Last one, I promise ;) FOR ALL PARENTS RE: spanking

[forgivenmuch]

i can speak for myself, i choose not to spank. i have done so much research on the matter before my son was born. and i see that not spanking was the best choice for me.

 

[LovingOne]

Loving One,

wow, you posted so much on this thread! I learned some new insights from your comments. Plus, I want to say I'm impressed how you kept such a cool head when people starting losing their tempers....

Awwww, thanks for the compliment. I say the Lord is the one to thank for that "cool head" of mine. I have prayed to Him numerous times to keep me calm and cool with others...and He has not only listened to my prayers, but has answered! I have a specific little prayer just for that and I'd love to share it with you and the others. Here is that prayer:

"Lord, I choose to put on the helmet of salvation today to guard my
thinking. I desire to have godly thoughts, ones that please You and
are in keeping with my identity in Christ. (Romans 12:2) Thank You,
Father, for the breastplate of righteousness which helps protect
my heart and emotions from the influence of the Enemy. (Proverbs 4:23)
Help me establish godly affections. (Galatians 5:22) I want to
respond based on my being Your child, not based on my own desires.
Thank you also for the girdle of truth. I desire my whole life to be
encircled with Your truth -- I want to know it, live by it, and share
it with others. Help me set aside time each day to meditate on Scripture.
Father, wherever You send me, I want to wear the sandals of peace
and be a peacemaker. (Matthew 5:9) Use me to bring others into
reconciliation with You through the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Help me
influence Christians to resolve their conflicts and become united in
Him. Amen"

But that's not what I want to post about. Loving One, you mentioned a few times that when you spank your children, that you aren't really causing pain. It's more the "action" then the "force". Well, I have been sitting here trying to guess how a "painless" spanking from my mom or dad would have affected me (if that's all they used; no "painful" spankings to compare it to). I cannot say for sure, but I'm leaning towards thinking I would have been relieved. Something along the lines of "oh good, now I can do what I want to do, because it doesn't hurt." Your post definitely got me thinking. Is it possible to punish a child if it's not "painful" to them? By that last statement I am thinking of more than spanking. If mom took away the television, I could have cared less. I wanted to be outside or reading, not watching TV. Since that punishment was "painless", mom's "action" would not have affected me (at least, I don't think it would have). So, in the same vein of logic doesn't the "action" of spanking have to be "painful" to some degree? I remember after a spanking experiencing maybe thirty seconds of "ouch, that hurts/stings" sensation. The action and the pain together got my attention and led me to the conclusion of "let's not do that again". Any thoughts on this? Maybe your children are simply more compliant than I was as a child? And less prone to try to figure you out to get what they want? Thanks for any replies! Since you have mentioned that God's ideas mean much much more than our "opinions", I am very interested in what you have to say.

P.S I have an awesome relationship with both parents

First, I want to say that's terrific that you have such an awesome relationship with both of your parents.

Okay for your questions, and I must say they get a chuckle out of me because I can see your point. And you are probably right about one thing -- my children. Well let me be more precise. A painless spanking works well with my 4-year old. The reason for this is because he's so flustered over the mere fact that he's getting a spanking that I've learned the actual spanking itself doesn't even have to be painful for him to get a punishment out of it. I can just tell him he's going to be spanked for a wrongdoing and he immediately cries and gets upset as though I've spanked him. And it's not a "put-on" either. He truly is upset by it. And even though I know just telling him he's going to get a spanking seems to have the same affect on him as a spanking, I do go ahead and carry out the spanking because it wouldn't be right for me to tell him I'm going to do it and then not do it. I must follow through even though he's already reacted as though I've already spanked him. But for the most part, I just do a tiny little pat on the rear for him and he's bawling as though I hit him with a switch. He doesn't normally over-dramatize things in this way, but I think he reacts this way because it truly bothers him that he's done something displeasing to Mom or Dad. I know this painless spanking will not be effective for him forever but it does work well with him for the time being and I've seen it work well with other kids too (by other parents).

Now for my 12-year old, this doesn't work obviously...LOL. My daughter does have to get some measure of pain from a spanking we give her. She responds well to that and also groundings (when we take away her cell phone or won't let her go to her friends' houses...or do other fun things). Those all work very effectively, but sometimes we do spank her instead of grounding because sometimes she gets to the point of dealing too well with that form of punishment (so it gets where it doesn't seem like a punishment at all). So that's where a spanking comes in. Still, we rarely spank her. And even though hers are not the painless ones we give our 4-year old, they are not very painful either, as we've noticed too that she seems more upset by the fact that Mom and Dad are displeased with her behavior over something than being upset over that little bit of temporary pain. I mean, she's old enough that we can talk to her about it (we've asked for her thoughts on spanking) and she's told us that the spanking, even as slight as it is, is worse for her because it sort of hits an emotional spot with her and she feels more punished and shameful over what she's done than if we ground her. She also confirmed that it's not the pain from the spanking that gets to her, but the fact that Mom and Dad have felt the need to spank her. She said that with a spanking she knows and understands that she's done something really bad and it helps her realize this and that she doesn't want to do that bad thing again. She has confirmed that she doesn't stop the wrongdoing because of the spanking (because she says it's truly nothing as far as pain goes), but she doesn't want to go through the emotional hurting that comes along with it -- the realization that she's done something THAT bad.

So, there are different techniques in spanking both our children because of their age differences and how each responds to it. Basically, I've discovered that both feel an intense sorrow for knowing they've displeased Mom & Dad, for doing the wrong deed, even before the spanking has occurred. That tells me, spanking has more to it than just a tiny moment of pain (or even no pain, as in my son's case). There's more to it. It goes deeper and hits a nerve with my kids that really sends the message down deep. And I've also learned they tend to not forget it (and don't do the wrong deed again).... whereas with groundings or time-outs, they both tend to repeat the deed at another time. It's like the message of "don't do that again" doesn't quite get across to them, even when we have discussions with them and tell them they shouldn't do it again and why. There has to be something emotional that goes deep within them to really get that point across and make it stick. Otherwise, they'll just keep repeating the same wrongdoings over and over. At least that's what I've learned from my own children. It may be different with other kids. I know not all kids react in the same way to everything.

I have learned from speaking with my 12-year old, and even with my 4-year old to a degree, that spankings get the message across to them better (don't forget my husband and I both have discussions about the wrongdoing along with a spanking...we don't just spank and that's it). Also, they both are aware of what the Bible says on the subject and they both have expressed knowledge of displeasing God with their wrongdoings. So that is part of the "emotional turmoil" they feel. My oldest child has told me that she doesn't get that same feeling of displeasing us or displeasing God with a grounding as she does with a spanking. The spanking seems to make it more real for her or helps her to realize how serious it is and shouldn't be taken lightly. I think that's why it's more effective in some cases. Of course, again, that's just what I've learned from my own kids and how they react. It may be different with other kids since not all kids react the same way to everything. Maybe that helps you understand the "painless" spanking since I go into detail about the emotional turmoil kids experience. Okay, this is getting long enough so I'll hush. I tend to ramble sometimes.

PS: I wish you a Happy Birthday!!!

 

[LovingOne]

A majority of Christians believe themselves to be "New Testament Christians," like me, meaning that the Old Testament is a learning tool but we are to take it with a grain of salt. After all, Jesus stated that the Old Covenant died on the cross with Him. That doesn[t mean that the word is any less valid, it just means that our laws and governing words come from the New Testament more so than the Old. HTH

Thanks for explaining this for me. I understand it better now.
I don't necessarily agree with it, but I understand the view on it now.

 

[Beth1231]

To Loving One: the length of your post made me go "wow" and show my hubby Thank you for your response. I can also see your points. I will watch for the "don't want to displease Mom and Dad thing" in my little ones. For the record, I do remember going from rebellion to that emotional pain of not wanting to hurt my parents around eleven. Thanks for reminding me. It made my confusion clearer.
To the "God is a person of the NT and ditched the OT" person: WHAT?????? All I can think of is the awesome chapters of Psalms and Proverbs that are clearly annointed and speak to us today. The powerful stories of faith of Abraham, Moses, Esther, Ruth...so many! Some are summarized in the NT by the way....
It's a lack of understanding to say something like the OT is irrelevant. Or worse, parts of it are irrevelant simply because I am uncomfortable with it. Yes, I know Jesus is the new Covenant. He made it clear that the laws on divorce, eating and drinking and washing and some other things no longer apply. He even explained why they were in affect during the OT "because of the hardness of their hearts" and other reasons. Ok, ok, I know this isn't a debate forum, so I will stop there. Just consider carefully before you try to throw out Scriptures on discipline simply because they make you uncomfortable. Discipline is no fun for mom or dad or the child. But a loving parent will do it. Ok, I'm done

 

[Marie D]

I'm not a parent yet (I'm engaged) but as I still live at home with my parents technically I'm still subject to their discipline. They believe in corporal punishment and generally used a riding crop on my bother, sister and myself. I think their view was that a punishment shouldn't just be 5 minutes of fear and pain but should hurt for a few days afterwards to remind us of what we did wrong and need to do right in the future.
IMHO they're probably right in this and unless my fiance has different views, which I dont think he does, we'll take the same approach with any children that God is kind enough to bless us with.

 

[kingzjewel]

i try and take my cues on discipline straight from the SOURCE. He says that He disciplines those He loves. so i discipline the one i love. in His inspired words of wisdom He says "spare the rod, spoil the child" and therefore i do not spoil my child. there are many ways to get through to a child, but mine responds to firm voices, threats of spankings, and actual spankings. why? i dont really know why he is stubborn and hard headed * whistles and looks away * , but i do know that if i had never been brought up by these same principles i wouldnt be who i am today.

http://christianparty.8m.com/bibldisc.htm

 

[Andry]

i try and take my cues on discipline straight from the SOURCE. He says that He disciplines those He loves. so i discipline the one i love. in His inspired words of wisdom He says "spare the rod, spoil the child" and therefore i do not spoil my child. there are many ways to get through to a child, but mine responds to firm voices, threats of spankings, and actual spankings. why? i dont really know why he is stubborn and hard headed * whistles and looks away * , but i do know that if i had never been brought up by these same principles i wouldnt be who i am today.

http://christianparty.8m.com/bibldisc.htm

Nobody would disagree with you that we ought to discipline. The issues are:

1. What is discipline?
2. How do we discipline?

For many of us, in our experience of being 'disciplined', it meant punishment. But discipline means correction; it does not mean punishment. For clarity, punishment is not a form of discipine.

So there is discipline, and there is punishment. We cannot casually interchange them to mean the same things. And in our parenting toolbox, there are methods of discipline, and methods of punishment. And we use them as we discern to be appropriate for the child, for the behavior (or misbehavior), in context with the circumstances.

Second, nobody is disputing the Scripture says "spare the rod, spoil the child". The issues are:

1. Do we know the hermeneutics, the interpretation, of that Scripture (and all other Scriptures of the uses of the "rod" - or "shebet" in Hebrew - and not just the 'parenting' Scriptures of the shebet.

2. Do we understand the exegesis, the application in its proper context, of those Scriptures in our lives?

The uses of the rod in Scripture are either to strike (which will injure or kill), or to guide (like guiding sheep). The link you posted fail to articulate that. The rod can be used to strike. That same rod can also be used to guide, which the author of the link coveniently omitted....hence improper exegesis.

So the questions are, must I use the rod in the context of 'spanking', or may I also use the rod in the context of guiding?

If you believe you must use the rod in the context of 'spanking' (And note: I'm not talking about, or suggesting that, spanking is abuse or its aim is to injure), and doing that will prevent your child from being spoiled, then by all means.

But, if I use the rod in the context of guiding sheep, and that does not spoil my child, wouldn't that be ok too?

 

[LovesOfMyLife]

To the "God is a person of the NT and ditched the OT" person: WHAT?????? All I can think of is the awesome chapters of Psalms and Proverbs that are clearly annointed and speak to us today. The powerful stories of faith of Abraham, Moses, Esther, Ruth...so many! Some are summarized in the NT by the way....

All I am saying is that as New Testament Christians, we live our lives by the New Testament, taking the Old Testament as a teaching tool, something to be learned from but also taken with a grain of salt. After all, the God of the OT was a vengeful, angry, and grudge-bearing God.

It's a lack of understanding to say something like the OT is irrelevant. Or worse, parts of it are irrevelant simply because I am uncomfortable with it. Yes, I know Jesus is the new Covenant. He made it clear that the laws on divorce, eating and drinking and washing and some other things no longer apply. He even explained why they were in affect during the OT "because of the hardness of their hearts" and other reasons. Ok, ok, I know this isn't a debate forum, so I will stop there. Just consider carefully before you try to throw out Scriptures on discipline simply because they make you uncomfortable. Discipline is no fun for mom or dad or the child. But a loving parent will do it. Ok, I'm done

I think YOU have a lack of understanding in what I actually said. Please don't read any more into what I said than what is there. Disciplining does not make me uncomfortable, the scriptures about "the rod," IMHO, are somewhat out of context for necessarily spanking your children. There ARE other ways to discipline besides spanking. Like I said before : if you do, you're not a bad parent, and if you don't you're not a bad parent. There are PLENTY of bad parents in this world who DO spank and plenty who DON'T.

 

[Beth1231]

After all, the God of the OT was a vengeful, angry, and grudge-bearing God.

Ok, this line simply is too much. Consider God's mercy in not wiping out all of mankind but instead talking to Noah. His faithfulness to Abraham even after he lied to Pharoah. The way he brought about justice to Joseph's brothers and saved an entire nation from famine. Think about the story of Esther. What about Ruth, the one descended from the incest of Lot with his daughters? Surely a God of revenge would not forget about something like that? I encourage you to really search for His lovingkindness in the OT. Also, God did not transform into a "ok, you can do whatever you want and I won't discipline you" God just because Jesus came to earth. Read James. He is not a wimp and his words are inspired. God chastens those he loves. Genesis through Revelation. But He also redeems and shows mercy and grace. Definitely through all 66 books. He is our ultimate example of what a father (and mother) should look like.
I am aware there are other ways of disciplining. I have been on the other side of the hand of discipline many times as a Christian. I have felt God's displeasure and I have suffered the consequences of my decisions to disobey Him. My parents taught me about this part of God's principles when I was a child. They made sure I knew what authority was and how rebellion was dealt with.
On a side note, I am completely disgusted with how many children are being raised now with not a single spanking in their lives. I have babysat and nannied these kids and the "I'm in control and you can't do anything about it" I see in their eyes bothers me quite a bit. They believe they can reason their way out of obeying. They are sure that they can gain the upper hand. I feel like telling their parents to toughen up before it's far too late.....
Daniel's mommy, I know we don't agree on this point. But if you have ever taken care of a two year old who is not disciplined, you can see to some degree what I mean. They are in charge and that's the way it is. I have to constantly think of ways to keep them smiling and entertained and if they decide to try something unsafe, I must reason with them. But the disciplined toddler. Wow, they are such a joy to take care of. They have been trained to obey and their babysitters and teachers and eventually employers will benefit. Maybe something to consider since you surely are going to need babysitters in the future.

 

[Andry]

"After all, the God of the OT was a vengeful, angry, and grudge-bearing God."

I disagreed with that statement too, but didn't want to sidetrack the thread. Suffice to say, God changes not. Not yesterday, not today, not tomorrow.

In addition to that though, I'm not a "New Testament" Christian. I'm a Christian. Believing both the "Old" and "New" testaments. It’s man who decided there would be an Old Testament and a New Testament. There is an old covenant and a new covenant, but there is not an Old Testament and a New Testament. It’s all one testament, it’s all one book, it’s all one story that revolves around the Christ and around the Cross. One is before it, looking up to it, and one is after it, looking back to it, but it’s all one wonderful story that’s built around the Christ.

 

[indagroove]

We still spank our 7yo , but she rarely escalates an incident to that point. We have the special wood spoon of discipline hanging in the kitchen, and usually a slightest motion to it will squelch any uprising occuring in the child. Most incidences are disrespecting their mother, and talking back. We DO NOT use our hands for punishing. A wooden spoon across the rearend is all we ever needed. Did have to use a belt once on the 14yo when she was younger - ONCE.

The 14yo is too old to spank. So punishment comes in the form of, grounding, no TV, no computer, no phone, no stereo.


My mother had a huge (18" long) cherry paddle hanging in her kitchen. But I never had it used on me. I can vaguely remember getting swatted with a wooden spoon when I was young. Usually spankings only need executed in extreme cases, a few times. Most children learn fast.

With all that said, I know there are cases where no amount of disciple is going to change the child. Some kids are out of control, and their parents are at wit's end trying to figure out what God wants them to do.

 

[If Not For Grace]

The LACK of spanking is why Americans have the most overcrowded jails in the world.

 

[setzie]

What do you think about spanking with an object (for example : a belt, a spoon, a switch, etc)?

You know how I feel about this, but how do YOU feel?

I am not a parent but spanking with or without an object is no good at all. It harms a child, that's for sure.

The LACK of spanking is why Americans have the most overcrowded jails in the world.

IMO most of the people who are in jail were treated badly when they were children. I think most of them suffered from physical abuse.

 

[Beth1231]

I apologize for going on a little tangent and changing the thread.....

On the jail thing...
If you were to go into jail and talk to some of the men there (like Chuck Colson), you would find out that most of them wished their fathers loved them enough to steer them in the right direction when they were young. Today, little kids are allowed to do whatever they please as long as it's not dangerous. A two or three year old can blatantly defy mom (or even dad!) and know there is no danger of a spanking. Most kids aren't even aware they exist!
Quick story (because now I'm all stirred up over this)...I was babysitting a four year old girl and her two year old brother. She decided that she wanted to "ride" her huge teddybear down the stairs (about twenty of them!). I, of course, got pretty stern and told her she couldn't, it wasn't safe, etc. Finally, because it was turning into a physical struggle, I called for her Dad. Well, he comes down the hall and says "no, honey we can't do that. You need to listen to Beth." She didn't show healthy fear of dad in the slightest. In fact, as soon as Dad turned his back on her, she was silently fighting me again to ride teddy down the steps. I was almost in shock. I couldn't believe a four year old didn't have more respect for authority (especially her dad) than that. I told my husband later that if my babysitter had called for my dad, I would have scooted off to my room super quick because I would have known I was in trouble for defying the babysitter enough that she had to call for him! What is happening to our kids these days? I bet a million bucks that that little girl wouldn't have tried that stunt if a wooden spoon was hanging on a nail in the kitchen to remind her that she isn't in charge. Ok, enough ranting from me, I suppose...

 

[setzie]

We'll have to disagree on that one
"Reenactment of childhood victimization is the major cause of violence in our society.
·Numerous-studies have documented that most violent criminals were physically or sexually abused as children. (Groth, 1979; Seghorn et al, 1987)"
Source: http://www.annafoundation.org/wchac-stats.html

The thing with spanking is that it can harm a child. No matter how soft it is. Even if you just threaten a child with spanking the child may suffer. Often a child can not understand the reason for the punishing. It may stop doing things because of the spanking, but it won't stop doing them because the child realizes that it was wrong. It will stop doing forbidden things because of the spanking.

 

[Beth1231]

We'll have to disagree on that one
"Reenactment of childhood victimization is the major cause of violence in our society.
·Numerous-studies have documented that most violent criminals were physically or sexually abused as children. (Groth, 1979; Seghorn et al, 1987)"
Source: http://www.annafoundation.org/wchac-stats.html

"Child victimization" is not a spanking given by a parent who loves their child and is teaching them to obey. Violent criminals got thrown across the room, molested, burned and all kinds of other atrocitries. The difference is like scolding your child because they ran across the street without holding your hand from screaming at your child and tossing them back in front of the truck!

The thing with spanking is that it can harm a child. No matter how soft it is. Even if you just threaten a child with spanking the child may suffer. Often a child can not understand the reason for the punishing. It may stop doing things because of the spanking, but it won't stop doing them because the child realizes that it was wrong. It will stop doing forbidden things because of the spanking.

It's supposed to hurt (at least a little) to get the message across that the parent is serious about the child stopping whatever it is they were doing. And believe me, a threat works wonders for some kids. The only "harm" is the adrenaline that pumps through their system and makes them realize that backtalking or disobeying is not such a great plan after all. And kids are much smarter than it seems you are giving them credit for. A three year old can clearly tell when mom and dad don't want him to do something. He is absolutely bright enough to decide to rebel and test who is in charge. Anyone with any experience at all with kids knows this! If the parent taught them about rebellion and obedience, they know what they are doing is wrong (disobeying mom and dad). They know why they are getting a spanking (a smart mom and dad will summarize though before the punishment) and they know they deserved it! And...although this may seem hard to believe....kids respect mom and dad for earning the right to steer them. And if mom and dad remain consistent, that respect will mature and the child will someday thank their parents for having the guts to spank them when they deserved it. I thanked my Dad for being consistent and firm and loving with my brother and I when I was in college. It was as I was driving home from another childcare situation. The kids were completely out of control and I could do nothing about it. I have never appreciated my parents decision to discipline us more than that day. Don't be so quick to accept what society tells us. Society is interested in doing what they want to do, with no one telling them what is "right" or "wrong". A society that is in rebellion against God is most definitely going to be against parents who are trying to instill obedience and reverence for God in their children.

 

[setzie]

It's supposed to hurt (at least a little) to get the message across that the parent is serious about the child stopping whatever it is they were doing. And believe me, a threat works wonders for some kids. The only "harm" is the adrenaline that pumps through their system and makes them realize that backtalking or disobeying is not such a great plan after all. And kids are much smarter than it seems you are giving them credit for. A three year old can clearly tell when mom and dad don't want him to do something. He is absolutely bright enough to decide to rebel and test who is in charge. Anyone with any experience at all with kids knows this! If the parent taught them about rebellion and obedience, they know what they are doing is wrong (disobeying mom and dad). They know why they are getting a spanking (a smart mom and dad will summarize though before the punishment) and they know they deserved it!

They know why they are getting spanked, yes. Because they have done something bad. But they don't know why the thing is actually bad. Small kids don't do anything bad on purpose, so you basically punish them because they don't know something.
I am not against setting boundaries, I rather think that spanking or shouting is by far the worst possible way of doing it.

And...although this may seem hard to believe....kids respect mom and dad for earning the right to steer them. And if mom and dad remain consistent, that respect will mature and the child will someday thank their parents for having the guts to spank them when they deserved it. I thanked my Dad for being consistent and firm and loving with my brother and I when I was in college. It was as I was driving home from another childcare situation. The kids were completely out of control and I could do nothing about it. I have never appreciated my parents decision to discipline us more than that day.

Fair enough. I am not saying that the effects of spanking are the same for every child. But even in your case ( in every case ) I believe that it actually harmed you. I believe that there is always a better option than spanking.

Don't be so quick to accept what society tells us. Society is interested in doing what they want to do, with no one telling them what is "right" or "wrong". A society that is in rebellion against God is most definitely going to be against parents who are trying to instill obedience and reverence for God in their children.

I have not listened to society on that issue. I am speaking from my own experience. I've also spoken to many people about that, and not one of them was of the opinion that the spanking they experienced in their childhood was good.
I am actually astonished about some things that are written in this thread. If you spank an adult you can get punished for that. How can it be OK then to spank a child?

I find it really sad that some victims of physical abuse think that it was good to be spanked by their parents. And the same victims tend to use the same methods on their children and effectively become wrongdoers.

Think twice before you abuse your children.

 

[Whitestone]

They know why they are getting spanked, yes. Because they have done something bad. But they don't know why the thing is actually bad. Small kids don't do anything bad on purpose, so you basically punish them because they don't know something.
I am not against setting boundaries, I rather think that spanking or shouting is by far the worst possible way of doing it.

From what I read on this thread, people don't set boundaries with spanking or shouting, spanking and shouting are just the consequences of failing to follow the boundaries set.

Fair enough. I am not saying that the effects of spanking are the same for every child. But even in your case ( in every case ) I believe that it actually harmed you. I believe that there is always a better option than spanking.

That very well could be, but God specified the use of a rod in punishment in hopes of saving a child from sin, sometimes parents don't have time to think of a creative punishment so it's always good to have a tried and trusted fall back.

I have not listened to society on that issue. I am speaking from my own experience. I've also spoken to many people about that, and not one of them was of the opinion that the spanking they experienced in their childhood was good.
I am actually astonished about some things that are written in this thread. If you spank an adult you can get punished for that. How can it be OK then to spank a child?

In most cases you are not subject to society on issues, however we are always subject to God, He told us to use the rod in correction if we love our child, but out of love be careful with discipline.

We don't spank other adults because they are not our responsibility, however I have yelled, chided, and insulted friends when they were doing something stupid, these actions could be considered abusive, but I think keeping them healthy, safe, and out of jail is more important.

I find it really sad that some victims of physical abuse think that it was good to be spanked by their parents. And the same victims tend to use the same methods on their children and effectively become wrongdoers.

Yes this is sad, the spankings were probably the most attention some of these kids got out of their parents. I would equate this to children that are sexually abused and grow up being extremely promiscuous, because that is how they think love works or what love is. These things happen not because of spanking, but from people that really should not have been parents in the first place.

Think twice before you abuse your children.

This was necessary.

Setzie, from your position I can only guess that you were abused or someone that is/was very close to you was abused. For that I am very sorry.

However saying not to spank can hurt alot of parents when they have extinguished all methods that they can think of or are available to them.

Personally I have seen what lack of discipline does to a child. I used to work with a youth organization. If a child could not follow the rules, we were very lenient and forgiving since the program was targeted at "at risk" youth, they were eventually asked to leave and not come back. The child's inability to follow rules and understand cause and effect, caused them to be excluded from a fun and healthy social environment. From all the children I dealt with being excluded was worse than being disliked, and usually had severe ramifications as they grew up.

Now for the clincher whose fault is it that the child is now being excluded, the child's or the parent's.

 

[LovesOfMyLife]

I apologize for going on a little tangent and changing the thread.....

On the jail thing...
If you were to go into jail and talk to some of the men there (like Chuck Colson), you would find out that most of them wished their fathers loved them enough to steer them in the right direction when they were young. Today, little kids are allowed to do whatever they please as long as it's not dangerous. A two or three year old can blatantly defy mom (or even dad!) and know there is no danger of a spanking. Most kids aren't even aware they exist!
Quick story (because now I'm all stirred up over this)...I was babysitting a four year old girl and her two year old brother. She decided that she wanted to "ride" her huge teddybear down the stairs (about twenty of them!). I, of course, got pretty stern and told her she couldn't, it wasn't safe, etc. Finally, because it was turning into a physical struggle, I called for her Dad. Well, he comes down the hall and says "no, honey we can't do that. You need to listen to Beth." She didn't show healthy fear of dad in the slightest. In fact, as soon as Dad turned his back on her, she was silently fighting me again to ride teddy down the steps. I was almost in shock. I couldn't believe a four year old didn't have more respect for authority (especially her dad) than that. I told my husband later that if my babysitter had called for my dad, I would have scooted off to my room super quick because I would have known I was in trouble for defying the babysitter enough that she had to call for him! What is happening to our kids these days? I bet a million bucks that that little girl wouldn't have tried that stunt if a wooden spoon was hanging on a nail in the kitchen to remind her that she isn't in charge. Ok, enough ranting from me, I suppose...

Spankings are not the only form of discipline, nor should they be. I applaud the successful parents whose children DON'T know what a spanking is. I hope to be one of those parents.

Children without discipline aren't Blessings, you're right....but children who fear their parents aren't Blessings either. I don't want my children to be afraid of me and my husband, I want them to want to please us out of love.

But, to each their own. Spank or don't spank, but there is no need to make your children fear you.

 

[Beth1231]

It would be a wonderful world indeed if every child was super compliant from age two and made the decision on his own to obey his parents because he loved them! *laughing* Unfortunately, this type of child may be one in a few dozen (if you're lucky). However, if you teach your two year old about authority and discipline and how much mom and dad really do love him and want him to grow up correctly.....well, then hopefully by the end of the teen years, junior will realize how much mom and dad have done for him and will choose to respect and honor them because he loves them. I started thinking along that vein around the age of fourteen. This is the pattern I have seen, anyway......
And on the "fear" thing. Think of the verse "Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom". The word can be read as "reverence" also. I'm talking about a healthy fear. The kind of healthy fear that an adult experiences when he is going 80 mph and oops...there's a cop behind me. That kind of fear is a good thing! You know you are going to get a speeding ticket and it is going to hurt! If that four year old that I spoke of earlier had that healthy fear, she would have never tried to fight me to ride her teddy bear down a flight of stairs! Just another thing to consider, I suppose. If you, as a parent can instill that healthy sense of "oh, I better not do that" without a spanking, then that's great. I want your notes, however