LDS Beliefs...true or false

[fatboys]

fatboys, in reading back through this thread, I noticed this response you made to me quite awhile back and I now have a question about this. Why is it that lds say they can not know for sure if they will make it to heaven (life forever with God) but they can know right now that they will be sealed to their spouse forever?

Frankie

FB: If a person lives according to the teachings of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ to the best of their abilities, they will inherit the kingdom of God. I think that many LDS believe that it would be boasting to make a statement as to say they know they will reach the highest level. They realize all the weaknesses they have and sometimes it can be discouraging as we try and fail to over come weaknesses. This discouragment presents itself as failure to be able to reach the desired goal. But if a person is consistent with his progress, and trys trys again, they will make it. The only requirment one needs to reach the Celestial kingdom is being baptized by one holding the proper authority. We build upon that foundation of faith in Christ.

 

[Frankie]

FB: If a person lives according to the teachings of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ to the best of their abilities, they will inherit the kingdom of God. I think that many LDS believe that it would be boasting to make a statement as to say they know they will reach the highest level. They realize all the weaknesses they have and sometimes it can be discouraging as we try and fail to over come weaknesses. This discouragment presents itself as failure to be able to reach the desired goal. But if a person is consistent with his progress, and trys trys again, they will make it. The only requirment one needs to reach the Celestial kingdom is being baptized by one holding the proper authority. We build upon that foundation of faith in Christ.

Ok but my question was, why do lds believe they can be sure they are sealed to their spouse in the next life but they can't be sure they will be in Heaven? You said you don't have to wait to know you will be sealed to your wife forever, you can know now but in many other posts, lds have said they have to wait to know if they make it to Heaven.

I am editing this to explain my question more....

How can one know they are going to be sealed to their spouse forever but not know they are going to Heaven? In the lds belief, doesn't one have to make it to heaven to be with their spouse?

Frankie

 

[Wrigley]

FB: If a person lives according to the teachings of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ to the best of their abilities, they will inherit the kingdom of God. I think that many LDS believe that it would be boasting to make a statement as to say they know they will reach the highest level. They realize all the weaknesses they have and sometimes it can be discouraging as we try and fail to over come weaknesses. This discouragment presents itself as failure to be able to reach the desired goal. But if a person is consistent with his progress, and trys trys again, they will make it. The only requirment one needs to reach the Celestial kingdom is being baptized by one holding the proper authority. We build upon that foundation of faith in Christ.

What was the point of Christ's death on the cross? If all we have to do is life the gospel to the best of our ability to inherit the kingdom, Christ's death was in vain.

 

[fatboys]

Ok but my question was, why do lds believe they can be sure they are sealed to their spouse in the next life but they can't be sure they will be in Heaven? You said you don't have to wait to know you will be sealed to your wife forever, you can know now but in many other posts, lds have said they have to wait to know if they make it to Heaven.

I am editing this to explain my question more....

How can one know they are going to be sealed to their spouse forever but not know they are going to Heaven? In the lds belief, doesn't one have to make it to heaven to be with their spouse?

Frankie

FB: I thought I answered it. See we do not believe that once you believe in Christ, that this automatically saves you. Belief is more than lip service. It must be followed up with actions of that belief. If a person becomes disheartened and returns to old ways which means that they are lax in following Christ, then they cannot recieve the same blessings. As a person gains knowledge about the gospel, the more they realize how imperfect they are. Many times the mountain seems to much. But a step at a time will get you there. That is overcoming sin and being more perfected. Christ paid for our sins, but we must overcome sin by following Christ. This is done through faith in Christ. As we follow Christ, it means that are overcoming sin. That means we are obedient. When we are obedient we sin less. As we sin less we are more perfect. A person who feels they do not know whether or not they are going to heaven does not understand the gospel completely. As I said perhaps the progress they see they have to make in order to be perfect is more than they can understand. We do not have to be perfect. Just doing our best.

 

[computerjunkie]

Sorry to interrupt your train of thought, Frankie, but I just had to say this is one of the saddest posts I have seen in a long time:

FB: If a person lives according to the teachings of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ to the best of their abilities, they will inherit the kingdom of God. I think that many LDS believe that it would be boasting to make a statement as to say they know they will reach the highest level.They realize all the weaknesses they have and sometimes it can be discouraging as we try and fail to over come weaknesses. This discouragment presents itself as failure to be able to reach the desired goal. But if a person is consistent with his progress, and trys trys again, they will make it. The only requirment one needs to reach the Celestial kingdom is being baptized by one holding the proper authority.We build upon that foundation of faith in Christ.

How sad to think one has to try, try, and try again to the best of their ability to get there, and even then, there is no assurance.

fb, it is absolutely possible to KNOW, but it is based on believing in the finished work of Christ on the cross and NOTHING ELSE.


2 Timothy 1:12: "...for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."


1 John 5:1-13:
1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

I pray that someday you will see the truth, given to us in God's Holy Word, the Bible.

CJ

 

[fatboys]

What was the point of Christ's death on the cross? If all we have to do is life the gospel to the best of our ability to inherit the kingdom, Christ's death was in vain.

FB: You know wrigley I don't know how else to explain it to you. The purpose of the death of Christ was to break the bands of death. His suffering on the Cross paid for sin. Christ paid for sin. You believe that in order to be forgiven, one must believe in Christ. We agree with that, but take it a step further. We believe that in order to be forgiven of that sin we must overcome than sin. For how can a sin be forgiven that is continually being commited. Christ told the woman taking in adultery that her sins were forgiven and to sin no more. If she continued to follow that law, her sin would be forgiven as she sinned no more. All we can do is our best. Are you perfect? All you are doing is the best you can. As you do the best, the atonement takes up the slack. But you must believe and that belief must motivate you into action. As your faith increases and motivation strengthens you become more obedient. As you are more obedient you become more perfect.

 

[fatboys]

Sorry to interrupt your train of thought, Frankie, but I just had to say this is one of the saddest posts I have seen in a long time:

FB: Your train of thought is towards once saved always saved. It is less likely that you would begin to understand what James the brother of Christ taught about Faith without works is dead.

How sad to think one has to try, try, and try again to the best of their ability to get there, and even then, there is no assurance.

FB: If have misunderstood what I said. I said that LDS can know they are going to heaven. They just don't boast about it.

fb, it is absolutely possible to KNOW, but it is based on believing in the finished work of Christ on the cross and NOTHING ELSE.

FB: Tell me how you KNOW.

I pray that someday you will see the truth, given to us in God's Holy Word, the Bible.

CJ

FB: Then show me that what you now is the truth. I would love to know as you do.

 

[Frankie]

FB: I thought I answered it. See we do not believe that once you believe in Christ, that this automatically saves you. Belief is more than lip service. It must be followed up with actions of that belief. If a person becomes disheartened and returns to old ways which means that they are lax in following Christ, then they cannot recieve the same blessings. As a person gains knowledge about the gospel, the more they realize how imperfect they are. Many times the mountain seems to much. But a step at a time will get you there. That is overcoming sin and being more perfected. Christ paid for our sins, but we must overcome sin by following Christ. This is done through faith in Christ. As we follow Christ, it means that are overcoming sin. That means we are obedient. When we are obedient we sin less. As we sin less we are more perfect. A person who feels they do not know whether or not they are going to heaven does not understand the gospel completely. As I said perhaps the progress they see they have to make in order to be perfect is more than they can understand. We do not have to be perfect. Just doing our best.

perhaps I did not ask my question in the right way. What I am saying is how can you know that you know, today, that you will be sealed to your spouse forever but you can't know if you are going to Heaven or not?

You said that you don't have to wait to know if you will be will your spouse forever, you can know today but you then say that you can't know for sure if you are going to heaven. So, since you have to be in heaven to be sealed to your spouse, how is it that you CAN know today that you will be with your spouse forever but you CAN'T know if you are going to heaven or not?

Frankie

 

[fatboys]

perhaps I did not ask my question in the right way. What I am saying is how can you know that you know, today, that you will be sealed to your spouse forever but you can't know if you are going to Heaven or not?

You said that you don't have to wait to know if you will be will your spouse forever, you can know today but you then say that you can't know for sure if you are going to heaven. So, since you have to be in heaven to be sealed to your spouse, how is it that you CAN know today that you will be with your spouse forever but you CAN'T know if you are going to heaven or not?

Frankie

FB: No I said there are some who feel that way. If we are doing our best to following all we are asked to do, we will be in heaven. Period. Some may feel that their actions are not enough because of their other weaknesses. But the atonement pushes us the rest of the way.

 

[computerjunkie]

FB: Your train of thought is towards once saved always saved. It is less likely that you would begin to understand what James the brother of Christ taught about Faith without works is dead.

FB: If have misunderstood what I said. I said that LDS can know they are going to heaven. They just don't boast about it.

FB: Tell me how you KNOW.

FB: Then show me that what you now is the truth. I would love to know as you do.

Oh, but I DO understand what James taught. I believe the faith comes first, and as a result of that faith, we WANT to be obedient to what Christ has taught. It's not a matter of being saved, "after all we can do". It's a matter of loving God so much we WANT to live like He would have us live. It is through God's love for us and what He did for us that we WANT to keep His commandments.

You seem to have it just backwards. From what I understand you to be saying, we have to try to live right (keep the commandments), and then the atonement takes up where we fail.

Once we have believed in the atoning work of Christ on the cross, our sins (past, present and future) are FORGIVEN. God does not keep a scorecard where He keeps track of how we are doing.

How do I know? I KNOW because of what God says in His Word. Look again at the passages in 1 John 5: "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments."

vs. 3: For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

vs. 9: "...for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

vs. 11-12: "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

vs. 13: "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

Does this make sense to you?

CJ

 

[fatboys]

Oh, but I DO understand what James taught. I believe the faith comes first, and as a result of that faith, we WANT to be obedient to what Christ has taught. It's not a matter of being saved, "after all we can do". It's a matter of loving God so much we WANT to live like He would have us live. It is through God's love for us and what He did for us that we WANT to keep His commandments.

FB: And that is great, for that is the same reason we follow and obey the commandments of God.

You seem to have it just backwards. From what I understand you to be saying, we have to try to live right (keep the commandments), and then the atonement takes up where we fail.

Once we have believed in the atoning work of Christ on the cross, our sins (past, present and future) are FORGIVEN. God does not keep a scorecard where He keeps track of how we are doing.

FB: Could you give me a reference in the bible where is says that if we believe in Christ our sins will be forgiven right then and there? Thank you.

How do I know? I KNOW because of what God says in His Word. Look again at the passages in 1 John 5: "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments."

vs. 3: For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

vs. 9: "...for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

vs. 11-12: "And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

vs. 13: "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

Does this make sense to you?

CJ

FB: Nice verses, but does not tell me how you know. I have asked others this question and they answer the same as you. This does not tell me that you are not any different than a Buddist.

 

[Wrigley]

FB: You know wrigley I don't know how else to explain it to you. The purpose of the death of Christ was to break the bands of death. His suffering on the Cross paid for sin. Christ paid for sin. You believe that in order to be forgiven, one must believe in Christ. We agree with that, but take it a step further. We believe that in order to be forgiven of that sin we must overcome than sin. For how can a sin be forgiven that is continually being commited. Christ told the woman taking in adultery that her sins were forgiven and to sin no more. If she continued to follow that law, her sin would be forgiven as she sinned no more. All we can do is our best. Are you perfect? All you are doing is the best you can. As you do the best, the atonement takes up the slack. But you must believe and that belief must motivate you into action. As your faith increases and motivation strengthens you become more obedient. As you are more obedient you become more perfect.

That's the answer I expected. At least you're consistant with the heresy the mormon church teaches.

 

[computerjunkie]

FB: And that is great, for that is the same reason we follow and obey the commandments of God.

Not exactly. From what I understand, you HAVE to do this. You said this in post #101: "They realize all the weaknesses they have and sometimes it can be discouraging as we try and fail to over come weaknesses. This discouragment presents itself as failure to be able to reach the desired goal. But if a person is consistent with his progress, and trys trys again, they will make it."

That doesn't sound to me like you obey because you WANT to, but because that's the only way you will "make it".

FB: Could you give me a reference in the bible where is says that if we believe in Christ our sins will be forgiven right then and there? Thank you.

Acts 5:31: "Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins."

Acts 13:38: "Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins."
Acts 26:18: "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins..."

Ephesians 1:7: "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.

Mark 2:5: "When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee."

Colossians 2:13: "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

Mark 4:12: "That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

Luke 5:20: "And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee."

Looks to me like it's "right then and there".

Nice verses, but does not tell me how you know. I have asked others this question and they answer the same as you. This does not tell me that you are not any different than a Buddist.

John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

I believe what God says in His Word is true. I believe God. I believe God said He loved me enough to give His Son for me and said that by believing in Him I would have everlasting life.

Plus the "nice verses" from 1 John 5: "whosoever believes"; "the witness of God"; "the record".

That's how I KNOW...because God said it. I have His word, His witness, and His record. What more could anybody need than the word, witness and record of God Himself?

When you say you keep asking others how they know and we all keep giving you the same answers, referencing the same Bible, does that not tell you that maybe that IS how we know? Do you want me to say I got a "burning in my bosom" and that is how I know? I don't need a physical sensation to know. I know because God said it.

I'm truly sorry that is not enough for you. But I will continue to pray that someday you will see the truth, given to us in God's Holy Word, the Bible.

CJ

 

[gort]

FB: Nice verses, but does not tell me how you know. I have asked others this question and they answer the same as you. This does not tell me that you are not any different than a Buddist.

Since when does a buddhist read and quote the Bible?

And, as we all answer the same, there is so much unity that we have!!!

<><

 

[fatboys]

Not exactly. From what I understand, you HAVE to do this. You said this in post #101: "They realize all the weaknesses they have and sometimes it can be discouraging as we try and fail to over come weaknesses. This discouragment presents itself as failure to be able to reach the desired goal. But if a person is consistent with his progress, and trys trys again, they will make it."

That doesn't sound to me like you obey because you WANT to, but because that's the only way you will "make it".

FB: The only reason to do it is because we are following the example of Christ and want to be like Christ.

Acts 5:31: "Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins."

FB: So Christ was not always exalted? That God had to bring Jesus to his right had in order for Jesus to become a Prince and Saviour?

Acts 13:38: "Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins."
Acts 26:18: "To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins..."

FB: This does not say that we will automatically be forgiven of all our sins the second we accept Jesus.

Ephesians 1:7: "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.

Mark 2:5: "When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee."

FB: Did not say that past present and future sins are forgiven. Does not say that if he continued to sin that those would also be forgiven.

I believe what God says in His Word is true. I believe God. I believe God said He loved me enough to give His Son for me and said that by believing in Him I would have everlasting life.[/qiuote]

FB: So how does God tell you his word is true?

Plus the "nice verses" from 1 John 5: "whosoever believes"; "the witness of God"; "the record".

That's how I KNOW...because God said it. I have His word, His witness, and His record. What more could anybody need than the word, witness and record of God Himself?

FB: How do you know it is God's word? How did he tell you?

When you say you keep asking others how they know and we all keep giving you the same answers, referencing the same Bible, does that not tell you that maybe that IS how we know? Do you want me to say I got a "burning in my bosom" and that is how I know? I don't need a physical sensation to know. I know because God said it.

I'm truly sorry that is not enough for you. But I will continue to pray that someday you will see the truth, given to us in God's Holy Word, the Bible.

CJ

FB: How do you know that it is God's word that is telling you that it is God's word? As for the burning in the bosom, I don't care if you do or don't, I just want to know how you know it is the word of God.