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Law vs Grace

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Sidon, Jun 6, 2021.

  1. Sidon

    Sidon Well-Known Member

    United States
    God once told Moses... "you have found Grace in my sight, so i will do what you asked".

    And this presents THE interesting distinction, between the OT and the NT.
    And i'll show you more as we take a closer look at the distinction.
    And its a WONDERFUL distinction.
    its a THANK YOU JESUS, distinction.
    ITs a Hallelujah distinction.
    Take a look....

    God told Moses, "YOU found Grace, in my sight".

    So, that is the OT, "under the law", where a person is found trying to do something so that God would see it, and bless, based on the Self Effort.
    In Deuteronomy for example, God says...>"if you DO all this....if you KEEP all this, then i will do all THIS for you".
    So, that is the essence of "being under the law", which is the heart of the old covenant.

    Now compare this to the "time of the Gentiles"., the "new Covenant", as found as the Grace of God.
    Notice reader.....We are no longer finding Grace in God's sight by our EFFORT to try to get it.
    Because God is now giving Grace, as the BLood Atonement.
    God is now giving righteousness, as the GIFT of righteousness
    God is now giving Salvation , as the GIFT of Salvation.
    John 3:16

    See the stark change from OLD to NEW?
    In the Old Testament, you worked to try to possess God's favor.
    In the New Testament, in the "time of the Gentiles', you are no longer under the law, but "under GRACE", you are blessed by God, as a "GIFT".

    Reader......IN the OT, you were favored or not, based on your effort to attain it by works.
    In the NT< you are gifted, favored, and blessed FREELY...all based only on what Christ did for you on the Cross, = all achieved for you by the shedding of God's blood, His body's death, and His literal Resurrection.

    See that CHANGE?
    That is the GOSPEL. That is the "Grace of God". That is "unmerited favor". That is God being good to you, based only = on what CHRIST DID FOR YOU.
    Aren't you glad God came down here and took care of all your sin for you with His own shed blood, and became your Eternal FATHER and your FRIEND, vs you living in old testament times when you had to try to earn this same favor by Works.....

    Do you see the DISTINCTION between the "working to receive the blessing" of the Old Covenant, vs, the "GIFT" of blessing and favor that come not because you earned them, but because God loves you so much that He came down here to provide His own Blood for you, so that you could receive all His blessings found as "His riches in Glory" for FREE, forever.

    Now, I / Paul both teach that the 2nd Adam, (Jesus) came, to restore the born again into the 1st Adam Position, as : God's Righteous.
    Notice, when Adam and Eve were in the Garden, God GAVE them everything.
    They didnt have to earn it. It was all FREE to them. God supplied it all.
    All they had was God's blessing to them, and they havd everything.
    Yet, They threw it all away for the taste of rebellion.

    Then, later, Law came by Moses, and it put us under the slavery of SIN.

    "the Law is the POWER OF SIN".

    "Christ came to REDEEM YOU FROM the CURSE OF THE LAW".

    See that?
    That is OT vs NT.
    Law, vs Grace.

    So, NOW, under the NEW TESTAMENT , the NEW COVENANT, ....when God's blood is applied to you, all your sin is resolved and God's righteousness again becomes who you are, "in Christ", and you now possess Eternal Life and will get a New Body.
    So, all that is FREE.. Its a GIFT. "The GIFT of Salvation". "The GIFT of Righteousness".
    You dont earn a Gift. You RECEIVE IT.
    All this comes to you, because of what God did for you on the Cross, for FREE.
    See that Love?
    See that Gift?
    God is Love.
    God restores you to 1st Adam position, as "the righteousness of God", "in Christ", and made so, by the 2nd Adam, who is Christ The Lord.

    Reader......Here is one more look at that OT LAW vs God's NT Grace.

    When the LAW was given by Moses, 3000 people DIED that very same day.
    When Grace was Given on the day of Pentecost.... 3000 believed it and were added to the church.
    See that LIFE?
    The Law came and 3000 died., as the Law """"(the letter kills.)"""
    Grace came and 3000 were made ALIVE by the Spirit of God.

    Law brings death.
    Grace brings forgiveness and joy, freedom and Eternal life.
    The Law, DEMANDS.
    GRACE, provides.

    See it?
    See the OT vs the NT?
    See the Law vs Grace?
    See the Old Covenant vs the NEW Covenant?
    They are not the same.
    They oppose each other.

    Reader, When you are under the law, and not born again, you are a SINNER.
    So says the Law.

    But Now God's GRACE Says....When you trusted Christ and God SAVED you with the Blood of Jesus, you became a :

    Heir of God
    Joint Heir with Christ
    Temple of the Holy Spriit
    ONE with God and Christ
    Friend of God
    Born again.
    Possessing Eternal Life
    Blood Bought
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2021
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  2. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member

    United States
    God's laws and God's grace are two different things. We are not saved by God's laws, we are 100% saved by God's grace, His gift to give or not. We are judged though by our actions.
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2021
  3. Butterball1

    Butterball1 Well-Known Member

    United States
    Grace is a free gift under both the OT and NT. If one under the OT must work to earn grace then it would no longer be grace. Yet grace is a CONDITIONAL free gift where those who meet the condition of obedience receive God's grace. Those under the OT law who were obedient to it received grace, those who are obedient to Christ's NT law (1 Corinthians 9:21) receive grace. Those who live in rebellion to God's will do not receive grace as long as they continue to live in unrighteousness.

    John 1:17 the terms 'law' and 'grace' show a contrast between the two covenants;
    law - OT law of Moses
    grace - the NT gospel of Christ

    So John is NOT saying people today are not under law but under grace for people today are under law of the NT covenant and must obey NT gospel to be saved (2 Thessalonians 1:8). Romans 4:15 if there were no law there would be no sin. The fact men today sin is proof men are under law, Christ's NT law.

    Paul's point in Romans 6 is because the Christian is saved by grace does not give the Christian the right to sin for one who is a Christian is dead to sin. And the only solutuion to keep from sinning is obedience to Christ's NT law...."obedience unto righteousness" for if one is not obeying Christ's NT law he is serving "sin unto death", Romans 6:16. So salvation is a combination of man's obedience and God's grace....man's obedience is necessary to keep man from serving "sin unto death" and God's grace is necessary for man's obedience is not always perfectly sinless leaving man in need of grace. Law and grace therefore are not antagonistic to one another but fit together like hand in glove.
  4. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

    United States
    Everything since the beginning is accomplished through Jesus .... period.

    His grace throughout all ages to those he deems to give the gift of salvation to.

    Romans 3

    21But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets. 22And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

    There is no distinction, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

    25God presented Him as the atoning sacrificei through faith in His blood, in order to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance He had passed over the sins committed beforehand. 26He did this to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and to justify the one who has faith in Jesus.

    27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of works? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

    29Is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

    31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Certainly not! Instead, we uphold the law.

    His forbearance

    3929 /páresis ("passed-over-from-close-beside") is used only in Rom 3:25, of God releasing His judgment on sin in the OT when redeeming believers. This was based on the absolutely sure, upcoming sacrifice of Christ – "retroactively applied" to them in God's immutable, eternal plan.

    Hebrews 11:1-40
    Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the people of old received their commendation. By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

    By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death, and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was commended as having pleased God.

    Since the beginning .... FAITH .... and until the end.

    Works .... do we have them? Yes .... if one has faith they will have works.

    James 2:20-24

    Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?
    Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

    You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

    Good works is the evidence that one has been saved by grace through faith.

    Faith and works go hand in hand.
  5. fhansen

    fhansen Oldbie

    The difference between the old and new covenants is simply that the new, with grace, can accomplish in us what the old could not, on our own. It's the difference between our being with God, vs apart from God. For all practical purposes Adam thought he'd be better off on his own, apart from God. By denying His authority and disobeying Him Adam effectively denied His godhood. We're here to learn how wrong he was-we're here to learn that,
    "Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 17:3

    Faith puts us back into being with God.
  6. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    God's graciousness is eternal and unchanging, which he expressed throughout both the OT and the NT. In Psalms 119:29, David wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching Him to obey His law, so that is what it means to be under grace. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His ways, and God's law was given for that purpose (Deuteronomy 10:12-13, Isaiah 2:2-3). In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God and was a righteous man, so God was gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law and he was righteous because he obeyed through faith. Likewise, Abraham and everyone else listed in Hebrews 11 were all declared righteous by grace through faith in the same way as everyone in the NT. In Habakkuk 2:4, the righteous shall live by faith, so this has always been the case, and in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are not on whose heart is God's law, so obedience to God's law has always been a matter of living by faith, never about self-effort, which is why Jesus said in Matthew 23:23 that faith is one of the weightier matters of the law.

    However, instead of wanting God to be gracious to you by teaching you to obey His law, you want God to be gracious to you instead of teaching you to obey His law, but that has never been how grace works. If we do all of those things, then it is because of our faith, and it is by the same faith that we are blessed. Righteousness, salvation, blessing, and the law have always been given as a gift. In Romans 6:14, it describes the law that we aren't under when we are under grace is a law where sin had dominion over us, which is the law of sin, not the Law of God, but you would sadly rather be under the law of sin instead of the Law of God, which is nothing to rejoice about. It is the law of sin that is the power of sin, not the Law of God. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do things that God's law was given to instruct how to do, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is the content of His gift of salvation, which Jesus went to the cross to make available to us. Being set free from the curse of living in disobedience to God's law is being set free to enjoy the blessing of living in obedience to it, not the other way around. In 1 John 2:6, it says that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, not that those who are in Christ are free from needing to walk as he walked.

    David said repeatedly said throughout the Psalms that he loved God's law and delighted in obeying it, so if you consider the Psalm to be Scripture, then you should be praising God that you have the delight of getting to obey His law. In Jeremiah 31:33, the New Covenant involves following God's law, so the dichotomy between God's graciousness and His law will always be false. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commands, so there is not a way to have eternal life instead of obeying God's commands. In Romans 6:19-23, no longer presenting ourselves as slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin is contrasted with now presenting ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, so again obedience to God's law is part of God's gift of eternal life. God did not need to give us His law, but rather He graciously gave it as a gift. In Acts 2:38, Peter called for his audience to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sin, and God's law was how they knew what sin is. In 1 John 3:10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not born again as children of God.
  7. Sidon

    Sidon Well-Known Member

    United States
    Consider that the reason God created the "New Covenant", is because God "found fault" with the First.
    So, He ended the 1st Covenant, by becoming the New Testament.
    The New Testament, is God's blood. The Old Testament is the Law given by Moses.
    Are they the same?
    They are not at all.
    "The law came by Moses, and Grace and Truth came by Jesus"
    Its interesting that "TRUTH" is the new Covenant, and "law" is the old.

    Now here is the main thing.
    If you are trying to keep the old covenant, you are not realizing that God not only found fault with it, but finds fault with you, right now.

    We dont strive to keep, what God found fault with and revoked.

    Trying to keep the law and commandments, hoping to be accepted by God... is a eternal fail.
    Or worse....a believer in Jesus, has fallen from Grace and is now trying to keep the law and commandments to try to stay in fellowship with God... or to try to stay saved.
    This is the worst situation of All, as this person is committing the "error of Cain".
    Jude teaches about this believer or unbelievers who are tying to relationship with God by law and commandments. as this.......When CAIN tried this in Genesis, God told him to get out.
    He'll tell anyone today, the very same thing.....who try to replace the Blood of the New Covenant, with the theology of trying to keep the law and commandments for the wrong reason.
    He'll tell you the same if you try to reach Him with water baptism, thinking that this is your salvation.
    = Get OUT.
  8. Sidon

    Sidon Well-Known Member

    United States
    Jesus does not "deem" to give the gifi of His blood, that is Salvation.
    God accepts FAITH to Justify, as "justification BY faith".
    "faith is counted AS righteousness".

    The "deemed" : are """"all who believe on Jesus SHALL be saved"
  9. Sidon

    Sidon Well-Known Member

    United States

    The "difference is", that God "found fault"' with the first covenant. (The Old Testament).
    So, He brought in The Cross and the shed Blood of Jesus, and took care of all that was at "fault" regarding the First.
    If you can find God on the Cross in the Old Testament, then keep saying they are the "same".
    If not, think about what you are trying to believe, and get away from the people who taught you their legalism.
  10. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member

    United States
    The laws did not change in the Second Covenant, only the promises.

    Hebrews 10:16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”

    We no longer obey because God commanded us , we obey because His laws are in our hearts and we fulfill His laws by our obedience out of love.

    Keeping the laws will not save you. God's grace saves us as it is God's gift to us. You obey the laws because you are saved, not to be saved. It's a fruit of our faith.

    God bless
  11. Sidon

    Sidon Well-Known Member

    United States
    I said nothing about the law changing.
    I said that God found fault with the law and commandments, because they can't give you righteousness.
    They can't make you righteous.
    What they can do is expose you as a sinner, and they can be a lamp and a light.
    Thats it.
    So, to go to heaven, you have to be RIGHTEOUS. You have to be HOLY.
    The Law and commandments can't give that to you.
    What can?
    See those?, they are the same.
    You dont find those under the old covenant.
    You find those, "without the law", but "under Grace".

    "Jesus came to redeem you FROM the curse of the Law".
    So, if you are trying to keep it, thinking this is how God will accept you, then you are :

    1. Not born again
    2. Fallen from Grace.
  12. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

    United States
    The substitute, Jesus, has a perfect record, and He stands in the court in our stead, His righteousness accepted in place of our unrighteousness. Hence we are justified before God, not because of our works but because of Jesus, whose righteousness becomes ours when we accept it “by faith.”
  13. Sidon

    Sidon Well-Known Member

    United States

    When we are born again, we become, Jesus's Righteousness.
    "as Jesus IS....so are the BORN AGAIN.....IN THIS WORLD">

    See that, reader?
    That means NOW.
    Thats YOU< if you are born again.

    Do you see yourself as this?
    When you do, and you always see yourself as "the righteousness of GOD, In CHRIST", then your mind has real faith.
    This is the renewed mind.
    When you get there, you are beginning to walk in the Spirit.
  14. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

    United States
    Not so.

    There certainly was fault with the first covenant, but the fault was not with God or in the way He made the covenant, but with us. Hebrews 8:8 states that He found fault “with them.” (the people ... not the law) The Law showed the way to righteousness (Romans 8:3-4), but righteousness could only be obtained if the Law were kept perfectly (Galatians 3:10).

    The fault then wasn't with the Law .. the fault was that man could not keep it perfectly in order to obtain righteousness. And since the Law made no provision for the permanent forgiveness of sin (Hebrews 10:1), another covenant had to be brought, sanctified by the blood of Christ, that could provide for our salvation.

    There are no faults in the law or commandments .... the fault is and has been our inability to keep them by ourselves.

    When one is born again ... the Holy Spirit begins His work in them .... doing what? Helping us to keep the law. When we are able to overcome sin (sin-transgression of the law) by HIS work, glory be to God for His work. His work is continuous throughout our earthly lifetime helping us to be law abiders.
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2021
  15. Sidon

    Sidon Well-Known Member

    United States
    If God "found fault with man and not with the Law" then why didnt He change man, instead of changing the Covenant?

    What i hope you can see, is that when Moses gave the law, God was already quite familiar with Man.
    He became familiar with them about 2000 yrs earlier, when Eve was eating that apple.
    And also, God knew that Eve would eat that apple, before God created the World.

    So it isn't that God gave the law of Moses, because He thought that man could be resolved by the law.
    Actually that is irrelevant.
    See, God didn't do all this, and then watched to see the result, and from the result, decided to make a left turn.
    What God did, was bring in the law, to show man they are unholy, knowing that 2000 later, He's going to come down here and resolve the sin issue.

    See, God had to put into place the SPOTLIGHT that shows the world that it's evil and that man is unrighteous.
    He planned this Law of MOSES to impart this Light, before He even made Satan or the world.

    Everything that you read in the Bible, is the next step, leading toward, the next event.
    The bible is progressive revelation, where God is showing you the whole plan being executed.
    This is how He proves that the word of God is true. Its because it shows you what has happened, and why, and what is going to happen next and why.
  16. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

    United States

    Hebrews 8:8. He said, "Because they continued not in my covenant ... I regarded them not." Verse 9. The blame is placed squarely upon the human side of the mutual pact.

    Thus, we can see exactly why Paul wrote as he did about this Old Covenant in Hebrews 8. It did gender to bondage, it proved faulty, had poor promises, and vanished away - all because the people failed to obey their part of the agreement. Putting all these things together we can see why a new covenant was desperately needed, which would have better promises.

    How were the New Covenant promises better? Because God made them, and they guaranteed successful obedience through His strength alone. "I will put my laws into their mind ... I will be to them a God ... I will be merciful to their unrighteousness and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." Hebrews 8:10-12.

    How was the New Covenant ratified? In the same manner that the Old was confirmed - by the shedding of blood. But instead of an ox having to shed its blood, the sinless Son of God would provide the blood of sprinkling: "Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well-pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ." Hebrews 13:20, 21.

    What a contrast to the weak promises of the flesh made by Israel at Sinai. Instead of the people's "we will do," God's New Covenant promise is to "make you perfect in every good work ... working in you." It is not through human effort. It is not you working, but Him "working in you." And how is this power made available? "Through the blood of the everlasting covenant." Because of what Jesus did on the cross.

    The above is in response to your quote

    Not so. No fault with the commandment laws ... law embodied by Christ ...

    2 Corinthians 5:21

    21God made Him who knew no sin (transgression of the law) to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

    Romans 3:22
    And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction ...
  17. Sidon

    Sidon Well-Known Member

    United States
    The problem with the Law and Commandments, are still the same problem.
    They can't make you righteous.
    The Cross solved that, which is why God revoked the old covenant, by creating the NEW TESTAMENT, which is the Blood Atonement.
  18. Sidon

    Sidon Well-Known Member

    United States
    What you wrote is not true.

    The born again, are not "made righteous" by obedience to the old covenant.
    So, here is the reality.
    God come here to put you under a new dominion.
    Its this..>>"under GRACE".
    See that? That has replaced this...>"under the law".
    So, the born again, are born again INTO the Kingdom of God, and LAW is not a part of this Spiritual Realm.
    When you read.....that the born again, are "Translated FROM>...Darkness....>TO LIGHT">..
    See that "LIGHT"?
    That is....>"Jesus is the LIGHT of the WORLD".
    That is.. the born again, are "children of the LIGHT">
    The born again live in a body on the earth but they have been SPIRITUALLY BIRTHED into GOD's Holy Spirit, BY, God's Holy Spirit.
    And when the believer is taught this, and comes to only see themselves as this "new Creation" "IN CHRIST"< then they have achieved the renewed mind and are starting to exist as walking in the spirit, BECAUSE, they have finally received the revelation of who they have become, "in Christ".
  19. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

    Genesis actually demonstrated that what caused Adam's fall is 1) disobedience, and 2) lacking faith.
    This at the same time illustrated or prophesied that humans' fall would be from disobedience (i.e., breaking Law) and lacking faith.

    That said. Humans must be saved by faith alone not because they don't need to obey Law and commandments. It is because Law cannot be used to identify the righteous from the wicked. The only valid measurement which can be used to distinguish the righteous from the wicked is FAITH and faith alone.

    That's why the Bible says that faith without work is dead. If your faith is not reflected in how you obey the work of Law, it is not true faith. You should not take Law as a burden though. It works the other way round. When your faith increases, its power will allow you to obey Law and commandments in a better way.
  20. Butterball1

    Butterball1 Well-Known Member

    United States
    Those who lived under the OT were made righteous for obeying that law, as John's parents, Luke 1:6. For us today who live under Christ's NT law are made righteous by being obedient to that NT law, Romans 6:15...'obedience unto righteousness'. So obeying the OT law will not make one righteous today but obedience to Christ's NT gospel will.