Last one, I promise ;) FOR ALL PARENTS RE: spanking

[LovingOne]

Well, I wasn't spanked as a child, and I think it is insulting to insinuate that because my husband and I choose not to wilfully inflict pain on our children we will cause them to somehow be dysfunctional later in life. Godly discipline, huh? Which God would that be? The angry, vengeful God of the Old Testament who commanded His people to smite their enemies, even the babies of their enemies? Or the loving, compassionate, giving God of the New Testament who commanded His people to love their enemies as themselves?

Well I see what you're saying, but I didn't "insinuate" anything. Forgive me if I didn't make myself very clear.

The word "dysfunctional" came from the Bible.com website under the catagory for spanking children. I only repeated it. It is all backed up by Bible scripture on that Bible.com site. So that would be the one and only God our Father in heaven. Humans on earth don't always understand God's actions, which are ONLY for the good of everything. Humans don't always see or understand that, so they sometimes mistake God for being "angry" or "vengeful". God is a loving God, even though humans mistake some of his actions as being unloving. But it's just that, a mistake on the part of people who don't know all the answers, only God does. There are not 2 different gods, there is only one, the Creator of all. There is not a bad god or good god. There is only one REAL God. The Bible is God's Word -- all of it (not just the NT or the OT... all of it is). If you don't agree with that, it's okay with me. It's just something I believe in my Christian faith.

We parent (and therefore discipline) in a loving, compassionate, and firm manner. We have no need for physically harming our child.

Whatever is working for you and your husband, stick with it....LOL. If you feel there is no need for spanking at this point, then great. Not every child is the same and not every situation applies to every child.

I do wish to say that I don't see spanking as "phyically harming" a child. Spanking, when done properly, does not harm the child at all. Children can accidentally cut their finger or fall off their bike and physically get hurt a lot worse than a spanking does. Spanking goes not leave physical marks or scars... so it is not "physically harming" them. If you disagree with this too, that's okay. You're entitled to your opinion.

Teaching a child not to run into the street is a parent's responsibility. Spanking your child because he/she runs into the street may serve only to confuse them. Why not try, "We do not run into the street. Here is why..."

If you don't teach your children NOT to run into the street, then yeah you're doing them a huge disservice. We choose NOT to inflict pain on our children.

I gave a specific example earlier of my 4 year old who evidently does not understand the WHY (as what you suggested we should tell.... and we HAVE told him already, many times).

I agree, every parent should tell their children the dangers of getting hit by a car... and KEEP telling them until they understand it. But in my case, the tiny little spanking along with my talking is what helped my son realize that he needs to hold my hand and not just take off on his own. He learned from the spanking that there is something seriously bad about the wrongdoing here and even though he doesn't fully understand the safety issue yet, he understands the seriousness of his mother's action. He understands that I mean what I said and I expect him to do what I said no matter what.

One of these days he will finally understand what it means to get hit by a car. I'm not going to let him learn this the hard way. A little pat on the rear is nothing compared to what COULD happen to him.

OK whatever. It's not like we've decided to allow our children to run free and be unruly. We will be disciplining them when it is necessary. But we will NOT hit our children with our hands, or other weapons to get our point across.

I don't believe that spanking should be used to "get a point across". Spanking should be used a punishment for a wrongdoing. There is a difference. If you want to get a point across, then talk to your children. I know I don't have to tell you this, as I know you DO talk to them. I know you don't allow your children to run free and be unruly... and talking to them is one of the best ways to teach them right from wrong. Whatever you and your husband are doing, if it is clearly working, then by all means, stick with it. Nothing wrong with that....LOL. No one is saying you need to start spanking them.

I have only mentioned that with some children there are times when spanking is necessary.... when simply talking or other alternatives clearly are not working. This may not apply to your children right now... may not ever apply to your children. There are some kids that are generally easy-going enough that simple talking or less harsh punishment is all that is ever needed. But please know not all kids come out of the same mold. My children are a fine example of that. My daughter is now 12... she was always the perfect, good kid. Never had to spank her (until she got to be 11... and I won't go into detail on that). My son has always been the opposite of my daughter. He has been a challenge, that's for sure. Sometimes he responds well to just talking or a time-out... but there are other times when talking till you're blue in the face or a time-out, or taking away a favorite toy or something like that DOES NOT work. In those cases, a good old fashioned spanking is the only thing that DID work.

So all I'm saying is... whatever is working for people, they need to keep doing that. If talking is working for you in EVERY case, then great. It doesn't work for EVERY child because children are born with different personalities and temperment. They don't all behave the same way, naturally. They don't all react to the same things in the same way. So what works well with one may not necessarily work well with another. That's all I mean. I don't wish to upset you over anything. I am not telling you to change whatever is working for you. I have never said that. I'm sure you are a terrific parent!!!

Parents who choose not to spank are not disciplining improperly. To even suggest such a thing is unfair and unfounded.

Parents that see no need to spank and things truly work without a spanking are not doing anything improperly.... so I'm not arguing that not spanking is always bad. It is not. It should be the goal of every parent NOT to spank.... to use that more severe form of punishment only when needed.

But parents who refuse to spank when clearly a child needs one is not doing that child any favors by holding out. The key word here is "when needed". The whole idea of spanking is is not MY idea, but comes from the Bible. It is a fact of life that people often think God is unfair. We must remember that our children are not OUR children, but God's. He has given them to us to raise. It is a blessing. But we still should abide by God's laws in how we raise those children while they're in our care. God expects us to follow His laws. That is my belief.

Actually, yes : EVERY SINGLE REBELLIOUS PERSON I have ever known was spanked as a child. They grew up in very strict homes where they weren't allowed any freedom of expression, and the least little things were rewarded with spankings.

Really?..well I've witnessed just the opposite...LOL. Those in my neck of the woods that came from homes where parents spanked for wrongdoings, were the kids that were well-mannered and grew up to be the kindnest, most understanding and caring individuals I know.

The ones that were not spanked, were very out-of-control children where their parents simply looked the other way when "little Cathy" did things she should have been scolded for. Those are the same kids that got into drugs and stuff in high school... and even today as adults are still doing the drugs and thinking they can just do whatever they want to do without any consequences. In fact, one such person is my husband's cousin, who often drives drunk, won't get a job, just bums around doing whatever he feels like doing without any concern for others. He has been arrested several times for DWI and even caused a bad accident where one of his buddy's was killed. He went to prison over that. He is out now and "trying" to get his act together, but it boils down to... his mama didn't ever discipline him, especially never spanked him. He got away with everything he ever wanted. Do you see what lack of discipline can do to a person when they are allowed to think they can just do whatever they want without consequences? That's what I'm talking about. I understand that you probably disagree due to your different experience with people. That's okay.

You see, "proper" discipline means a lot of different things to different parents. For you and for others, spanking works. For me and for others, spanking is a cruel option.

I agree, proper discipline is made up of a variety of different things. The same action doesn't always apply to every situation and neither does the same action always apply to every kid.

For ME, spanking is the very least action applied to any wrongdoing. It is saved for ONLY those times when the child has repeatedly done the wrongdoing after being told about it before...yet still chooses to do it. Do I think spanking is a "cruel option"? No, and the reason for that is that there's nothing "cruel" about it when done properly and not in any abusive way, such as in anger or used too often, or used too strongly (causing injury). Sure, I agree that anything that causes injury to a child is cruel, but spanking does not cause injury to a child. It is just a form of punishment. If there are no consequences for wrongdoing, then kids just get away with doing whatever they want to do. As long as God's Word says spanking is the proper discipline, then I know there is nothing wrong with it. God is not cruel. He wants what's best for His children. Kids have to be trained how to behave. Good behavior is not something they are born with. That's my opinion.

A parent who wilfully causes their child pain is not doing them any favors.

How's that? Please read these scriptures:

Proverbs 13:24(KJV): "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

Proverbs 13:24(AMP): "He who spares his rod (of discipline) hates his son, but he who loves him diligently disciplines and punishes him early."​

Proverbs 22:15: "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him."

Proverbs 23:13-14: "Withold not discipline from the child, for if you strike and punish him with the (reed-like) rod, he will not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."


My belief is that God's will should be done, not man's will. That is just my Christian belief. If you do not agree, that's okay. You are free to believe whatever you want. It's your choice.

 

[LovingOne]

Loving one, thank you for pointing out that last line, I actually missed that one. I do speak to my children when they recieve a spanking. Though I do warn them, we don't discuss til after the spanking. I will tell them what they did wrong before the spanking, but we don't discuss until afterwards. The reasoning for that is that I want them to give me their attention while talking and if their attention is on the impending spank, then they aren't really going to hear what I am saying anyway.

That sounds good what you do. That is basically what we do too. We say a few words before the spanking just to make sure everyone knows what the spanking is about and so forth. And then the spanking takes place... and then we sit and discuss it further. All of this is done in a very calm and rational manner.... not in a parent's hot-headed reaction, as some seem to think spanking is all about...LOL. But this seems to be a very effective way of reaching our kids because it's only with the spanking that they realize how serious the matter is. If I just tell them something was wrong and not to do it again, they don't always grasp the seriousness of their wrongdoing and I can sometimes tell they have just shrugged the deed off and not really learned from it.

Thanks for your reply. Sounds like you have an excellent method.

 

[LovingOne]

MY GRANDPARENTS WEREN'T WRONG AT ALL IN THEIR METHODS.

No need to shout...LOL. My comment earlier was actually in agreement with your grandparents' methods. They evidently saw no need to spank you except for that one time. I was in agreement, not arguing. I think you misunderstood. All is okay here.

.

 

[higgs2]

Any kind of violence directed against children (and you can call it whatever 'soft' name you like, it's still violence), is child abuse, pure and simple.

Yes, absolutely! Hitting children is violence, regardless of what name you give it (swat, spank, smack etc...)

 

[LovingOne]

Yes, absolutely! Hitting children is violence, regardless of what name you give it (swat, spank, smack etc...)

Are you aware of what God's Word is on the subject? God's will should be done, not man's will.

Proverbs 13:24(KJV): "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

Proverbs 13:24(AMP): "He who spares his rod (of discipline) hates his son, but he who loves him diligently disciplines and punishes him early."​

Proverbs 22:15: "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him."

Proverbs 23:13-14: "Withold not discipline from the child, for if you strike and punish him with the (reed-like) rod, he will not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."

 

[jazzbird]

MOD HAT ON

Please keep in mind that the Parenting Forum is not a place for debate. Let's remember to speak to each other with respect and kindness. If we can't meet these requirements, the thread will be closed.

/MOD HAT OFF

 

[LovesOfMyLife]

Are you aware of what God's Word is on the subject? God's will should be done, not man's will.

Proverbs 13:24(KJV): "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes."

Proverbs 13:24(AMP): "He who spares his rod (of discipline) hates his son, but he who loves him diligently disciplines and punishes him early."​

Proverbs 22:15: "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him."

Proverbs 23:13-14: "Withold not discipline from the child, for if you strike and punish him with the (reed-like) rod, he will not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."

I'm sorry, but Proverbs are just that : proverbs, they are sayings kind of like fortune cookie sayings that were mostly written by Solomon. And I guess "beating children with the rod" is more in line with the Old Testament God than with the New Testament God. I much prefer to think of God as a loving
Father, rather than a vengeful angry God.

 

[Whitestone]

I'm sorry, but Proverbs are just that : proverbs, they are sayings kind of like fortune cookie sayings that were mostly written by Solomon. And I guess "beating children with the rod" is more in line with the Old Testament God than with the New Testament God. I much prefer to think of God as a loving
Father, rather than a vengeful angry God.

I think we all prefer the image of the image of the Loving God, but those of us that have strayed have felt His absence and the hurt of going where we should have not.

Solomon is probably the wisest man who has ever lived, and his wisdom was a gift from the Almighty, which is the same in the new testament as well as the old. The statements in Proverbs are a gift from God, whether we chose to listen to them or not, pretty much like the rest of the bible.

If you are able to correct your children without spanking that is wonderful. But I believe for some of us we would like keep spanking in our parental toolbox for correcting bad behavior, in a way that the Lord has advised.

Whitestone

 

[SojoMeg]

What do you think about spanking with an object (for example : a belt, a spoon, a switch, etc)?

You know how I feel about this, but how do YOU feel?

I don't believe in spanking, period. But for those who do, I leave them alone, except in the case of using objects to hit their children.

 

[LovesOfMyLife]

I think we all prefer the image of the image of the Loving God, but those of us that have strayed have felt His absence and the hurt of going where we should have not.

Solomon is probably the wisest man who has ever lived, and his wisdom was a gift from the Almighty, which is the same in the new testament as well as the old. The statements in Proverbs are a gift from God, whether we chose to listen to them or not, pretty much like the rest of the bible.

If you are able to correct your children without spanking that is wonderful. But I believe for some of us we would like keep spanking in our parental toolbox for correcting bad behavior, in a way that the Lord has advised.

Whitestone

When you stray from the Lord and His ways He doesn't reach down His Almighty hand and whap you with it! We feel our betrayal in much deeper ways. God has no need to use spanking as a disciplinary tool. His discipline is much more effective.

You're right : Solomon WAS wise. But he was also foolish. Proverbs may be a Gift from God, but they are simply sayings written down hundreds of years after they were inspired.

Hey, if you want to spank your children and that is what works for you and your children still know that you love them, then good for you. But to make parents who do not spank feel as though they are inferior to you, somehow, or that they are bad parents is just wrong. It is also wrong of non spanking parents to lump all spanking parents into the category of "abusers" because NOT ALL parents who spank are abusing their children. HOWEVER, the lines are blurry for some who feel that ANY time you hit your child to cause them pain (which it's already been established that it's the pain of a spanking that deters the behaviour) is abuse.

I agree, though, you cross the line when you hit your child with an object.

 

[Katydid]

I agree, though, you cross the line when you hit your child with an object.

So now you are advocating lumping all those who use an object into the category of abuse. Yet, you have never seen me use a switch and have no clue whether it is abuse or not. The point being, when I spank with a switch, I have no need to spank near as hard as you do with your hand. Trust me, I have done both, and the switch is much less painful. I am sorry, but your last blanket statement was just as bad as anyone saying that if you spank you are an abuser.

 

[LovesOfMyLife]

So now you are advocating lumping all those who use an object into the category of abuse. Yet, you have never seen me use a switch and have no clue whether it is abuse or not. The point being, when I spank with a switch, I have no need to spank near as hard as you do with your hand. Trust me, I have done both, and the switch is much less painful. I am sorry, but your last blanket statement was just as bad as anyone saying that if you spank you are an abuser.

But that is how I feel, Katydid. No I haven't ever seen you hit your children with a switch, but to me : hitting with an object is abusive. I've never spanked my son (I think hitting a child under 2 is cruel and unusual) and don't plan on it, but I couldn't justify EVER hitting him for any reason with an object. I've been accidentally hit with a willow branch and it HURT like you know what. I cannot imagine using one on a child ON PURPOSE.

Sorry, but that is how I feel. I think wooden spoons, belts, etc are uncalled for and it makes me sad.

 

[Whitestone]

When you stray from the Lord and His ways He doesn't reach down His Almighty hand and whap you with it! We feel our betrayal in much deeper ways. God has no need to use spanking as a disciplinary tool. His discipline is much more effective..

Yes but He will also smack those that need it, because it is the only way that they will listen. I can say this from experience.

You're right : Solomon WAS wise. But he was also foolish. Proverbs may be a Gift from God, but they are simply sayings written down hundreds of years after they were inspired..

If I understand you correctly, Proverbs were inspired by God, but since it took hundreds of years before they were written down they have lost some of the original inspiration? I ask you this question, is the Bible the word of God? As one Christian to another please read Gal 1:8 before discounting any scripture.

Hey, if you want to spank your children and that is what works for you and your children still know that you love them, then good for you. But to make parents who do not spank feel as though they are inferior to you, somehow, or that they are bad parents is just wrong. It is also wrong of non spanking parents to lump all spanking parents into the category of "abusers" because NOT ALL parents who spank are abusing their children. HOWEVER, the lines are blurry for some who feel that ANY time you hit your child to cause them pain (which it's already been established that it's the pain of a spanking that deters the behaviour) is abuse.

I agree, though, you cross the line when you hit your child with an object.

You have started three threads about spanking, I am curious what is not being or hasn't been answered yet. From what I have read, you repeatedly come to the point of being defensive, why is this? I don't think I have seen anyone tell you that you are a bad parent or what you want to do with your children is wrong, they have quoted the scripture that give us warnings and guidence in the use of correcting our children.

If someone is telling you that your are not correcting your children properly you have a couple options:

A) Tell them that it is none of their business.
B) Think about why they are saying this, and act upon your conclusions.
C) Avoid the people that are pestering you about your child rearing techniques.

With any option you have to have confidence in your decision. From your post I think you lack confidence in your parenting style and that is why you are seeking those that agree with you and becoming so defensive about the issue.

As for what other parents do to correct their children, if you think something is wrong intervene and/or report it to the aurthorities. For everyone else look to Matt. 7. Everyone has bad days and makes mistakes; they may even choose to use a different style of parenting than yourself. Judging them in generalities or on a single incident leads to an uninformed, limited, and possibly wrong judgment of someone.

Whitestone

 

[LovingOne]

What's the difference between using a tool and using your hand as a tool? You are still using something to spank a child with, regardless of the tool.

And I still don't see why some people have a problem knowing that spanking our children for their training is the Word of God. So what if Solomon wrote the words in the Bible, they are still GOD's Word. We should obey our Father in Heaven, whether it's something we want to do or not. God's will should be done, not man's will. That is my Christian belief -- to obey our Father and not just keep doing whatever WE feel is right or not. We should always follow the Lord's will, even if we don't agree with it or understand it.

Bow to our Father in Heaven always.

 

[Andry]

I think we as parents - ie. both 'sides' of the issue - should have a thorough understanding of what the 'rod of discipline' is, and what the Bible teaches, in context, on its uses. This 'rod', or shebet in Hebrew, is neutral. It can be used to strike and therefore kill, and it can be used to guide. One example is to use the shebet to strike down (and thus kill), idolaters. The other example used is a shepherd using he shebet to guide his sheep.

Further, I think we need to correctly understand what 'discipline' is. Because of all our diverse backgrounds and upbringing, have our 'own' definitions and experiences of being 'disciplined'.

But in truth, discipline is correction. Not punishment. Thus we break this issue a bit further:

On the one hand, how do we correct? Do we know how to correct?

On the other hand, how do we punish? Do we know how to punish?

But correction isn't punishment, and ergo, punishment isn't correction. So when do we correct, and when do we punish?

That's the tricky part for me.

 

[Katydid]

But correction isn't punishment, and ergo, punishment isn't correction. So when do we correct, and when do we punish?

ahhh but...on the other side of this...

Correction does not have to be void of punishment just as punishment is not necessarily void of correction. So then the question could become...

How do we balance the correction with the punishment?

 

[Andry]

ahhh but...on the other side of this...

Correction does not have to be void of punishment just as punishment is not necessarily void of correction. So then the question could become...

How do we balance the correction with the punishment?

Geez Katydid......I thought that's what I said?

When my son enters hockey this fall, I expect his coach to discipline him and the rest of his team. This means of course teaching new skills, but also correcting these new skills - often repetitively, over and over again. I will not be expecting the coach to punish the team for something that they are trying to learn.

But if the kids are completely goofing off and/or not listening to their coach, then punishment might be in order. And of course the coach has no legal right to spank - which is not my point here. But he can punish in a variety of ways (such as more laps around the rink, no Slurpees afterwards, etc.)

So what I'm driving at is, there is a difference between correction and punishment. And, as you said, there is a balance between the two.

 

[LovingOne]

All in all, I think everyone should just pray to the Lord when in doubt over what to do in disciplining their children. God provides the answer and guidance us parents need IF we seek Him about it.

In fact, I've pointed out a few times God's Word on the subject of disciplining our children. That is God's answer. Many times, in reply to a prayer, God will direct parents to those scriptures. We, as humans, cannot let our own will get in the way of what God wills.

Pray about it.

 

[Katydid]

Geez Katydid......I thought that's what I said?

you know me, I can never be simple. Yes, that is what you said, but I said it in a different way. Sometimes that can make all the difference in how something is interpreted. I don't know, it is one of my quirks, I like to see the issue from all sides.

 

[LovingOne]

Boy do I feel ignored...LOL. I've posted 2 messages here lately and people are just talking around me as though I'm not even here. Not complaining about it though, I just think it odd.

I thought my advice was good...eh? To pray to the Lord about it? That is correct that, as Christians, we should never judge others, but gently guide them in what the Lord says on the subject. Just my 2 cents.