LDS Beliefs...true or false

[Frankie]

Ok, I have seen a great deal of "we don't believe that" and "yes, you do believe that" going back and forth so..... I am going to make a list of things that I understand to be beliefs and teachings within the lds church and you all can tell me if I am right or wrong and if I am wrong, please provide the contrary teaching that shows this. Thank You. (this list is long and not just a list of things I have learned on this forum but from other lds and web-sites also)

1. man can become gods, not God the father but gods of their own.

2. God the father will always be "more progressed" then the man that becomes a god because God the father has been a god longer and is more progressed.

3. Marital relationships that are sealed in the lds temples will continue after death if the "sealed" couple lives the lds commandments.

4. Christians outside the lds church are still Christians but they are Christians that don't have the full "truth" to get them to eternal life with God the father.

5. Water baptism is required to make it to the highest level of glory in the kingdoms.

6. One must be sealed to a spouse in the lds temple to make it to the highest level in the highest degree of glory.

7. People who did not hear the lds gospel in this life are given a chance in a spirit prison in the next life to hear the lds gospel and reject it or accept it.

8. Those who reject the lds gospel recieve one of the lower kingdoms of glory for eternity and do not go to the celestial (highest kingdom) to live with God forever.

9. How you follow the lds commandments determines what level of kingdom you will spend eternity in.

10. There is good to be found in all religions, not just Christian ones. All belief systems have a "form" of truth.

11. All religions, even non-Christian ones ,worship the same god, some just interpert him differently.

12. The Christian creeds that teach of a trinune God are an abomination to God but the lds creed of the Articles of faith, is God's truth.

13. God is not a triune God that is 3 persons in one being but rather is 3 seperate beings that serve one purpose.

14. The prophets of the lds church are only prophets when they say they are (speaking as prophets) and their words are not the words from God unless the prophet is speaking as a prophet and says that what he is stating is from God.

15. LDS temple works can only be performed in lds temples, not in regular church houses.

16. LDS build temples that are lavish and expensive because they believe God requires it that way.

17. LDS consider those who speak out against their churches teachings to be doing the devils work and to be bitter or ignorant people with an agenda rooted in hatred.

18. No one can know if they are really saved to heaven or not until "the judgement day", they can only do their best and hope it was good enough.

19. That the Bible has many many errors in it and that God did not preserve it with the full messege He intended, therefore other "books" are required.

20. That the BofM is a history of people who came from Isreal to the Americas.

21. That the garden of Eden was orginally where Jackson County Missouri, USA is now.

22. When Jesus returns, He will have His temple in Jackson County Missouri where the LDS believe is the New Jeruselem.

23. The lds and all who come to the lds church are God's chosen people.

24. Everyone will recieve a ressurected eternal body and will go to one of the lds kingdoms of glory when they die or to outerdarkness.

25. The only people that will go to eternal hell (which is called outerdarkness) are those that had the "fullness of the lds gospel" and then denied it.

26. Hell is not a litteral place of fire and eternal torment but rather a state of mind of knowing you could have had more.

27. It is ok when you are lds, to investigate and attend other churches, as long as you don't speak out against the lds church or it's teachings.

28. The lds church is the only church that has true authority from God to baptize and call people to church services. Baptisms and callings from other sources have no authority and are not valid.

29. Members of the lds church are required to prove to the leadership of the church, that they have repented of a sin before the leadership will consider them worthy of blessings such as temple recommends, church callings, and in some cases, church membership.

30. If you are a Christian, you only have the Holy Spirit now and then but you do not have the HOly Spirit to live within you until you are confirmed a member of the LDS church by lds priesthood holders.

31. The holy spirit will leave you if you sin.

32. Those who truly have Jesus or want truth, will become lds.

33. Feelings are a determining factor of truth.

34. The lds Word of Wisdom is more a suggestion than a commandment but you must follow some parts of it to recieve an lds temple recommend.

35. Jesus did not pay the price for sin in full to all who come to him but rather just made it possible for all man to recieve a ressurected body and obtain eternal progression through their obeying of the lds commandments.

36. Jesus is the litteral son of God and God the Father is not spirit but rather flesh and bone like Jesus and has a spirit.

37. All mankind are the litteral spirit children of God and lived with Him as spirits in a pre-existance before coming to earth.

38. All man kind is eternal, not that God alone existed before any and everything else. That all man existed as a form of intellegence before God took their intellegence and formed it into spirits and later into earthly man.

39. That angels are not a seperate creation from humanity but rather are spirit children of God or ressurected men.

40. Teachings of past lds leaders are to be considered only opinion if they contradict current lds teachings and beliefs.

41. LDS do not consider the face of baal, the inverted pentagram or the goats head to be pagan or satanic symbols but rather believe they have a different meaning and use them in carvings on some of their temples. (SLC and Nahvoo temples)

42. LDS believe that man can work toward perfection.

43. Believe that Christ atoned for the sins of man in the Garden of Gethsemene but "the job was finished" when he died on the cross.

44. Believe that faith is a work and one must prove to God that they have true faith in Him.

45. Believe that R rated movies are not to be watched but cartoons of half naked women are not just ok, but bring glory to God (LOLOLO, that one I threw in as a funny for spike and A_S's benefit)

46. Believe that those who are in the Celestial kingdom will be able to "go down" and visit those in the lower kingdoms but those in the lower kingdoms will not be able to leave their "state of glory" to visit those in higher kingdoms.

47. only those who have proven that they are worthy are allowed to attend the lds temple and recieve the "higher" teachings of "the gospel".


Ok, those are the ones I can think of right now. If more come to mind, I will add them.

Anyway, I am interested to see how right or how wrong I am on these.

God Bless,
Frankie

 

[Doc T]

Thank You. (this list is long and not just a list of things I have learned on this forum but from other lds and web-sites also)
<snip>

God Bless,
Frankie

Wow Frankie, that is quite a list. In a quick reading most are accurate, some partially and some are not accurate. I won't get a chance to address each one of them until Monday. If someone else wants to take a crack at them, be my guest. If no one has by Monday, then I will tackle them.

Doc

~

 

[Frankie]

Wow Frankie, that is quite a list. In a quick reading most are accurate, some partially and some are not accurate. I won't get a chance to address each one of them until Monday. If someone else wants to take a crack at them, be my guest. If no one has by Monday, then I will tackle them.

Doc

~

Thanks Doc, I look forward to your response.

 

[christopher123]

Ok, I have seen a great deal of "we don't believe that" and "yes, you do believe that" going back and forth so..... I am going to make a list of things that I understand to be beliefs and teachings within the lds church and you all can tell me if I am right or wrong and if I am wrong, please provide the contrary teaching that shows this. Thank You. (this list is long and not just a list of things I have learned on this forum but from other lds and web-sites also)

Let me give them a try Frankie. If I need to expound on something just let me know.

1. man can become gods, not God the father but gods of their own.

Sounds right, the teaching is that we can be as our father in heaven

God the father will always be "more progressed" then the man that becomes a god because God the father has been a god longer and is more progressed.

This sounds like some mormon was trying to explain something that very little is taught about. They are making sure you know that they aren't better than God the father

Marital relationships that are sealed in the lds temples will continue after death if the "sealed" couple lives the lds commandments.

Correct

4. Christians outside the lds church are still Christians but they are Christians that don't have the full "truth" to get them to eternal life with God the father.

Correct

5. Water baptism is required to make it to the highest level of glory in the kingdoms.

Depends upon what you mean by level and kindgdoms. LDS teachings are three kingdoms, and I have read/taught of three levels in the Celestial (highest), but I have never heard anything other than conjecture about what each level entails (baptism, endowment, sealing etc)

One must be sealed to a spouse in the lds temple to make it to the highest level in the highest degree of glory.

As above, that is all that is really talked about, and the goal.

7. People who did not hear the lds gospel in this life are given a chance in a spirit prison in the next life to hear the lds gospel and reject it or accept it.

Correct

8. Those who reject the lds gospel recieve one of the lower kingdoms of glory for eternity and do not go to the celestial (highest kingdom) to live with God forever.

Correct about God the father. I've heard it taught that Jesus and Holy Ghost can also drop down a level or two to visit.

9. How you follow the lds commandments determines what level of kingdom you will spend eternity in.

A better way to say this “how well you live up the covenants you made”

10. There is good to be found in all religions, not just Christian ones. All belief systems have a "form" of truth.

Correct, but “all” is a bit broad. Some satan worshiping child molesting belief system would not be seen as having truth.

11. All religions, even non-Christian ones ,worship the same god, some just interpert him differently.

I don't believe this is or was taught.

12. The Christian creeds that teach of a trinune God are an abomination to God but the lds creed of the Articles of faith, is God's truth.

Correct. It is funny how may things that were taught as an ” abomination “now are just taught as “misunderstood”. I guess it sounds better.

13. God is not a triune God that is 3 persons in one being but rather is 3 seperate beings that serve one purpose.

Correct. Why then dosn't the Holy Ghost have a body? Joseph F. Smith gave the best answer. “who cares?, why do need to know”

14. The prophets of the lds church are only prophets when they say they are (speaking as prophets) and their words are not the words from God unless the prophet is speaking as a prophet and says that what he is stating is from God.

No, he doesn't have to state it, it just has to line up with scriptures. Unless it is a new revelation, or unless he tells us ealier prophets just didn't understand very well the subject.

LDS temple works can only be performed in lds temples, not in regular church houses.

Correct, but this hasn't always been the case.

LDS build temples that are lavish and expensive because they believe God requires it that way.

I don't know about this. People are the ones who put prices on things.

17. LDS consider those who speak out against their churches teachings to be doing the devils work and to be bitter or ignorant people with an agenda rooted in hatred.

It probably depends upon how outspoken you are.

18. No one can know if they are really saved to heaven or not until "the judgement day", they can only do their best and hope it was good enough.

I think the the idea of this is humbleness, and the thought that we are called “believers” in Christ. The greek “eidos” for know, has what I think a good translation of “perceived knowledge”. I think that those who argue this are picking at words as Paul told the Romans not to do.

19. That the Bible has many many errors in it and that God did not preserve it with the full messege He intended, therefore other "books" are required.

Probably not salvation type errors, but human errors.

20. That the BofM is a history of people who came from Isreal to the Americas.

Correct

21. That the garden of Eden was orginally where Jackson County Missouri, USA is now.

Yea, but I it was Davis County, Missouri. Jackson County was for the new temple.

22. When Jesus returns, He will have His temple in Jackson County Missouri where the LDS believe is the New Jeruselem.

Yes, but New Jeruselem or Zion, also includes “old” Jeruselem too. He will rule spiritually from one and temporally from the other.

23. The lds and all who come to the lds church are God's chosen people.

Yes, but most are not like LeeU thinks.

24. Everyone will recieve a ressurected eternal body and will go to one of the lds kingdoms of glory when they die or to outerdarkness.

Not when they die, but after the millenium and last final judgement.

25. The only people that will go to eternal hell (which is called outerdarkness) are those that had the "fullness of the lds gospel" and then denied it.

Those who committed the unpardonable sin.

26. Hell is not a litteral place of fire and eternal torment but rather a state of mind of knowing you could have had more.

More of a state of not being with God.

It is ok when you are lds, to investigate and attend other churches, as long as you don't speak out against the lds church or it's teachings.

Probably depends upon your postion and vocalness.

28. The lds church is the only church that has true authority from God to baptize and call people to church services. Baptisms and callings from other sources have no authority and are not valid.

Not valid in the sight of God and eternal needs, but valid for that group.

29. Members of the lds church are required to prove to the leadership of the church, that they have repented of a sin before the leadership will consider them worthy of blessings such as temple recommends, church callings, and in some cases, church membership.

Depends upon what you mean as prove.

30. If you are a Christian, you only have the Holy Spirit now and then but you do not have the HOly Spirit to live within you until you are confirmed a member of the LDS church by lds priesthood holders.

Correct, it is called in the LDS world 'the Gift of the Holy Ghost”

31. The holy spirit will leave you if you sin.

No dwelling in an unclean temple allowed!

32. Those who truly have Jesus or want truth, will become lds.

Either in this life or the next if they didn't “truly” have an opportunity.

33.Feelings are a determining factor of truth.

There is that burning bosom again.

34. The lds Word of Wisdom is more a suggestion than a commandment but you must follow some parts of it to recieve an lds temple recommend.

Correct. The question asked is “Do you keep the Word of Wisdom”. It is your opinion if you do or do not.

35. Jesus did not pay the price for sin in full to all who come to him but rather just made it possible for all man to recieve a ressurected body and obtain eternal progression through their obeying of the lds commandments.

Correct. Not in full, because you still have to do all that you can.

36. Jesus is the litteral son of God and God the Father is not spirit but rather flesh and bone like Jesus and has a spirit.

Correct

37. All mankind are the litteral spirit children of God and lived with Him as spirits in a pre-existance before coming to earth.

Correct

38. All man kind is eternal, not that God alone existed before any and everything else. That all man existed as a form of intellegence before God took their intellegence and formed it into spirits and later into earthly man.

I've never heard that before. The Pratt's and Hyde's and Brigham has some early wild sermons though, it is possible it was said/taught. The wife said she was taught this.

39.That angels are not a seperate creation from humanity but rather are spirit children of God or ressurected men.

Correct

40. Teachings of past lds leaders are to be considered only opinion if they contradict current lds teachings and beliefs.

Correct. Living prophet takes precedent over dead one.

41. LDS do not consider the face of baal, the inverted pentagram or the goats head to be pagan or satanic symbols but rather believe they have a different meaning and use them in carvings on some of their temples. (SLC and Nahvoo temples)

You probably couldn't find 10 mormons who even know these things are carved on the temple.

42. LDS believe that man can work toward perfection.

Not only can, but should be.

43. Believe that Christ atoned for the sins of man in the Garden of Gethsemene but "the job was finished" when he died on the cross.

Most church teachings/readings on this (I think Talmage has some of the better) are that the garden and cross together were the atonement.

44. Believe that faith is a work and one must prove to God that they have true faith in Him.

I don't think I ever heard this one.

Believe that R rated movies are not to be watched but cartoons of half naked women are not just ok, but bring glory to God (LOLOLO, that one I threw in as a funny for spike and A_S's benefit)

That would depend upon if you were looking at them with you spiritual eyes like Martin Harris.

46. Believe that those who are in the Celestial kingdom will be able to "go down" and visit those in the lower kingdoms but those in the lower kingdoms will not be able to leave their "state of glory" to visit those in higher kingdoms.

This is/ has been taught.

47. only those who have proven that they are worthy are allowed to attend the lds temple and recieve the "higher" teachings of "the gospel".

Correct. As the saying goes, “How many temple worthy brethern are in your ward. We need workers at the veil”


How's that Frankie?

Thanks,

Chris <><

 

[fatboys]

Ok, I have seen a great deal of "we don't believe that" and "yes, you do believe that" going back and forth so..... I am going to make a list of things that I understand to be beliefs and teachings within the lds church and you all can tell me if I am right or wrong and if I am wrong, please provide the contrary teaching that shows this. Thank You. (this list is long and not just a list of things I have learned on this forum but from other lds and web-sites also)

1. man can become gods, not God the father but gods of their own.

FB: Almost

2. God the father will always be "more progressed" then the man that becomes a god because God the father has been a god longer and is more progressed.

FB: In knowledge and power, God is not increasing, but in Glory he is.

3. Marital relationships that are sealed in the lds temples will continue after death if the "sealed" couple lives the lds commandments.

FB: We are the only ones who believe this, why wouldn't we be the only ones that are sealed and married after this life?

4. Christians outside the lds church are still Christians but they are Christians that don't have the full "truth" to get them to eternal life with God the father.

FB: You don't need the full truth to live with God. The LDS certainly do not have the full truth. But we have more, and the increased truth sets us apart. If what we are saying is true, then it would make sense that ordinances which you do not believe in is that difference, and would place us with more truth, not full truth. If a person believed in Christ but not in the same way you believe it, is he saved?

5. Water baptism is required to make it to the highest level of glory in the kingdoms.

FB: Baptism is required to enter into the highest kingdom of God. This is not the highest level of glory in that kingdom.

6. One must be sealed to a spouse in the lds temple to make it to the highest level in the highest degree of glory.

FB: Since we are the only ones who believe this to be true, it would make sense that only LDS who are sealed in the Temple will be there.

7. People who did not hear the lds gospel in this life are given a chance in a spirit prison in the next life to hear the lds gospel and reject it or accept it.

FB: After death there is a partial judgment. Those that were willingly disobedient that they were wicked go to the spirit prison. Those who tried to live up to the knowledge of good, and lived that good over evil to the best of their abilities will go to paradise. The Gospel of Christ will be taught in both places. And in both places, these people will be given a chance to accept it or reject it.

8. Those who reject the lds gospel recieve one of the lower kingdoms of glory for eternity and do not go to the celestial (highest kingdom) to live with God forever.

FB: Since if what we teach is true and there have been ordinances and covenants which are necessary in order to be found worthy, then yes.

9. How you follow the lds commandments determines what level of kingdom you will spend eternity in.

FB: How you follow Christ's commandments and the restoration he brought about and our acceptance of his commandments determines where we will be.

10. There is good to be found in all religions, not just Christian ones. All belief systems have a "form" of truth.

FB: All belief systems that teach Good, do Good, these truths are of God.

11. All religions, even non-Christian ones ,worship the same god, some just interpert him differently.

FB: The need for man to worship God is given to him from God. It is the light of Christ which helps man in this. The clarity of the character of God may be different and certainly may be mistaken in how the true character of God is, but there is only one God the Father. Many times when God condemned his children for worshipping other Gods, it is because they turned away from truth they already had. Man does this. But that does not take away from the good truths they have in their beliefs. Today they do not know any other God than the one they were raised to believe in. Elements of the pure gospel can be seen in almost all religions.

12. The Christian creeds that teach of a trinune God are an abomination to God but the lds creed of the Articles of faith, is God's truth.

FB: Many truths are found in these creeds, but it is not complete, and does not portray the true character of God. The Abomination is because it was not inspired by God, but written by man.

13. God is not a triune God that is 3 persons in one being but rather is 3 seperate beings that serve one purpose.

FB: Yes

14. The prophets of the lds church are only prophets when they say they are (speaking as prophets) and their words are not the words from God unless the prophet is speaking as a prophet and says that what he is stating is from God.

FB: Prophets are here to not only prophesy, but guide and direct through inspiration. They are always prophets twenty four seven. If God wants them to bring revelation to his people, they are ready twenty four seven. But God does not connect with them twenty four seven and they have their own opinions and ideas, because God gave them a brain as he has given to all of us. God did not make them infallible, and they are just men. The only thing God has to work with. If God wants something for his people to be known as scripture or doctrine then he set up a process which was true from the beginning of the modern church. It may confuse you because you want perfection and a double standard, yet ancient prophets did not live up to the very guide lines you want to place on LDS Prophets. Looking through rose colored glasses.

15. LDS temple works can only be performed in lds temples, not in regular church houses.

FB: Temple works can be performed where God wants them to be performed. God has given this authority to man and can designate any building. But we build Temples to show our adoration towards God in faith.

16. LDS build temples that are lavish and expensive because they believe God requires it that way.

FB: This is the Lord's House. Would you want anything else but the best for God's House? Wouldn't you want a place that was as perfect and beautiful as man can come as close to in this life?

17. LDS consider those who speak out against their churches teachings to be doing the devils work and to be bitter or ignorant people with an agenda rooted in hatred.

FB: If a person came here who had never heard of the LDS religion and read the comments and statements made by many here, they would come to the same conclusion. And as far as doing the devils work, if this is the true restored church, then they would be fighting against the church of the Lamb of God. What would you conclude?

18. No one can know if they are really saved to heaven or not until "the judgement day", they can only do their best and hope it was good enough.

FB: If a person does his best, and follows Christ, in the restored church to his best ability, he is going to the celestial kingdom. Of course all of this is done through faith.

19. That the Bible has many many errors in it and that God did not preserve it with the full messege He intended, therefore other "books" are required.

FB: The facts are that many scripturs were left out of the bible. And it was translated by uninspired man. But the fullness of the Gospel is contained in the bible. Clarity came about through modern prophets, and more scripture. Also the most important book is another testament that Christ lived and was real. This Book is for the convincing of the jew and gentile that Jesus is the Christ.

20. That the BofM is a history of people who came from Isreal to the Americas.

FB: It is a record of God's dealings with those who came from that part of the world.

21. That the garden of Eden was orginally where Jackson County Missouri, USA is now.

FB: Yup

22. When Jesus returns, He will have His temple in Jackson County Missouri where the LDS believe is the New Jeruselem.

FB: More to it than that.

23. The lds and all who come to the lds church are God's chosen people.

FB: Chosen to do what?

24. Everyone will recieve a ressurected eternal body and will go to one of the lds kingdoms of glory when they die or to outerdarkness.

FB: Close

25. The only people that will go to eternal hell (which is called outerdarkness) are those that had the "fullness of the lds gospel" and then denied it.

FB: Those who go to outer darkness are those who blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, which is that they have a perfect knowledge of Christ and then deny it. Very few have or will do this.

26. Hell is not a litteral place of fire and eternal torment but rather a state of mind of knowing you could have had more.

FB: Satan will be in Hell or outer darkness where he and others he had power over will live for etenity. Hell for those who did not live up to their knowledge will be faced with what they could have had and live with that perfect knowledge for eternity.

27. It is ok when you are lds, to investigate and attend other churches, as long as you don't speak out against the lds church or it's teachings.

FB: Huh? This is a no brainer.

28. The lds church is the only church that has true authority from God to baptize and call people to church services. Baptisms and callings from other sources have no authority and are not valid.

FB: Close

29. Members of the lds church are required to prove to the leadership of the church, that they have repented of a sin before the leadership will consider them worthy of blessings such as temple recommends, church callings, and in some cases, church membership.

FB: I sin and still go to the Temple. There are things you can not do and go to the Temple. You do our very best to live according to the teachings of Christ.

30. If you are a Christian, you only have the Holy Spirit now and then but you do not have the HOly Spirit to live within you until you are confirmed a member of the LDS church by lds priesthood holders.

FB: Close

31. The holy spirit will leave you if you sin.

FB: Not sure what you mean by this.

32. Those who truly have Jesus or want truth, will become lds.

FB: Many Christians have Jesus and faith in Jesus. They have the truth they can accept. But there is more.

33. Feelings are a determining factor of truth.

FB: That is what you said also.

34. The lds Word of Wisdom is more a suggestion than a commandment but you must follow some parts of it to recieve an lds temple recommend.

FB: It is a commadment, and it has to be followed to the best of our abilities.

35. Jesus did not pay the price for sin in full to all who come to him but rather just made it possible for all man to recieve a ressurected body and obtain eternal progression through their obeying of the lds commandments.

FB: Christ paid in full the sin for all who have sinned or ever will sin. That does not mean that the sin is forgiven. But only paid for. It is up to us to be forgiven of our sin through obedience and asking for forgiveness by not committing that sin.

36. Jesus is the litteral son of God and God the Father is not spirit but rather flesh and bone like Jesus and has a spirit.

Yup

37. All mankind are the litteral spirit children of God and lived with Him as spirits in a pre-existance before coming to earth.

Yup

38. All man kind is eternal, not that God alone existed before any and everything else. That all man existed as a form of intellegence before God took their intellegence and formed it into spirits and later into earthly man.

FB: Close

39. That angels are not a seperate creation from humanity but rather are spirit children of God or ressurected men.

FB: Close

40. Teachings of past lds leaders are to be considered only opinion if they contradict current lds teachings and beliefs.[/quote]

FB: I don't think you will ever understand this concept fully.

41. LDS do not consider the face of baal, the inverted pentagram or the goats head to be pagan or satanic symbols but rather believe they have a different meaning and use them in carvings on some of their temples. (SLC and Nahvoo temples)

FB: You will never understand this either.

42. LDS believe that man can work toward perfection.

FB: Perfection takes hard work.

[/quote]43. Believe that Christ atoned for the sins of man in the Garden of Gethsemene but "the job was finished" when he died on the cross.[/quote]

FB: Close

[/quote]44. Believe that faith is a work and one must prove to God that they have true faith in Him.[/quote]

Close

Try again

 

[SiSSYGAL]

Hi Frankie:
Interesting list. I would like additional information on one thing: the business of the temple. I know they are elaborate because Mormons believe god dwells there. But, there are so many temples and Mormons also believe God is flesh and bone. If god was spirit, then it could plausibly be so, but since he's flesh then, I'm not sure. How does this work?

 

[Frankie]

Hi Frankie:
Interesting list. I would like additional information on one thing: the business of the temple. I know they are elaborate because Mormons believe god dwells there. But, there are so many temples and Mormons also believe God is flesh and bone. If god was spirit, then it could plausibly be so, but since he's flesh then, I'm not sure. How does this work?

What an excellent point, I had not even considered that.

Frankie

 

[Frankie]

How's that Frankie?

Thanks,

Chris <><

LOL, good I guess. Your answers were brief and to the point without rudeness and I very much appreciate that. I am going to go through both of you and fatboys posts again, because I did see a few things I had questions on, I hope you don't mind answering a few question? Thanks for the answers.

God Bless,
Frankie

 

[Frankie]

1. man can become gods, not God the father but gods of their own.

FB: Almost
Amost in what way?
Quote:2. God the father will always be "more progressed" then the man that becomes a god because God the father has been a god longer and is more progressed.

FB: In knowledge and power, God is not increasing, but in Glory he is.

His Power and knowlege is not His Glory? How is He increasing in Glory and what do lds believe His Glory to be?



Quote:3. Marital relationships that are sealed in the lds temples will continue after death if the "sealed" couple lives the lds commandments.

FB: We are the only ones who believe this, why wouldn't we be the only ones that are sealed and married after this life?

Some people believe in re-incarnation, however, just because they are the only people that believe that, does not make it so.

I will take this one as a "yes/correct"


Quote:4. Christians outside the lds church are still Christians but they are Christians that don't have the full "truth" to get them to eternal life with God the father.

FB: You don't need the full truth to live with God. The LDS certainly do not have the full truth. But we have more, and the increased truth sets us apart. If what we are saying is true, then it would make sense that ordinances which you do not believe in is that difference, and would place us with more truth, not full truth. If a person believed in Christ but not in the same way you believe it, is he saved?

Anyone who puts their trust in the true Christ is saved.

I will take this as another "yes/correct"


Quote:5. Water baptism is required to make it to the highest level of glory in the kingdoms.

FB: Baptism is required to enter into the highest kingdom of God. This is not the highest level of glory in that kingdom.

another "yes/correct"



Quote:6. One must be sealed to a spouse in the lds temple to make it to the highest level in the highest degree of glory.

FB: Since we are the only ones who believe this to be true, it would make sense that only LDS who are sealed in the Temple will be there.

another "yes/correct"



Quote:7. People who did not hear the lds gospel in this life are given a chance in a spirit prison in the next life to hear the lds gospel and reject it or accept it.

FB: After death there is a partial judgment. Those that were willingly disobedient that they were wicked go to the spirit prison. Those who tried to live up to the knowledge of good, and lived that good over evil to the best of their abilities will go to paradise. The Gospel of Christ will be taught in both places. And in both places, these people will be given a chance to accept it or reject it.

another "yes/correct" this is what I said, without all the extra words.



Quote:8. Those who reject the lds gospel recieve one of the lower kingdoms of glory for eternity and do not go to the celestial (highest kingdom) to live with God forever.

FB: Since if what we teach is true and there have been ordinances and covenants which are necessary in order to be found worthy, then yes.

ok, good. another "yes/correct"



Quote:9. How you follow the lds commandments determines what level of kingdom you will spend eternity in.

FB: How you follow Christ's commandments and the restoration he brought about and our acceptance of his commandments determines where we will be.

Christ's commandments according to lds beliefs.

another "yes,correct"


Quote:10. There is good to be found in all religions, not just Christian ones. All belief systems have a "form" of truth.

FB: All belief systems that teach Good, do Good, these truths are of God.

OK, so as long as the belief systems teach at least one good thing, they have a "form" of truth. I see.



Quote:11. All religions, even non-Christian ones ,worship the same god, some just interpert him differently.

FB: The need for man to worship God is given to him from God. It is the light of Christ which helps man in this. The clarity of the character of God may be different and certainly may be mistaken in how the true character of God is, but there is only one God the Father. Many times when God condemned his children for worshipping other Gods, it is because they turned away from truth they already had. Man does this. But that does not take away from the good truths they have in their beliefs. Today they do not know any other God than the one they were raised to believe in. Elements of the pure gospel can be seen in almost all religions.

another "yes/correct"



Quote:12. The Christian creeds that teach of a trinune God are an abomination to God but the lds creed of the Articles of faith, is God's truth.

FB: Many truths are found in these creeds, but it is not complete, and does not portray the true character of God. The Abomination is because it was not inspired by God, but written by man.

Didn't you just say that beliefs that have good in them are of God? Wouldn't this mean that the creeds that Joseph Smith said were an abomination to God where actually partcially inspired of God because they have "many truths" in them?



Quote:13. God is not a triune God that is 3 persons in one being but rather is 3 seperate beings that serve one purpose.

FB: Yes

Simple, to the point, uncluttered by words, answer. I like that.



Quote:14. The prophets of the lds church are only prophets when they say they are (speaking as prophets) and their words are not the words from God unless the prophet is speaking as a prophet and says that what he is stating is from God.

FB: Prophets are here to not only prophesy, but guide and direct through inspiration. They are always prophets twenty four seven. If God wants them to bring revelation to his people, they are ready twenty four seven. But God does not connect with them twenty four seven and they have their own opinions and ideas, because God gave them a brain as he has given to all of us. God did not make them infallible, and they are just men. The only thing God has to work with. If God wants something for his people to be known as scripture or doctrine then he set up a process which was true from the beginning of the modern church. It may confuse you because you want perfection and a double standard, yet ancient prophets did not live up to the very guide lines you want to place on LDS Prophets. Looking through rose colored glasses.

I want perfection and a double standard? I am glad you know what I want so well, I was not even aware that this was a "want" of mine. Exactly what guidelines do I want to place on LDS prophets? Please tell me, since I have not stated what guidelines I want to place on LDS prophets, perhaps you could tell me. You seem to know me so well, even better than I know myself since you are stating that I want things that I didn't even know I wanted.

I actually do have a pair of rose colored sun glasses, I wear them a lot because my husband says I look pretty in them but I am not looking through them right now.



Quote:15. LDS temple works can only be performed in lds temples, not in regular church houses.

FB: Temple works can be performed where God wants them to be performed. God has given this authority to man and can designate any building. But we build Temples to show our adoration towards God in faith.

So, God doesn't care where these temple works are performed but man does them only in the LDS temples because doing them in the temples proves their faith more?



Quote:16. LDS build temples that are lavish and expensive because they believe God requires it that way.another "yes/correct"

FB: This is the Lord's House. Would you want anything else but the best for God's House?

I heard almost these exact words from Jan on the Trinity Broadcasting Network years ago when they were doing more lavish additions to their studios. I can't remember now what exactly their additions were (probably a few more gold plated chairs and some more silk and velvet curtians or microphones with diamond plated handles..hehe) I didn't agree with them either.

God does not live in temples made of stone with the hands of man. My God already has the best, He is creator of the universe, me trying to out do that with a fancy building that cost a lot of money does nothing to impress my God. Jesus fullfilled the law and made the purpose of the temples no longer nessesary, I can go directly to my God through Jesus, I would not even try to put back up a veil that God himself tore in two.

Wouldn't you want a place that was as perfect and beautiful as man can come as close to in this life?

Refer to what I said above. The bodies of all believers are the temple of God and if the Spirit of God is willing to take up residence in the bodies of such imperfect people, I hardly think He is conserned with fancy buildings that have the best that "the world" has to offer. What can you offer a God that already has everything? You can offer Him your heart. He made this earth, He can make Himself a temple of lavish wealth if He likes but because He has given us free-will, He will not force anyone to love Him....so what can you offer a God who has everything....you can offer Him your deepest love.

Quote:17. LDS consider those who speak out against their churches teachings to be doing the devils work and to be bitter or ignorant people with an agenda rooted in hatred.

FB: If a person came here who had never heard of the LDS religion and read the comments and statements made by many here, they would come to the same conclusion. And as far as doing the devils work, if this is the true restored church, then they would be fighting against the church of the Lamb of God. What would you conclude?

again, another "yes/correct"



Quote:18. No one can know if they are really saved to heaven or not until "the judgement day", they can only do their best and hope it was good enough.

FB: If a person does his best, and follows Christ, in the restored church to his best ability, he is going to the celestial kingdom. Of course all of this is done through faith.

How do you know when you "best" is "good enough" ? You have to wait until the judgement to find out, correct? If so, then this is another "yes/correct"



Quote:19. That the Bible has many many errors in it and that God did not preserve it with the full messege He intended, therefore other "books" are required.

FB: The facts are that many scripturs were left out of the bible. And it was translated by uninspired man. But the fullness of the Gospel is contained in the bible. Clarity came about through modern prophets, and more scripture. Also the most important book is another testament that Christ lived and was real. This Book is for the convincing of the jew and gentile that Jesus is the Christ.

another "yes/correct"



Quote:20. That the BofM is a history of people who came from Isreal to the Americas.

FB: It is a record of God's dealings with those who came from that part of the world.

another "yes/correct"



Quote:21. That the garden of Eden was orginally where Jackson County Missouri, USA is now.

FB: Yup

and another



Quote:22. When Jesus returns, He will have His temple in Jackson County Missouri where the LDS believe is the New Jeruselem.

FB: More to it than that.

Ok, so what I stated is correct but there is also more to it? Such as?

Quote:

23. The lds and all who come to the lds church are God's chosen people.

FB: Chosen to do what?

Chosen to be His one true church of believers and to have valid athority from Him to "do His will for the kingdom of God"

Quote:

24. Everyone will recieve a ressurected eternal body and will go to one of the lds kingdoms of glory when they die or to outerdarkness.

FB: Close

and?

Quote:

25. The only people that will go to eternal hell (which is called outerdarkness) are those that had the "fullness of the lds gospel" and then denied it.

FB: Those who go to outer darkness are those who blaspheme against the Holy Ghost, which is that they have a perfect knowledge of Christ and then deny it. Very few have or will do this.

and to have a perfect knowlege of Christ, one would have to have believed in and taken part in the lds "convenants", correct?

Quote:

26. Hell is not a litteral place of fire and eternal torment but rather a state of mind of knowing you could have had more.

FB: Satan will be in Hell or outer darkness where he and others he had power over will live for etenity. Hell for those who did not live up to their knowledge will be faced with what they could have had and live with that perfect knowledge for eternity.

another "yes/correct"

Quote:

27. It is ok when you are lds, to investigate and attend other churches, as long as you don't speak out against the lds church or it's teachings.

FB: Huh? This is a no brainer.

another "yes/correct"

Quote:

28. The lds church is the only church that has true authority from God to baptize and call people to church services. Baptisms and callings from other sources have no authority and are not valid.

FB: Close

and?

Quote:

29. Members of the lds church are required to prove to the leadership of the church, that they have repented of a sin before the leadership will consider them worthy of blessings such as temple recommends, church callings, and in some cases, church membership.

FB: I sin and still go to the Temple. There are things you can not do and go to the Temple. You do our very best to live according to the teachings of Christ.

Which exact "sins" will keep you from a church calling, the temple or church membership? Which specific sins are considered bad enough that one has to prove to the leaders, over a period of time that they have truly repented?

Quote:

30. If you are a Christian, you only have the Holy Spirit now and then but you do not have the HOly Spirit to live within you until you are confirmed a member of the LDS church by lds priesthood holders.

FB: Close

and?

Quote:

31. The holy spirit will leave you if you sin.

FB: Not sure what you mean by this.

Just what it says.

Quote:

32. Those who truly have Jesus or want truth, will become lds.

FB: Many Christians have Jesus and faith in Jesus. They have the truth they can accept. But there is more.

another "yes/correct"

Quote:

33. Feelings are a determining factor of truth.

FB: That is what you said also.

I have never said that feelings are a determining factor of truth!!! I said that if feelings do not line up with the Word of God, they are not of God and that the Word of God determines truth, feelings that are backed up with the Word of God are truth, feelings that are not backed up by the Word of God are not of God.

Quote:

34. The lds Word of Wisdom is more a suggestion than a commandment but you must follow some parts of it to recieve an lds temple recommend.

FB: It is a commadment, and it has to be followed to the best of our abilities.

Well, it seems that other lds disagree with you on this one.

Quote:

35. Jesus did not pay the price for sin in full to all who come to him but rather just made it possible for all man to recieve a ressurected body and obtain eternal progression through their obeying of the lds commandments.

FB: Christ paid in full the sin for all who have sinned or ever will sin. That does not mean that the sin is forgiven. But only paid for. It is up to us to be forgiven of our sin through obedience and asking for forgiveness by not committing that sin.

So in other words, it was not paid in full for those who would accept Him, but rather only for those that work hard enough to earn it and even then it is not in full because the person has to keep doing more and more to earn it.

Quote:

36. Jesus is the litteral son of God and God the Father is not spirit but rather flesh and bone like Jesus and has a spirit.

Yup


I really like those quick "yup"'s

Quote:

37. All mankind are the litteral spirit children of God and lived with Him as spirits in a pre-existance before coming to earth.

Yup

alright, another one...we are on a role here.

Quote:

38. All man kind is eternal, not that God alone existed before any and everything else. That all man existed as a form of intellegence before God took their intellegence and formed it into spirits and later into earthly man.

FB: Close

and?

Quote:

39. That angels are not a seperate creation from humanity but rather are spirit children of God or ressurected men.

FB: Close
and?

40. Teachings of past lds leaders are to be considered only opinion if they contradict current lds teachings and beliefs.[/quote]FB: I don't think you will ever understand this concept fully.

Because I am an idiot or because I have a "dimmer light" of Christ in me?

Quote:

41. LDS do not consider the face of baal, the inverted pentagram or the goats head to be pagan or satanic symbols but rather believe they have a different meaning and use them in carvings on some of their temples. (SLC and Nahvoo temples)

FB: You will never understand this either.

idiot or dimmer light of christ?

Quote:

42. LDS believe that man can work toward perfection.

FB: Perfection takes hard work.

Yes, thank Heaven that Jesus is perfection for me.

[/quote]43. Believe that Christ atoned for the sins of man in the Garden of Gethsemene but "the job was finished" when he died on the cross.[/quote]FB: Close

and?

[/quote]44. Believe that faith is a work and one must prove to God that they have true faith in Him.[/quote]Close
and?

Try again

You know fatboys, all your snideness towards me aside, I have to say that I think I did pretty well with this list considering .

Frankie

 

[usetheforce]

Hi Frankie:
Interesting list. I would like additional information on one thing: the business of the temple. I know they are elaborate because Mormons believe god dwells there. But, there are so many temples and Mormons also believe God is flesh and bone. If god was spirit, then it could plausibly be so, but since he's flesh then, I'm not sure. How does this work?

Holiness to the Lord, the House of the Lord.
God's "Spirit" dwells there less abated by the influences of the world, and He sometimes appears to fullfill His Purposes to the faithful.
Also, God's body is Perfected, meaning it is refined matter, not corrupt matter as man's bodies are.

There is an old saying in Science, "nothing can be destroyed, it only "changes"."
Matter is Eternal, and Spirit is a form of matter, but even more refined, but yet it is Power, thus it still has Form.
God Dwells in His Temples, because the world is kept at bay, and a Bridge is Created connecting Heaven and Earth, so His Spirit is less hindered.

This is one way of explaining the issue.

 

[usetheforce]

Brother Frankie..... Might I mention that many of your "another yes/correct's", were not actually correct.
Fatboys, while very short, actually clarified and more corrected your statements.
Thus, many weren't actually "corrects", they had significant improvements and corrections that needed to be made to make them actually more representative of LDS Doctrine or belief.

Nevertheless, I also noticed that you kept mostly inbounds with what is actually our beliefs, and didn't really include anything that most of this forum actually rehashes over and over.
Thus, if I recall, your intention of making this post was to find out what you or others on this forum are actually believing wrong about LDS, since LDS have been chastising critics and anti's for their significant corruptions and misinterpretations of LDS doctrines and history.
Your post hence was very "benign" in relation to the problems that has been discussed recently.

Essentially, you formed your statements specifically so that you would actually be more accurate because of the benign (though sometimes unique to LDS) material you include, thus your post really doesn't accomplish what I believe you wished to find out.
Though, wether you did this intentionally or without consciously realizing it, I know not.
Few of the "controversial" things that are always discussed were not included.

 

[fatboys]

[
FB: Almost
Amost in what way?

FB: As one pointed out earlier, you believe that God became man. We believe that God commanded us to become like him. So as Man is, God became, and we now are progressing to become like the Father.


Quote:2. God the father will always be "more progressed" then the man that becomes a god because God the father has been a god longer and is more progressed.

FB: In knowledge and power, God is not increasing, but in Glory he is.

His Power and knowlege is not His Glory? How is He increasing in Glory and what do lds believe His Glory to be?[/quote]

FB: The glory of God is intelligence. As God helps us to progress to become like him, his purpose is fulfilled and we become his glory. God's purpose is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

:3. Marital relationships that are sealed in the lds temples will continue after death if the "sealed" couple lives the lds commandments.

FB: We are the only ones who believe this, why wouldn't we be the only ones that are sealed and married after this life?

Some people believe in re-incarnation, however, just because they are the only people that believe that, does not make it so.

I will take this one as a "yes/correct"

FB: Just because you believe you are saved through faith only does not make it so. Just because you do not believe there is marriage after death does not make it so. It is your belief, and faith. I know if I am true and faithful to Christ I will be eternally connected to my wife in marriage. To know that such a great person will be with me side by side humbles me. To know that together as we helped one another in this life in following the Savior, brings unimaginable blessings being able to be with my wife in marriage as we follow Christ in the next life.


[Quote:]4. Christians outside the lds church are still Christians but they are Christians that don't have the full "truth" to get them to eternal life with God the father.

FB: You don't need the full truth to live with God. The LDS certainly do not have the full truth. But we have more, and the increased truth sets us apart. If what we are saying is true, then it would make sense that ordinances which you do not believe in is that difference, and would place us with more truth, not full truth. If a person believed in Christ but not in the same way you believe it, is he saved?

Anyone who puts their trust in the true Christ is saved.

I will take this as another "yes/correct"[/quote]

FB: Then I am saved

:5. Water baptism is required to make it to the highest level of glory in the kingdoms.

FB: Baptism is required to enter into the highest kingdom of God. This is not the highest level of glory in that kingdom.

another "yes/correct"

FB: No/incorrect. There are differing levels in the Celestial kingdom as there are in all God's kingdoms. The only requirement to enter the Celestial is baptism. In order to reach the highest level in the Celestial kingdom is to partake of the new and everlasting covenant, Eternal marriage.



Quote:6. One must be sealed to a spouse in the lds temple to make it to the highest level in the highest degree of glory.

FB: Since we are the only ones who believe this to be true, it would make sense that only LDS who are sealed in the Temple will be there.

another "yes/correct"

:7. People who did not hear the lds gospel in this life are given a chance in a spirit prison in the next life to hear the lds gospel and reject it or accept it.

FB: After death there is a partial judgment. Those that were willingly disobedient that they were wicked go to the spirit prison. Those who tried to live up to the knowledge of good, and lived that good over evil to the best of their abilities will go to paradise. The Gospel of Christ will be taught in both places. And in both places, these people will be given a chance to accept it or reject it.

another "yes/correct" this is what I said, without all the extra words.

FB: No you said that all who did not hear the gospel in this life go to spirit prison. I was correcting you by saying that there are two places where the gospel will be preached. Before the death of Christ, the gospel was only preached in paradise, Christ bridged the gulf between paradise and spirit prison, so that all who have died will have the opportunity to hear accept or reject the gospel.



Quote:8. Those who reject the lds gospel recieve one of the lower kingdoms of glory for eternity and do not go to the celestial (highest kingdom) to live with God forever.

FB: Since if what we teach is true and there have been ordinances and covenants which are necessary in order to be found worthy, then yes.

ok, good. another "yes/correct"

:9. How you follow the lds commandments determines what level of kingdom you will spend eternity in.

FB: How you follow Christ's commandments and the restoration he brought about and our acceptance of his commandments determines where we will be.

Christ's commandments according to lds beliefs.

another "yes,correct"

FB: Commandments according to all of Gods words.

:10. There is good to be found in all religions, not just Christian ones. All belief systems have a "form" of truth.

FB: All belief systems that teach Good, do Good, these truths are of God.

OK, so as long as the belief systems teach at least one good thing, they have a "form" of truth. I see.

FB: Sort of like what Christ told Joseph Smith about religions of his day. Just because the have truths in them does not make the right. But they do have truths, and truth is of God. Does not make any difference where the truth is found.


Quote:11. All religions, even non-Christian ones ,worship the same god, some just interpert him differently.

FB: The need for man to worship God is given to him from God. It is the light of Christ which helps man in this. The clarity of the character of God may be different and certainly may be mistaken in how the true character of God is, but there is only one God the Father. Many times when God condemned his children for worshipping other Gods, it is because they turned away from truth they already had. Man does this. But that does not take away from the good truths they have in their beliefs. Today they do not know any other God than the one they were raised to believe in. Elements of the pure gospel can be seen in almost all religions.

another "yes/correct"

Quote:12. The Christian creeds that teach of a trinune God are an abomination to God but the lds creed of the Articles of faith, is God's truth.

FB: Many truths are found in these creeds, but it is not complete, and does not portray the true character of God. The Abomination is because it was not inspired by God, but written by man.

Didn't you just say that beliefs that have good in them are of God? Wouldn't this mean that the creeds that Joseph Smith said were an abomination to God where actually partcially inspired of God because they have "many truths" in them?

FB: That is a good question. Man has been given a brain to reason through truth. Sometimes man can find truth without being inspired. Man can also be inspired to find truth, but not focus enough to understand and get the full meaning of that truth. Then man can add things to it to corrupt it. Still there are elements of the basic truth, but as the pharisees of Christ's day had done, corrupted the very basics of Gods commandments. In christianity today they have take a truth about faith and then focused on a misunderstanding of the teachings of Paul and adhere to Faith without works, which was not what Paul was trying to teach. Paul was teaching about old law works that could not save you. Christ taught that following his new laws brought about salvation. All of this is done through faith in Christ. Therefore a whole belief system condemns another for believing that one must follow Christ in order to show one has faith. Even thought Christianity has the truth that in order to be saved one must have faith, they take to the extreme the teachings of Paul and forget that in order to develope faith, one must have new law works.

:13. God is not a triune God that is 3 persons in one being but rather is 3 seperate beings that serve one purpose.

FB: Yes

Simple, to the point, uncluttered by words, answer. I like that.



Quote:14. The prophets of the lds church are only prophets when they say they are (speaking as prophets) and their words are not the words from God unless the prophet is speaking as a prophet and says that what he is stating is from God.

FB: Prophets are here to not only prophesy, but guide and direct through inspiration. They are always prophets twenty four seven. If God wants them to bring revelation to his people, they are ready twenty four seven. But God does not connect with them twenty four seven and they have their own opinions and ideas, because God gave them a brain as he has given to all of us. God did not make them infallible, and they are just men. The only thing God has to work with. If God wants something for his people to be known as scripture or doctrine then he set up a process which was true from the beginning of the modern church. It may confuse you because you want perfection and a double standard, yet ancient prophets did not live up to the very guide lines you want to place on LDS Prophets. Looking through rose colored glasses.

I want perfection and a double standard? I am glad you know what I want so well, I was not even aware that this was a "want" of mine. Exactly what guidelines do I want to place on LDS prophets? Please tell me, since I have not stated what guidelines I want to place on LDS prophets, perhaps you could tell me. You seem to know me so well, even better than I know myself since you are stating that I want things that I didn't even know I wanted.

FB: You condemn our prophets for their weaknesses because they are just men. None of them have ever said they were perfect or even close to it. The Lord chastise Joseph Smith many times for things he messed up on. Do you think that a con man would print that the Lord just chewed him out? Your guidelines come with your condemnation of the prophets. They are evil, or they are to old, or too young, they are just conning us all. If you took even the least amount of seriousness, that they are men of God, then you would not be here condemning my belief.

 

[fatboys]

:15. LDS temple works can only be performed in lds temples, not in regular church houses.

FB: Temple works can be performed where God wants them to be performed. God has given this authority to man and can designate any building. But we build Temples to show our adoration towards God in faith.

So, God doesn't care where these temple works are performed but man does them only in the LDS temples because doing them in the temples proves their faith more?

FB: No that is not what I said. I said that the Lord could designate any building to have these ordinances performed in. But he has inspired his prophets to build Temples. In early days this was a great sacrifice to his people. We build Temples because we were commanded to do so. But it does not have to be done in the Temple if God commanded it otherwise.

:16. LDS build temples that are lavish and expensive because they believe God requires it that way.another "yes/correct"

FB: This is the Lord's House. Would you want anything else but the best for God's House?

I heard almost these exact words from Jan on the Trinity Broadcasting Network years ago when they were doing more lavish additions to their studios. I can't remember now what exactly their additions were (probably a few more gold plated chairs and some more silk and velvet curtians or microphones with diamond plated handles..hehe) I didn't agree with them either.

FB: To whose end did this benefit? Under whose name were these possessions owned by? Doest President Hinckley own all the church has? No, he is the custodian of them. Big difference. When he dies will his children have their inheritance from what the church has? Of course not. I benefit from what is placed in the Temple was well as any other member of the church who follows the teachings.

God does not live in temples made of stone with the hands of man. My God already has the best, He is creator of the universe, me trying to out do that with a fancy building that cost a lot of money does nothing to impress my God. Jesus fullfilled the law and made the purpose of the temples no longer nessesary, I can go directly to my God through Jesus, I would not even try to put back up a veil that God himself tore in two.

FB: The veil wsa torn because it had become corrupt. Christ drove the money changers from the Temple. Jesus certainly fulfilled the old law, but brought the new law, or higher law to be lived by. This law was the law Christ lived by to be perfect. He asked us to live by the same law, and to become perfect as his Father is. In ancient times God visited the Holy of Holies. Why? He certainly had the Universe then too.

Wouldn't you want a place that was as perfect and beautiful as man can come as close to in this life?

Refer to what I said above. The bodies of all believers are the temple of God and if the Spirit of God is willing to take up residence in the bodies of such imperfect people, I hardly think He is conserned with fancy buildings that have the best that "the world" has to offer. What can you offer a God that already has everything? You can offer Him your heart. He made this earth, He can make Himself a temple of lavish wealth if He likes but because He has given us free-will, He will not force anyone to love Him....so what can you offer a God who has everything....you can offer Him your deepest love.

FB: Why would you think God forces me to love him? I give one tenth of what I have to him. I do so without guile, or reluctance. I give because I love God and want to build his kingdom on earth until the time comes to call me home.

Quote:17. LDS consider those who speak out against their churches teachings to be doing the devils work and to be bitter or ignorant people with an agenda rooted in hatred.

FB: If a person came here who had never heard of the LDS religion and read the comments and statements made by many here, they would come to the same conclusion. And as far as doing the devils work, if this is the true restored church, then they would be fighting against the church of the Lamb of God. What would you conclude?

again, another "yes/correct"

:18. No one can know if they are really saved to heaven or not until "the judgement day", they can only do their best and hope it was good enough.

FB: If a person does his best, and follows Christ, in the restored church to his best ability, he is going to the celestial kingdom. Of course all of this is done through faith.

How do you know when you "best" is "good enough" ? You have to wait until the judgement to find out, correct? If so, then this is another "yes/correct"

FB: No, you are wrong. I know that I will be with my wife in the Celestial kingdom. I don't have to wait to know. Those who say they do not know are showing their humility and humbleness of how unworthy we really are. And that only through Christ can we become worthy.


Quote:19. That the Bible has many many errors in it and that God did not preserve it with the full messege He intended, therefore other "books" are required.

FB: The facts are that many scripturs were left out of the bible. And it was translated by uninspired man. But the fullness of the Gospel is contained in the bible. Clarity came about through modern prophets, and more scripture. Also the most important book is another testament that Christ lived and was real. This Book is for the convincing of the jew and gentile that Jesus is the Christ.

another "yes/correct"



Quote:20. That the BofM is a history of people who came from Isreal to the Americas.

FB: It is a record of God's dealings with those who came from that part of the world.

another "yes/correct"



Quote:21. That the garden of Eden was orginally where Jackson County Missouri, USA is now.

FB: Yup

and another

:22. When Jesus returns, He will have His temple in Jackson County Missouri where the LDS believe is the New Jeruselem.

FB: More to it than that.

Ok, so what I stated is correct but there is also more to it? Such as?

FB: Much more to it. I don't have time right now, but I will try to finish. You said that I was snide. If you read through your answers back, they are also a bit snide. Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a tooth. If we still lived by that law we would all be blind and toothless.


[

 

[Rescued One]

FB: Prophets are here to not only prophesy, but guide and direct through inspiration. They are always prophets twenty four seven. If God wants them to bring revelation to his people, they are ready twenty four seven. But God does not connect with them twenty four seven and they have their own opinions and ideas, because God gave them a brain as he has given to all of us. God did not make them infallible, and they are just men. The only thing God has to work with. If God wants something for his people to be known as scripture or doctrine then he set up a process which was true from the beginning of the modern church. It may confuse you because you want perfection and a double standard, yet ancient prophets did not live up to the very guide lines you want to place on LDS Prophets. Looking through rose colored glasses.

When you say modern church, do you mean that this a method God gave only for the restored church? So actually, the LDS prophet has to get the approval of men for what is and is not doctrine?

 

[Frankie]

Holiness to the Lord, the House of the Lord.
God's "Spirit" dwells there less abated by the influences of the world, and He sometimes appears to fullfill His Purposes to the faithful.
Also, God's body is Perfected, meaning it is refined matter, not corrupt matter as man's bodies are.

Where does God's Word teach that His body is made of "refined matter"? The Bible teaches us that God the Father is spirit, it say nothing of "refined matter consisting in the form of human bodies.

There is an old saying in Science, "nothing can be destroyed, it only "changes"."
Matter is Eternal, and Spirit is a form of matter, but even more refined, but yet it is Power, thus it still has Form.

Interesting but not Biblical

God Dwells in His Temples, because the world is kept at bay, and a Bridge is Created connecting Heaven and Earth, so His Spirit is less hindered.

This contradicts God's Word that says He does NOT dwell in temples made of stone by the hands of man. Should I take your word for it or should I believe God's Word?

This is one way of explaining the issue.

It does appear to be an explanation of sorts, however, it is one that contradicts the Word of God, which is why I will not be embrasing this particular explanation.

Frankie

 

[Frankie]

Brother Frankie..... Might I mention that many of your "another yes/correct's", were not actually correct.
Fatboys, while very short, actually clarified and more corrected your statements.
Thus, many weren't actually "corrects", they had significant improvements and corrections that needed to be made to make them actually more representative of LDS Doctrine or belief.

Nevertheless, I also noticed that you kept mostly inbounds with what is actually our beliefs, and didn't really include anything that most of this forum actually rehashes over and over.
Thus, if I recall, your intention of making this post was to find out what you or others on this forum are actually believing wrong about LDS, since LDS have been chastising critics and anti's for their significant corruptions and misinterpretations of LDS doctrines and history.
Your post hence was very "benign" in relation to the problems that has been discussed recently.

Essentially, you formed your statements specifically so that you would actually be more accurate because of the benign (though sometimes unique to LDS) material you include, thus your post really doesn't accomplish what I believe you wished to find out.
Though, wether you did this intentionally or without consciously realizing it, I know not.
Few of the "controversial" things that are always discussed were not included.

i honestly have NO idea what you are trying to say in your last paragraph here. Are you saying that I didn't just sit down and type what I thought but rather calculatingly typed it in wording that was misleading or entrapping or are you saying that I tried to be as accurate as I could in regards to lds beliefs? P.S. I am a woman, not a brother

 

[Doc T]

41. LDS do not consider the face of baal, the inverted pentagram or the goats head to be pagan or satanic symbols but rather believe they have a different meaning and use them in carvings on some of their temples. (SLC and Nahvoo temples)

Looks like several people have addressed your questions. If I may, let me elaborate on a few over time. I'll start with the one above.

You must have been looking on the wrong website on this one as the "face of baal" or "goats heads" are nowhere to be found on any of our temples. Now as for the inverted pentagram, let me quote from an article written by Matthew Brown.

Some critics of the LDS faith emphatically declare that Christians have never used the inverted five-pointed star as a symbol—but this is simply not true. The early Christians believed that Jesus Christ was the “Star” that was prophesied to rise out of the House of Israel.

Certainly anti-Mormons cannot ignore early Christian artworks that depict the Star of Bethlehem (the “Star in the East”) as an inverted pentagram. The interlaced star depicted in the “Berthold Missal” is a particularly striking example. It was drawn in a Benedictine Abbey in Weingarten Germany sometime between 1200 and 1232 A.D.21 Another inverted nativity star can be seen in the sculpted capital of a cloister pillar from the twelfth century A.D.22

What did the inverted five-pointed star mean to the early Christians? A clue may be found in some of the artworks of the Greek and Russian Orthodox churches. In some paintings that illustrate the Mount of Transfiguration, various artists from these denominations show Jesus Christ standing before a large, inverted five-pointed star (some with an elongated bottom ray).23 The apostle Peter said of the three apostles who witnessed the manifestation on this mountain that they received the “more sure word of prophecy” and because of this the “day star” arose in their hearts. Both the NIV and NASB translations of this verse render “day star” as “morning star.”

How did this ancient Christian symbol become associated with Satan, the arch-enemy of Jesus Christ? It appears that the person who made the first formal connection between this symbol and the Adversary was a Frenchman named Alphonse Louis Constant (1810–1875). He was ordained a deacon in the Roman Catholic Church in 1835, but he had to abandon his plan to be ordained a priest the next year because he was defrocked. This drastic action was taken against Alphonse because he was deeply involved in studying the occult.

Alphonse eventually decided to give himself a pseudonym (Eliphas Levi Zahed) and publish books on occultic subjects. Alphonse indicates in his writings that he was aware of the Day of Atonement ritual where goats became symbols of sin 26 and when he published his first book in 1854 he used this biblical imagery to take a jab at the Roman Catholic Church. In this volume he printed a drawing of a priestly hand making “the sign of excommunication” and fashioned it so that its shadow looked like a demonic goat’s head and vaguely followed the outline of an inverted five-pointed star.

The first time that Alphonse made a written connection between the inverted five-pointed star, the goat, and Satan was in a book he published in 1855 and the first time that he made a pictorial connection between Satan and the inverted star was in a book he published in 1861.

Even though Eliphas Levi is consistently credited with being the first person to associate the inverted five-pointed star with Satan, one commentator makes this important observation: “The inverted five-pointed star, with its single point downward, originally had no demonic meaning, but over the centuries it has mistakenly come to represent evil.”

The full article can be accessed at: www.fairlds.org/pubs/Stars.pdf

I hope that helps to clairify your statement.

Doc

~

 

[Frankie]

Looks like several people have addressed your questions. If I may, let me elaborate on a few over time. I'll start with the one above.

You must have been looking on the wrong website on this one as the "face of baal" or "goats heads" are nowhere to be found on any of our temples. Now as for the inverted pentagram, let me quote from an article written by Matthew Brown.



The full article can be accessed at: www.fairlds.org/pubs/Stars.pdf

I hope that helps to clairify your statement.

Doc

~

Thaks Doc, since reading your post here a few minutes ago, I have been doing a google search of the things you pointed out with the 5 pionted star....so far, nothing that you quoted above has been verified from what I have found but I will keep looking and see what I can find.

Thanks,
Frankie

 

[Frankie]

Looks like several people have addressed your questions. If I may, let me elaborate on a few over time. I'll start with the one above.

You must have been looking on the wrong website on this one as the "face of baal" or "goats heads" are nowhere to be found on any of our temples. Now as for the inverted pentagram, let me quote from an article written by Matthew Brown.



The full article can be accessed at: www.fairlds.org/pubs/Stars.pdf

I hope that helps to clairify your statement.

Doc

~

was able to find one picture of the Berthold Missal but it doesn’t have an inverted five pointed star anywhere on it.



http://vandyck.anu.edu.au/introduction/add/Christ.iconog/jpgs/Ah441-179.JPG



http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/medieval_art/6396

http://www.lib.msu.edu/coll/main/finearts/illum5.htm



http://www.davis-art.com/catalog/desc-extra/Golobal%20Pursuit.htm



Inverted 5 pointed star in Benedictine Abbey of Germany?



http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15716b.htm



I was able to find a picture of the organ in the abbey but it has no inverted 5 pointed stars on it.



http://www.organisten.de/oberlinger/e-tholey.htm



My search pulled up this web-site which is for defending of the Freemasonary beliefs and rituals and they talk about inverted pentagrams as a good thing.



http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/pentagram_notes.html



So far, nothing that shows or claims inverted pentagrams in Christian beliefs or churches. I have not incuded all the links I ran across because many of them are just references for books that talk about other books.



I keep trying to pull up that fairs article and everytime I do, it freezes up my computer. I finally got smart and started saving the above links to Word but as of yet, I have not been able to access the fair article.



Frankie

 

[gort]

I was able to find a picture of the organ in the abbey but it has no inverted 5 pointed stars on it.

Hey thanx for the site of organs. As a player, I sure would like one of the pipe organs, but I don't think the wife would go for it. However, am completely satisfied with my 1939 Hammond model D. with Leslie 122 cabinet!


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