising of the "Temple of his Body" [John 2:21; Revelation 21:22], was Raised Bodily [John 2:19,21, 20:12; Luke 24:3,6,39,43, etc] unto Immortality as the type of the Uncorrupted Manna in the Wilderness foretold [Exodus 16:5,22-25] and was not floating around somewhere in some "immortalized incorporeal form of man-shade" preaching to other "deceased conscious incorporeals". ...

    "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;" [1 Peter 3:19]

    What is the "by which" this event ["went and preached"] was being done?

    It is "by the Spirit" [being the Holy Spirit], [vs 18].

    Who then is the "He" that was doing this ["went and preached"] by means of the Holy Spirit?

    It is Jesus ["Christ"], [vs 18], for Jesus was preaching through the Holy Spirit whom He had sent unto Noah to warn the world of the impending Judgment of God and for repentance. Remember “And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.” [Genesis 6:3]? To whom was Noah preaching to in those days then by the Holy Spirit whom Jesus had sent? Deceased 'ghosts' or people who were very much alive and living in sin and rebellion towards God?

    The text says that the Holy Spirit strove with "man" who is "flesh" which is animated unto life by the spirit of God, having been breathed into him:

    "...My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh..." [Genesis 6:3;p]

    Peter was using a comparison, of then [Noah's Day] and now [his [Peter's] day] and also the end of time] and was revealing that Christ Jesus through the Holy Spirit in the "days of Noah" [not in the days of Jesus' death] was preaching the Gospel of Salvation [Genesis 3:15, etc by Noah, the "preacher of righteousness"] to the living humans ["man"] that were then ["in the days of Noah"] "disobediant" to God.

    The Holy Spirit is the one who convicts of Sin, Judgment and Righteousness [John 16:8], which is why even King David prayed after he had sinned and was "disobedient" ["Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me." [Psalms 51:11]].

    Who then are these "spirits in prison" [vs 19] that were being "preached" unto?

    They were the living human beings [souls, living beings as defined by Genesis 2:7 and throughout] who were in the bonds of iniquity, slaves of sin, bondage of disobedience and bound to Sin, Satan and Self [selfishness and also self-works to earn salvation] as the Bible so defines:

    "...brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." [Exodus 20:2], see also Deuteronomy 5:6. 6:12, 8:14, 13:10; Judges 6:8; Joshua 24:17

    "And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee." [Deuteronomy 13:5] [notice also that last part of the text]

    "O LORD, truly I [am] thy servant; I [am] thy servant, [and] the son of thine handmaid: thou hast loosed my bonds." [Psalms 116:16]

    "Bring my soul out of prison..." [Psalms 142:7]

    "To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, [and] them that sit in darkness out of the prison house." [Isaiah 42:7]

    "The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;" [Isaiah 61:1]

    "The Spirit of the Lord [is] upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised," [Luke 4:18]

    "...whom Satan hath bound,... be loosed from this bond...?" [Luke 13:16]

    "No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." [Luke 16:13]

    "...Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." [John 8:34] [...is the slave of sin]

    "...the bond of iniquity." [Acts 8:23]

    "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." [Romans 8:15]

    "For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light:" [Ephesians 5:8]

    "And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." [Hebrews 2:15]

    "While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage." [2 Peter 2:19]

    Surely, those that Jesus Himself himself preached to in His 3 1/2 year Ministry were not "deceased or departed, nor some immortal incorporeal", but were very much physically alive ["mortal man" [Job 4:17]; "Mortal Flesh" [2 Corinthians 4:11]] and held in the bondage to sin satan and self.

    Even as Paul hath said:

    "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" [Romans 6:16]

    Also speaking of "liberty" from "iniquity" [lawlessness] the scriptures continue by saying:

    "And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts." [Psalms 119:45]

    "They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? " [John 8:33]

    "Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." [John 8:34]

    "And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: [but] the Son abideth ever." [John 8:35] [Paul uses this analogy in Galatians; those who are in bondage are sinners, refusing to submit to God and His righteousness]

    "If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." [John 8:38]

    "To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me." [Acts 26:18]

    "Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." [Romans 8:21]

    "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord [is], there [is] liberty." [2 Corinthians 3:17]

    "For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only [use] not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another." [Galatians 5:13]

    "But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." [James 1:25]

    "...judged by the law of liberty." [James 2:12]

    "As free, and not using [your] liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God." [1 Peter 2:16]

    "While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage." [2 Peter 2:19]

    Looking further at the context and continuing onward:

    "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." [1 Peter 3:20]

    Who are the "which"?

    They are the "spirits in prison", [vs 19], which by the text themselves declare are living people in the bonds of sin and disobedience.

    When was this preaching ["preached"] to these "spirits in prison" done according to the context?

    It was actually done to those who were "...disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the Ark was a prepraring..." [and even before through Enoch, and Methuselah [whose name means 'when he dies it will be sent'; 'flood'] as Jude gives]. This was done many years before Christ Jesus was ever incarnated/born as a man, and therefore long before His crucifixion.

    Thus the Gospel was also Preached "in the days of Noah" [for 120 years, Genesis 6:3]. The "disobedient" were the living disobedient and transgressing human beings who did not board the Ark, disbelieved the message of warning from God, but rather who continued to rebel and ignore the warnings that God [Jesus through the Holy Spirit] had given through Noah ["preacher of Righteousness"].

    It was not preached to angels, nor devils, nor immortal incorporeal forms, but rather it was preached to "man" [Genesis 6:3,5-7], who was living "flesh" [Genesis 6:12-13,17] [as we are living flesh], See also [Job 22:15-16].

    Peter is likening that preachment done then ["the like figure"], to the preachment done now [1 Peter 3:21], and their "then" baptism ["wherein 8 souls were saved by water"] in "the days of Noah", and he [Peter] is comparing it to the Baptism now offered in Christ Jesus.

    The Holy Spirit worked to convict of Sin then [through the preaching and lives of Adam, Seth, Enoch, Methuselah, Noah], as He does now [through Christians], but only 8 humans [living "souls"] were saved then, as no one else chose to repent, believe and obey and to get into the Ark [the only means of salvation] except Noah and his Family.

    So Likewise as it was “in the days of Noe” and in the days of Peter, the Gospel was preached to them who eventually died, hopefully in the faith that they might live again in the resurrection of the just, when his [Jesus'] glory shall be revealed, “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” [1 Peter 4:6], “But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.” [1 Peter 4:13] but if not in that resurrection of the faithful, then in the resurrection of the unfaithful, “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?” [1 Peter 4:18], so too today He is convicting the whole world of "Sin, Judgment and Righteousness" [John 16:8] through the preaching of the Three Angels Messages and the "Everlasting Gospel" found in Revelation 14:6-12. [As Noah was a "preacher of Righteousness" [2 Peter 2:5] See also [Psalms 119:172], so now there is a remnant group of God's people Revelation 14:12 proclaiming it over the whole world [Revelation 14:6]...]

    Christ Jesus says as it was "in the days of Noe" [Luke 17:26, see also Matthew 24:37-39], so it will be...

    ...Another Message goes forth unto the whole world of the judgment, the Loud Cry of the Three Angels Messages is swelling and going forth even in these Last days [Revelation 14:6-12; 18:1-24]... a message for all, get into the "Ark" [Revelation 11:19], and to be “sealed” [Isaiah 8:16; Ezekiel 9:4,6,11; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13, 4:30; Revelation 7:3,4,5,6,7,8, 14:1] in before the "door" [Luke 13:25; Daniel 12:1] of Mercy and Probation closes forever, and the "rain" of destruction comes [Psalms 11:6; Isaiah 28:17, etc]...

    Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver [but] their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD. Ezekiel 14:14

    Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, [were] in it, [as] I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall [but] deliver their own souls by their righteousness. Ezekiel 14:20

    Repent [Acts 4:24, 14:15]. Turn unto the Creator/Redeemer Jesus Christ, and worship Him who made the Heavens, the earth and the sea and all that in them is, for he is the Lord of the 7th Day Sabbath, even as it is written, Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Revelation 14:6-7, etc.
     
  9. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

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    Already addressed above. The "prison" is the bondage, chain, slavery of "sin", not a place somewhere. See the texts I gave you. The only humans that entered Paradise before the 2nd Advent, is Enoch (translated), Elijah (translated), Moses (resurrected and taken, as per many texts, which is why death reigned from Adam to Moses, for Moses was the first one permanently resurrected, and seen with Elijah in the NT on the mount of transfiguration, already having glorified bodies), "firstfruits" (some special ones around Jerusalem when Jesus was resurrected and taken back with Him, Psalms 24, etc), and "Jesus". There are no other of mankind in Paradise at the moment, except they be written there. All are awaiting either their resurrection or translation to come.

    What you believe does not align with scripture, for I showed you that God already forgave David's sin:

    2Sa_12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

    I also showed you from the NT, Peter and Paul, speaking by the Holy Ghost, that David is dead, buried, and in the tomb, awaiting his resurrection, and David saw corruption. David is dust even as we speak.

    Another error, for Paradise is indeed the 3rd Heaven:

    Paradise” is actually the “Garden of God” in “the city” “of God”, wherein is “the Throne of God” in the “third Heaven”, where God the Father rules, from where Jesus came from and from which Lucifer was cast out of, by scripture:

    Luke 23:43 Greek και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω

    And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:43

    It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 Corinthians 12:1

    2 Corinthians 12:2 Greek οιδα ανθρωπον εν χριστω προ ετων δεκατεσσαρων ειτε εν σωματι ουκ οιδα ειτε εκτος του σωματος ουκ οιδα ο θεος οιδεν αρπαγεντα τον τοιουτον εως τριτου ουρανου

    I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven. 2 Corinthians 12:2

    And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) 2 Corinthians 12:3

    2 Corinthians 12:4 Greek οτι ηρπαγη εις τον παραδεισον και ηκουσεν αρρητα ρηματα α ουκ εξον ανθρωπω λαλησαι

    How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Corinthians 12:4

    Revelation 2:7 Greek ο εχων ους ακουσατω τι το πνευμα λεγει ταις εκκλησιαις τω νικωντι δωσω αυτω φαγειν εκ του ξυλου της ζωης ο εστιν εν μεσω του παραδεισου του θεου

    He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. Revelation 2:7

    In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, [was there] the tree of life, which bare twelve [manner of] fruits, [and] yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree [were] for the healing of the nations. Revelation 22:2

    Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14

    Ezekiel 28:13 LXX ἐν τῇ τρυφῇ τοῦ παραδείσου τοῦ θεοῦ ἐγενήθης· πᾶν λίθον χρηστὸν ἐνδέδεσαι, σάρδιον καὶ τοπάζιον καὶ σμάραγδον καὶ ἄνθρακα καὶ σάπφειρον καὶ ἴασπιν καὶ ἀργύριον καὶ χρυσίον καὶ λιγύριον καὶ ἀχάτην καὶ ἀμέθυστον καὶ χρυσόλιθον καὶ βηρύλλιον καὶ ὀνύχιον, καὶ χρυσίου ἐνέπλησας τοὺς θησαυρούς σου καὶ τὰς ἀποθήκας σου ἐν σοὶ ἀφ᾿ ἧς ἡμέρας ἐκτίσθης σύ.

    Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Ezekiel 28:13

    Ezekiel 31:9 LXX διὰ τὸ πλῆθος τῶν κλάδων αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐζήλωσεν αὐτὸν τὰ ξύλα τοῦ παραδείσου τῆς τρυφῆς τοῦ θεοῦ.

    I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him. Ezekiel 31:9

    Isaiah 51:3 LXX καὶ σὲ νῦν παρακαλέσω, Σιων, καὶ παρεκάλεσα πάντα τὰ ἔρημα αὐτῆς καὶ θήσω τὰ ἔρημα αὐτῆς ὡς παράδεισον κυρίου· εὐφροσύνην καὶ ἀγαλλίαμα εὑρήσουσιν ἐν αὐτῇ, ἐξομολόγησιν καὶ φωνὴν αἰνέσεως.

    For the LORD shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the LORD; joy and gladness shall be found therein, thanksgiving, and the voice of melody. Isaiah 51:3

    Jesus did not enter into “Paradise” until after He was resurrected and arose from death “the third day” according to the scriptures, this being His first ascension back into Heaven, the other at the Mount of Olives [Acts 1:9; Revelation 12:5], after 40 days [Acts 1:3], 10 days before Pentecost, the 50th Day [Leviticus 23:16] in exact fulfillment of the Biblical Types and Prophecy given in the OT [unto Moses and Aaron].

    The Bible says that "David" himself, the person, is buried, not merely his dust. The "ghost", or the breath of David, which gave him life, is truly gone from him, and returned unto God, for that breath of life is from God (Gen. 2:7), and belongs to God (His spirit), not David.

    Ecc_8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

    The Greecian Platonic Dualistic philosophy teaches that mankind is an ethereal eternal immortal essence that cannot die. That is not what scripture teaches:

    Eze_18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

    Eze_18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

    The beginning of God's word declares mankind to be made from "dust", which God breathed into of His Life, into the nostrils, and then man "became" (came into being) a "living soul (creature/being)".

    The "living soul (creature/being)" that has its breath removed (breathes its last, etc), dies. The person becomes a "dead soul (creature/being)", and has no life, for the breath of Life of God is no longer animating (making alive) the dust.

    The dust simply returns to the earth from which it was taken, and the breath of Life of God, returns to God, since it is His breath, not ours.

    David was a man after God's own heart, though he did sin. God put away that sin. You will be judged by your own standards, for though you place David in LDS "hell", then in the name of Jesus Christ, may the Holy Ghost, in mercy, convict you of all the sins you have committed, and may the true fear of God come over you, and make you quake in your very bones, down to the inmost parts of your thoughts, for God is Holy, Holy, Holy, and your body temple ought to quiver in awesome dread between that Holiness and your own uncleanness. Cease from comparing yourself to David the type, and compare yourself to David Immanuel.

    Woe unto you then ...
     
  10. HeartenedHeart

    HeartenedHeart Member

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    Truly, and there in the name Immanuel, is the very word, "El", which is meaning "God", who is with us, and thus even JEHOVAH Immanuel is one (singular person) of the Elohiym (plural persons), as is stated again in Isa. 9:6:

    Isa_9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    Isa 9:6 כי־ילד ילד־לנו בן נתן־לנו ותהי המשׂרה על־שׁכמו ויקרא שׁמו פלא יועץ אל גבור אביעד שׂר־שׁלום׃

    Isa 9:6 Kiy-yeled yuLad-länû Bën niTan-länû waT'hiy haMis'räh al-shikh'mô waYiq'rä sh'mô Pele yôëtz ël GiBôr áviyad sar-shälôm

    Thus Jesus is both JEHOVAH Immanuel, and one El, of the Elohiym (persons).
     
  11. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    When Jesus was in his pre-mortal life he was just in 'spirit' form. I say 'just spirit' form because this form is not the 'end' or 'final' or 'most glorious' or 'most godly' form. He had to wait to come into his final form until after he was resurrected with his perfect, indestructible, highly mobile, multi-faceted body of flesh and bone and spirit. Until his resurrection his perfection, and glory were not full.

    He was mortal and looked forward to being like God, his Father, and thought it not robbery to be like his Father, which set the tone for all men to look forward to the time that they too, could be resurrected into a perfect, indestructible, highly mobile, multi-faceted body of flesh and bone and spirit, just like Jesus. Also for men to think it not robbery to be like Jesus, who thought it not robbery to be like God the Father.

    Jesus is now just like God and sits on his right side, waiting for his second coming.

    BTW, his actual mortal name is Jesus, which the angel Gabriel told Mary to name him. (Luke 2:31) The name Jesus is derived from the Hebrew name Yeshua, which is based on the Semitic root y-š-ʕ (Hebrew: ישע‎), meaning "to deliver; to rescue."
     
  12. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    He has a body, but has to keep sitting there?
     
  13. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    Notice, Jesus did not think it was robbery (theft) of God the Father's glory, to "be equal with God (the Father)". Jesus is equal with the Father, and said so Himself:

    Joh_5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God

    Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

    Notice, it was Jesus Himself, who "made himself of no reputation", which means He had such "reputation" as the Father had before He made this decision, and that Jesus "took upon him(self) the form of a servant", which means beforehand, He had eternally been in the "form of God", and was "equal" to the Father, even as John says, in John 1:1, ever having been "with" His Father.

    Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Jesus humbled Himself. Phil 2 is not about Jesus 'going up' (exaltation), but about 'going down' (humbling).

    Jesus didn't 'know' that He could be equal with God, He already knew that He was (I AM) equal with His Father:

    Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    Notice, that Jesus existed before Abraham, and not merely a short time before Abraham, for the koine Greek, as well as the English demonstrate that Jesus eternally existed before Abraham, for it reads "I AM", which is showing that as long as one can think of the past, there Jesus was, and there was never a time when the Son of the Father was not.[/QUOTE]

    Why does the scripture say "being in the form of God"? Why does it not say "being God" Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God?

    We do not reverse Phil 2, we allow it to stand as it is. Jesus was in the "form of God", but until he went through his mortal mission and was resurrected and exalted, he was only in the "form of God". After his mission and resurrection he sat down on the right side of the Father and was a God in his own right.
    So Jesus went from 'form of God' in his pre-mortal glory, to 'mortal being', humbling himself even unto death, and then being resurrected and exalted, and took on the full glory of God, or 'a God'.

    We also can be one with Jesus and his Father:
    John 17:20-21 King James Version (KJV)
    20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word.
    21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    IOW, everything Jesus thought was not robbery to be like God, normal humans can have those same thoughts.
     
  14. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    IT SAYS NO SUCH THING! It says Jesus is equal to God. It does not say that at some time He was not equal--doesn't even imply it. He was in the form, of God before He became human. He was equal to God before, during and after His humanity.
    5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
     
  15. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    What you all fail to recognize is that when God forgives, He forgives totally and completely and forgets your sins! David is dead and buried and will be resurrected completely forgiven and will stand in the presence of the Holy God! PLEASE STATE ONE VERSE WHERE GOD SAYS HE PARTIALLY FORGIVES!

    Mic_7:19 He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

    Isa 1:18 - Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

    Isa 55:7 - Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

    Ps 86:5 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
    For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee.

    Micah 7:18 Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

    Never does it say that He partially forgives and that some will not enter completely into His presence.
    You will either be in His presence or not---if you can't be completely in His presence--you will die.
     
  16. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    And where, besides the writings of JS--do you find such an untrue declaration?
     
  17. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Doctrine and Covenants 18
    22 And as many as repent and are baptized in my name, which is Jesus Christ, and endure to the end, the same shall be saved.
    23 Behold, Jesus Christ is the name which is given of the Father, and there is none other name given whereby man can be saved;

    47 Behold, I, Jesus Christ, your Lord and your God, and your Redeemer, by the power of my Spirit have spoken it. Amen.
     
  18. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what you mean?
     
  19. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    From the bible, tell me what form Jesus was in before his mortal ministry. Thank you.
     
  20. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    This is true, so are you just agreeing with me that his actual name is Jesus or Jesus Christ. Christ is not a last name, but a title. We really should say, Jesus the Christ.
     
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